This is what I was thinking. Doesn't it eliminate basically every player who is entered in the 10 Ball event - unless they are knocked out early enough to still try to qualify for the 14.1 competition rounds?
Fury 14.1 Tournament Phase Updates
- Thread starter ForumGhost516
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This is what I was thinking. Doesn't it eliminate basically every player who is entered in the 10 Ball event - unless they are knocked out early enough to still try to qualify for the 14.1 competition rounds?
I believe it might which is an issue for us as we don't want to exclude anyone but Im really not seeing an alternative at this point. We are still looking into possibilities for next year's event as nothing is set in stone right now.
The top 8 qualifiers play down for the title, right? What days are these matches played? Are they all on Sunday, or Saturday and Sunday? Perhaps you could go ahead and let everyone qualify BUT - if they qualify for the elimination rounds AND are still in the 10 Ball event when the elimination matches start they are out of the event and refunded their qualifying money. I mean, you wouldn't get their money anyway ff they are excluded just from being entered in the 10 Ball event and this way you would have more of the top players enter and therefore have a better field for the elimination matches. How ever many of the top 8 that can't play because of the conflict are replaced by the next highest qualifiers available.
Just a thought.
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I just think that would cause more problems than its worth in all honesty. Player A comes in to the event we take his money explain the rules and say good luck, he shoots and makes it to sunday only to realize he is still in the 10 ball and then we say here is your money back but he knows he has a chance to make decent money in our event. Granted not as good as the 10 ball obviously but 1500 for first place isn't chump change. I just think that player would be a little pissed off, I know I would be.
I understand what you are saying but how pissed off can he be when he knows up front he may have a conflict and the refund deal saves him from forfeiting a match (in single elimination) and his entry fee. I mean if he chose to play in the 14.1 event on Sunday rather than the 10 Ball, you think he'd get his 10 Ball entry fee back for that?
Charlie, I'm just throwing stuff out there. You and the guys work real hard on this and certainly you all know more what is plausible. I'm just trying out ideas, but certainly defer to your judgement. I really want to see this succeed and get bigger every year.
Listen im open to it, I think you have an idea maybe if we explain it to the player before hand and say listen you can play now for the 25 dollars but if you have a conflict of interest on the day of (Sunday) you get your money back and we just go down the list to the next player. Something like that?
That way also the player gets the chance to opt out of playing period or playing up to them so long as they know before hand what the deal is on our end.
Because that might very well work out.
To be fair to the 14.1 event though, obviously the player has to qualify for the single elimination portion, because if he doesn't then there is no conflict and therefore no reason to refund his qualifying money. I'd also stipulate that the conflict needs to be due to one of the "sanctioned" events at the venue, like the 10 Ball event, but not another side event like the 14.1 challenge or some commitment somewhere else.
But look, there's nothing wrong with saying "we know we are secondary to Mr. Hopkins main event so we are acting accordingly in order to accommodate the players as best we can."
Now, if we can just see that it gets streamed!! LOL.
The 10 ball event plays down to the final 4 players on Friday night. This year they were SVB, Stevie Moore, Raj Hundal and Daren Appleton. By that time, everyone should know if there are any conflicts that have to be resolved with the 10 ball players. How many of these top 4 were actually involved in the top 8 in the staight pool challenge? We may only be talking about one or two conflicts, at most. I think some solution can be figured out for a couple of players. What are the chances of all 4 in the 10 ball being involved in the 14.1 top 8? I would say very slim.
Remember, the two players who caused the problem this year did not have a conflict with the 10 ball event. Their conflicts were with other events, one of which wasn't at the expo at all. These are conflict that Charlie and Steve can't be expected to deal with.
Mika's conflict was with the Million Dollar Shootout. I remember seeing that booth, as they were setting it up on Thursday when I was there, but I have no idea what that was or who was involved.
Charlie W's conflict was with an event that wasn't at the expo and he wasn't even playing in it. As the promoter, it was his own fault that the event was scheduled in conflict with the last day of the expo and in conflict with the 14.1 final.
IMHO, these two guys knew there was a split at Derby City and they just figured they could do the same. There really isn't any way you can accomodate players that just decide they don't want to play. You just have to stop them from getting the cash if they don't play.
Remember, the two players who caused the problem this year did not have a conflict with the 10 ball event. Their conflicts were with other events, one of which wasn't at the expo at all. These are conflict that Charlie and Steve can't be expected to deal with.
