Greg S. suggested it to me some time ago. We tried this just this year to see how it would go. It actually takes longer than regular push-out. No one liked it either.
Full Time Push Out...
- Thread starter 1971
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Greg S. suggested it to me some time ago. We tried this just this year to see how it would go. It actually takes longer than regular push-out. No one liked it either.
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I haven't played it for many years but it was the only way I played for like the first 25 years of playing 9 ball. It was the only way we all played. You are right, a player may hook themselves more often playing 2 foul but so what, they can just push out.
You know, just because you think or say something does not make it true no matter how condescending you try to be to others. I don't advocate 1 foul BIH either, I hate playing that way. I am just saying that 2 foul is not that much better really. There are also different ways of playing 2 foul.
"2 Way Shots," which are essential to showcase the deepest level of the game.
Yes, that rule is too lopsided on the offensive side, not allowing the movement to take place. There is a variation of this rule that I really like, it allows "2 Way Shots," which are essential to showcase the deepest level of the game.
Yes, that rule is too lopsided on the offensive side, not allowing the movement to take place. There is a variation of this rule that I really like, it allows "2 Way Shots," which are essential to showcase the deepest level of the game.
It was merely a casual suggestion to a post and I'm in agreement with preserving and improving the game with best interests to both the players and spectators. I just think the current one-foul-ball-in-hand rules could use some modifications. I feel Full Time Push Out might be a step in the right direction since everybody is already familiar with that rule immediately after the break anyhow. :wink:
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I could be wrong but you appear to thinking that a player would play all shots as if it were 1 foul rules and only then push out if it goes wrong. Surely 2 foul rules would change the way a player thinks about and plays every shot?
9 ball was pretty much invisible outside of North America before Texas Express rules came to the fore and it became a filler on TV. Snooker players prefer 9 ball to 8 ball and would love the old rules even more. Somebody get Barry Hearn on the line! J.W?
I haven't played it for many years but it was the only way I played for like the first 25 years of playing 9 ball. It was the only way we all played. You are right, a player may hook themselves more often playing 2 foul but so what, they can just push out.
You know, just because you think or say something does not make it true no matter how condescending you try to be to others. I don't advocate 1 foul BIH either, I hate playing that way. I am just saying that 2 foul is not that much better really. There are also different ways of playing 2 foul.[/QUOTE]
So what are your thoughts on each player being allowed ONE push out per rack???? When you play two shot shoot out it takes away the luck, and the better player will win almost every time. Roll out tho also allowed one to move whitey aggressively into clusters to continue your run and taught one too learn the ''free shot'' thinking on difficult cut shots, always overcutting to not sell out.. Learning this aspect of play is extremely important and helps all games. Two shot shoot out is a similar game to One pocket, and one soon realizes it becomes impossible to beat someone unless you get lucky.
You know, just because you think or say something does not make it true no matter how condescending you try to be to others. I don't advocate 1 foul BIH either, I hate playing that way. I am just saying that 2 foul is not that much better really. There are also different ways of playing 2 foul.[/QUOTE]
So what are your thoughts on each player being allowed ONE push out per rack???? When you play two shot shoot out it takes away the luck, and the better player will win almost every time. Roll out tho also allowed one to move whitey aggressively into clusters to continue your run and taught one too learn the ''free shot'' thinking on difficult cut shots, always overcutting to not sell out.. Learning this aspect of play is extremely important and helps all games. Two shot shoot out is a similar game to One pocket, and one soon realizes it becomes impossible to beat someone unless you get lucky.
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No not really. Like I said in another post, 2 foul was the only way I played for like 25 years. I loved 2 foul, (I don't think it is spectators game though) and against a lesser player say when you are giving weight it was a huge advantage.
Heck, forget about being hid, I may push if I just don't like the angle I got. You could torture a weaker player with 2 foul. I always liked playing "Any two". Some guys liked playing "Two by the same player".
Here is the thing, pool has no governing body. There is nothing that prevents say Barry from introducing any rules he wants and see how they prove out. You will know pretty quick what works and what doesn't.
