Full splice jig

[Dave38]

So Dave,
Structural integrity is the only point that you don't agree with. As the Canadian said about wood joinery, have you seen a high perfomance shaft come apart because of the glue line? Do you mean that the X, 314, OB1 have an expiration date? They are staking their reputation as well as millions of dollars on flat wood joinery with todays great adhesives. The shaft has most of the force vectors aligned axially with the glue lines. In your opinion, this is not structurally sound. I am sure that a few of the high performance shafts have failed at a glue line but not because of the design or adhesive. More of a process failure escape. These shafts have anywhere from 6 to 54 glue lines each. The Canadian design can have approx. 4.5 square inches of surface contact to bond the 4 pieces together. That is more than adequate to displace the axial forces it will ever see.

First, lets point out that the length of the joint we have been talking about is for the first 10" from the joint we have 4 glue lines AT an angle that when frontal force is applied it pushes those gluelines outward, not inward, and then the rest of the butt has a glueline about 19" straight down the middle. Lined up with that from the front is a 15" or so long 'wedge' of a forearm that the force of play pushes against. Now introduce a weight pin from the bottom, let's say about 4" long, right down the middle of the butt which shortens the glue line, and due to heat of drilling/boring it out, may have a bad effect on the strength of the bond afterwards. Now your straight glueline holding 4 side pieces together is actually about 12-13" long. I'm not a structual engineer, but know enough that that isn't the best setup. Now let's also remember that this is in a builder's shop without the 1.2 million dollar assembly equipment/presses, expensive design teams, etc. and is built using normal epoxies ( read this link...http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=182588)
And you are comparing this to a 29" long laminated shaft that IS built using 1.2 million dollar equipment, and glues/epoxies that we cannot get which may use heatbonding, or other catalistic procedures that make for a superior bond, and you want me to believe that it's the same situation???
You state that in a laminated shaft the forces are aligned axially, you are correct with that, but concerning a butt constructed in the way described in Candien's post, That is not the case, you are forgeting the first 12" or so are wedgeshaped spreading outward, and have a hole drilled at the other end for a weightbolt. The high tech lam. shafts don't have that, they have 29" of straightness, so to compare the 2 cases as equals is, IMO, is a mistake.
This is my opinion, and I may be incorrect as I'm not an engineer, but I don't believe most of us on here are.
I was just working on a repair for a friend that is a Mizerak cue that has an patchwork of various angled wood pieces glued together with 2 slabs on the outside. It looks great, but a lot of the gluelines for the wood pieces are loosed up. It came in for a new shaft due to the old one being warped, but the pin wasn't in straight either, So I removed and replace the pin, and when screwing in the new pin, even though I had a glue relief on the pin, epoxy was running out of every seam on the forearm the length of the hole for the pin. I talked to the owner and he said it did have a buzz sound when hitting the balls. I used an eyeloop and found it had cracks all along the gluelines in the forearm. Glues can do alot, but it cannot make up for a lack of a mechanical bond for extended usage or time IMO. Wood can and will either shrink or swell. In the case of laminated shafts, the layers are usually very thin, so much that the glues can actually pentatrte all the way thru the layer, making an impregnated wood shaft. This design doens't have that, it's just a thin layer of glue. To me it's only common sense, This design may work for a time, but a failure is down the road. just my opinion.
Dave

 

[Dave38]

And now back to our regular programming. To the original poster, First, sorry for hijacking, I got sidetracked. And, no one at this time has a splice jig for sale. As mentioned, some have mentioned working on one, I believe someone used the word: a 'feeler' was asked, but no other info has come from that camp since....:wink:
I look forward to have the opportunity to buy one, but who knows when.
Dave

 

[tableman]

I'm thinking more along the lines of a jig for a bandsaw maybe with an indexing 3 jaw chuck similar to a Hightower. Just pondering on ideas.

 

[LGSM3]

well, with all the brilliant fellows sworming around you would think they could have made one by now! Guess beating a thread to death for 6 months is easier though.

 

[Canadian cue]

I would like to apologize to Tableman if my contributions to this thread diverted it from the original purpose. This was not my intention, I was simply throwing out an idea that I thought was related.
So can I ask why you dont build yourself a couple of jigs? Once you have calculated the angles then it would be just a matter of building two taper jigs. You could have it ride along a fence on your bandsaw. Perhaps incorporate a stop so as you dont over ride your centre mark. You will have to do some research to find the best blade becuase it will be a comprimize between having a good finish and a straight cut. The wider blades cut straighter but tend to be coarse finish.
IMHO the reason you have no one stepping up to your request is that building fullsplice involves alot of tweeking to get everything working just right and probably a few trade secrets. Not many people are willing to give that kind of info away. It isnt worth the profits of selling a few jigs.
As well the full splice market is still being held by only a few individuals so I am sure those people would rather it stay that way. Most of the technology sarownding cue building is now open knoledge or at least not that hard to find but full splice is still fairly well gaurded. I may be wrong but this is the impression I get.
Any how if you come up with some angles I would be more than willing to help you design a jig and draw them up in cad. It isnt rocket science, we are after all just building sticks lol.