Mika's conflict was with the Million Dollar Shootout. I remember seeing that booth, as they were setting it up on Thursday when I was there, but I have no idea what that was or who was involved.
Charlie W's conflict was with an event that wasn't at the expo and he wasn't even playing in it. As the promoter, it was his own fault that the event was scheduled in conflict with the last day of the expo and in conflict with the 14.1 final.
IMHO, these two guys knew there was a split at Derby City and they just figured they could do the same. There really isn't any way you can accomodate players that just decide they don't want to play. You just have to stop them from getting the cash if they don't play.
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Timing
I was reading a couple of threads and in this situation... Formula 1 racing comes to mind. Rather than strictly playing the disciple (to 150 for example)... hold each match, to 150 or x hours length. At the expiration of either, you would declare a winner. Yes, you would need a shot clock, but is that such a bad thing. Then you would not have matches going long and impinging on other matches/disciplines.
As a promoter, I'd think you'd want all of your finals to be played. Allen could specify with all the event organizers, here is your timeslot for your finals matches. No finals would be conflicting. In terms of an event like the Million dollar freeze out, was it an official SBE event?? If so, its finals would have a slot. If not, then it needed to avoid the other finals slots.
I don't like, but can't really complain about chopping the pot. The winner makes a choice to give his opponent money that THEY are paying taxes on. The promoter should always issue the money and the corresponding 1099 to the winner. You want to give some cheddar, you can always gift a friend <GRIN>. I'd bet the chopped practice would end pretty quick.
Finally, You don't play, you don't get paid... that is a pretty simple solution to the not playing item. You have a conflict with a non-show event (remember there are no show conflicts in the finals) tough luck, you've donated your entry fee and get no payout. Yes, you would go down the list to find two opponents to play in the finals, the fans deserve a show for their money.
Thanks for reading.
I was reading a couple of threads and in this situation... Formula 1 racing comes to mind. Rather than strictly playing the disciple (to 150 for example)... hold each match, to 150 or x hours length. At the expiration of either, you would declare a winner. Yes, you would need a shot clock, but is that such a bad thing. Then you would not have matches going long and impinging on other matches/disciplines.
As a promoter, I'd think you'd want all of your finals to be played. Allen could specify with all the event organizers, here is your timeslot for your finals matches. No finals would be conflicting. In terms of an event like the Million dollar freeze out, was it an official SBE event?? If so, its finals would have a slot. If not, then it needed to avoid the other finals slots.
I don't like, but can't really complain about chopping the pot. The winner makes a choice to give his opponent money that THEY are paying taxes on. The promoter should always issue the money and the corresponding 1099 to the winner. You want to give some cheddar, you can always gift a friend <GRIN>. I'd bet the chopped practice would end pretty quick.
Finally, You don't play, you don't get paid... that is a pretty simple solution to the not playing item. You have a conflict with a non-show event (remember there are no show conflicts in the finals) tough luck, you've donated your entry fee and get no payout. Yes, you would go down the list to find two opponents to play in the finals, the fans deserve a show for their money.
Thanks for reading.
The whole structure of these multiple event tournaments is fundamentally flawed. You can't have people playing in multiple events without expecting scheduling conflicts.
If I were a corporate sponsor or a private donator, I certainly wouldn't be contributing to these types of multiple event tournaments wherein players pick and choose which event is more advantageous to play in or drop.
Charlie,
Adding to your idea of a $25 refund option for the finalist. To make it fair for both semi-finalists (eliminated as 3rd and 4th), 3rd and 4th can play for second shot at the finals if only one finalist opts out.
If both finalist opted out, then 3rd and 4th just move up to the finalist spot.
Adding to your idea of a $25 refund option for the finalist. To make it fair for both semi-finalists (eliminated as 3rd and 4th), 3rd and 4th can play for second shot at the finals if only one finalist opts out.
If both finalist opted out, then 3rd and 4th just move up to the finalist spot.
I have no idea how this works in the real world, so my apologies if I sound naive...
I think the ability to "split" is too easy. Do these players get paid in cash at tourneys end? Pay them by check, and make them work at it. And make them work at collecting, were one of their "partners" in this business transaction decides to not follow through on the deal. Since they are already doing something unscrupulous, it's not out of the question.