That is the same for anybody putting any tournament including C.J. There is no need to even debate any of this, just do it and you will know pretty quick what the players like and what works. Sometimes things on paper are different once you test them.
The last real job I had was in 1971 running a crane. I have been in business for most of my life. One thing I have learned is, your decisions are not always completely right no matter how sure you are. But that does not matter as long as you recognize it and make the approbate adjustments.
All people like C.J. has to do is, do it and see if what he believes is correct, he will know quick enough what works and what doesn't. Talking is easy, on a forum like this over the years you hear a lot of stuff over and over.
But other then maybe Grady, who would experiment, nothing really changes.
I guess you could say they keep doing the same thing hoping for a different result.
The thing is, everybody has the same goals and wishes for the sport/game. We would love to see it more accepted by the general public. We would love to see money in it. We would love to see real pool rooms in every city like it was years ago when I started playing pool. How it gets there, if it ever does, we can only discuss, it take people to actually do it. Open those new pool rooms, start those tournaments and fund them somehow, draw in a new generation of players and grow the sport. I hope we are not just dreaming.
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Pool does have a governing body. There is just no reason or incentive to have an event sanctioned. Sanctioning is supposed to mean that certain rules and standards will be adhered to. You are exactly right. There is nothing stopping anybody from experimenting and running with any rules that one can devise. At this time, I think that is a good thing. I, for one, do stuff. When one of my trials works, I let everyone know. CJ & the rest of you brain stormers........get to work!!!!
It's like the Pledge of Allegiance, it starts with "I" and ends with "All"
That's correct and how business should operate in the United States.
I'm still not sure why anyone would not encourage advancement, it ultimately benefits everyone. It's like the Pledge of Allegiance, it starts with "I" and ends with "All".
That's correct and how business should operate in the United States.
I'm still not sure why anyone would not encourage advancement, it ultimately benefits everyone. It's like the Pledge of Allegiance, it starts with "I" and ends with "All".
TE did speed up play....for a while. Games evolve. Players started out kick-slamming the balls. Over time, the players developed the kick-safe. TE began to slow.
Fast forward to todays game.....ball in hand is so huge that the incentive to play safe took over the game. This really slowed things down.
One-Foul-Ball-In-Hand warps the game. The incentive to play safe is too big and the punishment for not making the hit is too severe. For the sake of improving competition and making the game more exciting to play and watch, we should try to do better.
History tells us that standard Two-Shot-Push-Out won't be the answer.
Fast forward to todays game.....ball in hand is so huge that the incentive to play safe took over the game. This really slowed things down.
One-Foul-Ball-In-Hand warps the game. The incentive to play safe is too big and the punishment for not making the hit is too severe. For the sake of improving competition and making the game more exciting to play and watch, we should try to do better.
History tells us that standard Two-Shot-Push-Out won't be the answer.
Creative safety play? You mean when somebody gets out of line when they shouldn't of and plays safe turning them from a chump to a champion.
Besides creative safety play is best in roll out. Playing safe in roll out leaving the lowest number ball near a pocket so you can't push out without leaving a shot is much more creative than ducking. Also pushing out to a tough shot is much more interesting than ducking behind a ball.
If you want to watch creative safety play watch one pocket.
Playing roll out is a much harder game to beat a good player. I have beat several very good players playing one foul and I have no chance to beat them in roll out.
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Old Nine Baller
Banned
Playing two-foul was not "a huge advantage" against a weaker player. This is 100% wrong.
I played many who gave me weight and I played many who I gave weight to and in all cases, as long as it was a fair spot, the two-foul was not an advantage for either player.
Just as the better player can push out to tougher shots the weaker player can push out to take advantage of his moneyball's position on the table.
Just because one player is "weaker" and needs weight doesn't mean he is an idiot who doesn't know where to push out or how to play a safety if needed in response to a push out.
ONB
Like you said, one foul turns a "chumpion" into a champion
You understand this game really well, I'm impressed...only a few these days do.
That's what happens playing "one foul" is a guy will run down and get bad position on the 8 or 9, then simply hook you or leave an "end rail to end rail shot".