 

[pdcue]

This was not the point of my idea. Who cares what it is defined as. I called it a full splice because it was the closest process to it. That been said I would like to explain my logic here. The biggest disadvantage to a conventional full splice is the difficulty in achieveing an accurate and smooth finish on the inside of the fingers of the male end of the splice. The method I was sugesting is a solution to this problem because you can mill the faces of the joint. Now if you compare a full splice to a jointed cue the advantage the full splice has is that where the wood is being joined it is all long grain. With a cue built with joints you are relying on the pin and a tenon for its strength. One of the more basic rules of wood working is to never relly on end grain for strength and to incorporate as much long grain to your joinery. So as I see it my method is all long grain and if you use good adhesive where it is joined it will actualy be stronger than the material itself. Has anyone seen a laminated shaft break apart because the glue gave way? So I believe the strength issue is a non issue.
To conclude, I am not saying that this method is the be all end all or better than the others, I was just sugesting another way of getting somewhere. Hell I have not even tested it yet so it may prove to have some fatal error to it, I will have to wait and see. There is a member here who is building a blank and his results thus far seem very positive.
Just an observation and not trying to offend by this coment but it is my impression that most people are very skeptical of new ideas and most prefer to try and perfect what has already been proven. Especialy if the idea is from an unknown.

So, in your first post when you said:

"Anyway it is just an idea and was looking for feed back."...

You were actually looking for...what?

Dale

 

[Canadian cue]

I wanted to know if the idea had been tried for one and to just possibly see a side to it I had not looked at. I appreciated the feedback but when it becomes all negative based and people are on the defensive it looses it's constructiveness. That being said I should have probably started a seperate thread for discussing the idea so as I would not ditract from the purpose of the original post. This is how I see it.

 

[Dave38]

I wanted to know if the idea had been tried for one and to just possibly see a side to it I had not looked at. I appreciated the feedback but when it becomes all negative based and people are on the defensive it looses it's constructiveness. That being said I should have probably started a seperate thread for discussing the idea so as I would not ditract from the purpose of the original post. This is how I see it.

Feedback involves both pros and cons. That is the reason to ask for feedback, so one can either adjust or modify something to achieve a better product. When one asks for feedback, one has to expect some opinions that don't mesh with your own. Opinions were asked for and were given, without any malice intended. Your design is different, and is of interest. I personally think will involve a lot more precise work to produce a product, that a real fullsplice already achieves without as many potential drawbacks as your method. To me that's not being negative, It's just feedback on an idea. It's just my take on the method. I have many years around wood and building things out of it, being the son of a cabinet/casket/home/ builder, I've seen alot and have done quite a bit myself. That doesn't make me an expert, but It will stop me from blindly agreeing with someone, just because it's a new idea. I do apologize if I offended anyone, as that wasn't my intent.
Dave

 

[camusmuse]

Go for it!!!

Being brand spanking new to cue building(but not woodworking)....I really like your idea....lots of potential. I would love to discuss it further....but like you indicated, you should start your own thread.....so do that, and I'll I post a few ideas that might even make some improvements on this design.

Nate

I wanted to know if the idea had been tried for one and to just possibly see a side to it I had not looked at. I appreciated the feedback but when it becomes all negative based and people are on the defensive it looses it's constructiveness. That being said I should have probably started a seperate thread for discussing the idea so as I would not ditract from the purpose of the original post. This is how I see it.

 

[Graciocues]

I've built the prototype.

It cuts on the bandsaw. You will have to cut your forearm V-grooves with your machinery to match the point length. If you cut your V-grooves can figure it out, simple. There are three setting to make different length points. I cut my test cue on the middle setting and got 11" points. I have no idea what the longer or shorter point lengths will be.
I also built a jig to cut the veneers so the jig can build sneaky or veneers full splice.

The cues will look as good as you build them. The little details make a big difference. The pictures don't show sharp points. The cue needs two more turns before the tips are exposed. I cut the bottom of the points the size of the band saw blade. I could shave the base to get sharp back veneers but that's to much work for a test cue.
I cut my V-grooves sharp at the end so the Bocote forearm comes to a perfect point between the veneers.
The veneer jig cuts the veneers so you can glue them together before installing in the cue. The results are far better doing it this way.

These jigs can be built out of wood or 80/20. The wood setup will be $300.00. The aluminum jigs will be $500.00. I'm only building a few.
Both jigs will cut the exactly same final product. The price for materials is the only difference.

Please don't PM me. My box fills up fast and I couldn't keep up with the PM. If your interested in a jig send me an Email.
Gcuescustoms@aol.com

I have nothing ready to sell. I can't show pictures of either jig yet. Sorry.

If lots of people are interested I'll sub out the build. If your interested in building these let me know.