Like you said, one foul turns a "chumpion" into a champion, so funny because it's true.
You understand this game really well, I'm impressed...only a few these days do.
That's what happens playing "one foul" is a guy will run down and get bad position on the 8 or 9, then simply hook you or leave an "end rail to end rail shot".
Like you said, one foul turns a "chumpion" into a champion, so funny because it's true.
Here is what Texas Express is at the pro level. Perfect pool and then a safe to get ball in hand. Nothing is more boring that perfect anything, nothing is more boring that a safety battle. These players have great skills and can do so much more than Texas Express allows but we never see it because when faced with a tough shot the percentage move is to play safe. I been playing pool for 40 years and I love pool but I will not play 9 ball or even watch it because it is boring now if this game can not make me a fan something is wrong with the game. Texas Express is like when they played basketball and had a jump ball after every shot or if you made the forward pass illegal in football. It may be too late but the only chance 9 ball has is to bring back the shot making force these players to shoot the tough shots under pressure.
I was actually talking more in the extreme. "Lamb Killing". In your case you are a good player and if a better player gives you a small amount of weight to make it a little more even it may not matter.
In fact you could very well be a smarter player then the guy giving you the weight and out play him in push out anyway regardless, but maybe you are older or don't play as much and you need some weight.
True weaker players no matter how much weight you give them don't become any smarter due to the weight. They make all the same mistakes and miss all the same shot with or without the weight. The addition of an extra element like push out just make it that much easier to beat them.
One pocket is a good example. You may beat a guy who can out shoot you at a game he doesn't really know how to play, especially if it is your specialty.
I know what you are saying though.
The incentive to get BIH at the higher levels of the game has changed TE into a safety battle in some racks and a defensive game if any balls are tied up or hard to get into position to pocket.
Honest attempt doesn't work because we're not all honest. When a player kicks at a ball honestly and misses, what happens when the next player gets hooked? They can try to hit the object ball, but might also miss hitting it. This could go on and on, especially if a ball is tied up and neither player wants to actually open up the balls.
In essence, this is what two shot foul is about...not wanting to disturb balls and sell out to your opponent. It is the next step up from honest attempt. A missed kick should be treated like an honest attempt at it and the next player given the option to give the shot back. Or in reality, the same as a push out.
Two players not really honestly attempting to hit a ball and sell out could be limited one attempt and then the next player coming up has to hit it or be awarded BIH. Two shot foul eliminates the cheating in honest attempt and limits the safety play due to less BIH opportunities.
It's pretty simple. You shoot the shot or give it back. You don't have to be Efren to stop a player from getting BIH on a lucky leave by kicking through traffic anymore. You also have a way to position the cue ball to get that angle for the run out or break out by pushing to that spot on the table you need. Your opponent can let you take a whack at it or go ahead and try it their self. Either way, unless a safe is played, the choice and incentive to cash is there, which is what the game badly needs.
Best,
Mike
Honest attempt doesn't work because we're not all honest. When a player kicks at a ball honestly and misses, what happens when the next player gets hooked? They can try to hit the object ball, but might also miss hitting it. This could go on and on, especially if a ball is tied up and neither player wants to actually open up the balls.
In essence, this is what two shot foul is about...not wanting to disturb balls and sell out to your opponent. It is the next step up from honest attempt. A missed kick should be treated like an honest attempt at it and the next player given the option to give the shot back. Or in reality, the same as a push out.
Two players not really honestly attempting to hit a ball and sell out could be limited one attempt and then the next player coming up has to hit it or be awarded BIH. Two shot foul eliminates the cheating in honest attempt and limits the safety play due to less BIH opportunities.
It's pretty simple. You shoot the shot or give it back. You don't have to be Efren to stop a player from getting BIH on a lucky leave by kicking through traffic anymore. You also have a way to position the cue ball to get that angle for the run out or break out by pushing to that spot on the table you need. Your opponent can let you take a whack at it or go ahead and try it their self. Either way, unless a safe is played, the choice and incentive to cash is there, which is what the game badly needs.
Best,
Mike