The price is if I build them. If lots are interested I won't know the price until the machine shop gives me a quote. Could be more or less.

 

[HoskenCues]

Very excellent workmanship and I bet your jig works great for it's intended purpose.
I'll shoot you an email in a day or two.

Please post pics when it's in final size.

 

[tread2004]

Very interested in the jig

 

[Graciocues]

Enough are interested and I'm getting quotes to have them built.

I wouldn't mind a AZ member building it so if your interested let me know.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

I've built the prototype.

It cuts on the bandsaw. You will have to cut your forearm V-grooves with your machinery to match the point length. If you cut your V-grooves can figure it out, simple. There are three setting to make different length points. I cut my test cue on the middle setting and got 11" points. I have no idea what the longer or shorter point lengths will be.
Snip . . .

Scott, I have not seen your jig so don't know how simple or complex it is. With that said, I ask the following question with the utmost respect:
Is this really ready for mass production?

I've seen some of your cues, so I know that you do quality work. But you have no competition on this item right now, so there is no rush, and I'm wondering if more R&D is necessary to ensure that it's ready. With only one prototype cue not finished yet and some settings that haven't even been tried yet, I'm just wondering if it's time to send the blue prints to the machine shop. In these times $500 isn't chump change...

I could be all wet... wouldn't be the first time.
Mr H

 

[Graciocues]

Scott, I have not seen your jig so don't know how simple or complex it is. With that said, I ask the following question with the utmost respect:
Is this really ready for mass production?

I've seen some of your cues, so I know that you do quality work. But you have no competition on this item right now, so there is no rush, and I'm wondering if more R&D is necessary to ensure that it's ready. With only one prototype cue not finished yet and some settings that haven't even been tried yet, I'm just wondering if it's time to send the blue prints to the machine shop. In these times $500 isn't chump change...

I could be all wet... wouldn't be the first time.
Mr H

This is my 3rd jig. I built two designs in the past that I've used to build cues. This 3rd design is solid. The adjustments I need to make are in my V-groove forearms. I changed the way I cut my V-grooves so the base of the points end sharp with no flat spot.
Cutting the base of the points to a sharp point is not easy and is not necessary. The jig works and will adjust to fit whatever points the builder is capable of making.

The builders will need to learn this tool. Some might not have any success. Most will build a great cue their first time. The quality of the builder will show in the end product.

 

[Graciocues]

I should wait a couple weeks between turns but I couldn't wait to see the point. It's at .860" and the points are looking great. The Maple is 25 years old and the Bocote has been turned round for 2 years. I should be safe.

I need to adjust my jig so the veneers fit perfect. It's shown in the first picture. They are .025" from touching the maple. This can be adjusted in the veneer jig and once it's set to the thickness of your band saw blade your off and running. If you change blade thickness this setting will need adjusting.

The jig could be used on a table saw. The round blade on a table saw creates extra hand cutting.

 

[Graciocues]

The guys that know they are ordering a jig.

I'll show how I prepare the wood so you can start getting it ready.

18" lengths will work but the points will be a long way from the joint. I recommend 28" squares.

The better it starts the better it looks in the end.

You can cut points in something you have turned round already. You'll have to find a way to turn it exactly 90 degrees for the second cut. Not rocket science. LOL

I drill centers and turn it round leaving 1-2 inches square. I leave that on my shelf until I'm ready to start the cue. I true up the round and mill the square perfect at the same time when I start the cue.

The round end can be any size ( 0.5" - 2" ). The square end needs to be close in size to the round. My first 2 jigs had to use an exact 1.5" square or the points were off. It was important for the new jig to fit any size wood you stick in it.

The jig will cut the points in square wood or round. I like my wood close to size before I start.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

This is my 3rd jig. I built two designs in the past that I've used to build cues. This 3rd design is solid. The adjustments I need to make are in my V-groove forearms. I changed the way I cut my V-grooves so the base of the points end sharp with no flat spot.
Cutting the base of the points to a sharp point is not easy and is not necessary. The jig works and will adjust to fit whatever points the builder is capable of making.

The builders will need to learn this tool. Some might not have any success. Most will build a great cue their first time. The quality of the builder will show in the end product.

Thanks for the clarification.
Mr H

 

[GBCues]

I'm making a full splice jig to sell and will post pictures in a couple weeks. I have no clue on price yet.

The full splice jig posted a few months ago was my first attemt at building one. This new jig is built with aluminum 80/20.

So I see that you are fine tuning your new full-splice jig
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=190298

Can we see it yet?

Thanks!

Gary

 

[Graciocues]

So I see that you are fine tuning your new full-splice jig
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=190298

Can we see it yet?

Thanks!

Gary

No pictures yet. An AZ member is building it and we'll show pictures after the first orders are filled. I don't want my ideas copied before I get the first batch out.

The jig cuts great. The builders will have adjust the jig to fit the length of points they want and the thickness of the veneers they use. Once it's set it never needs changing.