(I know, this won't work in many instances, due to poor payment history by certain promoters.)
I would think that at least paying the grand prize by some delayed method at higher level (and exposure) tournaments might make some of these guys pause a bit.
Then again, perhaps I'm really that naive.
I think the ability to "split" is too easy. Do these players get paid in cash at tourneys end? Pay them by check, and make them work at it. And make them work at collecting, were one of their "partners" in this business transaction decides to not follow through on the deal. Since they are already doing something unscrupulous, it's not out of the question.
(I know, this won't work in many instances, due to poor payment history by certain promoters.)
I would think that at least paying the grand prize by some delayed method at higher level (and exposure) tournaments might make some of these guys pause a bit.
Then again, perhaps I'm really that naive.
Thank you all for your concerns.
It really saddened us all the way the event finished off. But as a whole the event was a huge success. Numbers were certainly up this year, and i believe we always had a waiting list for players who were eager to get on the leader board. I know this for a fact because i didn't even get a chance to take my innings
I personally want to thank everyone that supported the event both financially and logistically, without you all this event would not be possible.
We are very eager to start preparing for next year, and we already have the gears in motion as to ways that we can improve on the great event in a positive direction. and we will most certainly will keep you all in the loop on all new developments !
Thank you all for your ideas, its great knowing that everyone wants to get involved somehow !
-Steve
It really saddened us all the way the event finished off. But as a whole the event was a huge success. Numbers were certainly up this year, and i believe we always had a waiting list for players who were eager to get on the leader board. I know this for a fact because i didn't even get a chance to take my innings
I personally want to thank everyone that supported the event both financially and logistically, without you all this event would not be possible.
We are very eager to start preparing for next year, and we already have the gears in motion as to ways that we can improve on the great event in a positive direction. and we will most certainly will keep you all in the loop on all new developments !
Thank you all for your ideas, its great knowing that everyone wants to get involved somehow !
-Steve
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Gene every year and in everything we do you are always there supporting and i couldn't be happier to have you on board.
Thanks buddy.
Thanks buddy.
Abp
Lets see if the ABP looks into this investigation of chopping the pot by 2 of their members and one or both being on the Board of Directors. They want to be so much and protect their players...How about protecting the hand that feeds them. I would like to see the ABP fine both players for the amount of money that they collected from the 14.1 Tournament, and have the money donated to something 14.1 related, or better yet, make them forfit the money and return it and let the 3rd and 4th place finishers play for the 1st and 2nd place money and split the original 3rd and 4th place money down the line to lower finishing players. What would CW do if 2 low ranking members ( NOT IN THE CLICK AS WE SAY ) were playing for 1st and 2nd in his big event and at the last minute they said they weren't going to play and just split the money because they had more important things to do. I think what Charlie Williams and Mika have done is so disrespectful to everyone that was involved in making the 14.1 event happen and to all of the other players,that would have been thrilled to play for 1st and 2nd. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A RESPONSE BY THE ABP ABOUT THIS SITUATION...BUT I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.....THEY BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED NEXT YEAR FROM PARTICIPATING IN THIS EVENT, AND PAY A FINE BEFORE BEING ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE FUTURE.....ABP...WAITING FOR A RESPONSE..................????????
Lets see if the ABP looks into this investigation of chopping the pot by 2 of their members and one or both being on the Board of Directors. They want to be so much and protect their players...How about protecting the hand that feeds them. I would like to see the ABP fine both players for the amount of money that they collected from the 14.1 Tournament, and have the money donated to something 14.1 related, or better yet, make them forfit the money and return it and let the 3rd and 4th place finishers play for the 1st and 2nd place money and split the original 3rd and 4th place money down the line to lower finishing players. What would CW do if 2 low ranking members ( NOT IN THE CLICK AS WE SAY ) were playing for 1st and 2nd in his big event and at the last minute they said they weren't going to play and just split the money because they had more important things to do. I think what Charlie Williams and Mika have done is so disrespectful to everyone that was involved in making the 14.1 event happen and to all of the other players,that would have been thrilled to play for 1st and 2nd. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A RESPONSE BY THE ABP ABOUT THIS SITUATION...BUT I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.....THEY BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED NEXT YEAR FROM PARTICIPATING IN THIS EVENT, AND PAY A FINE BEFORE BEING ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE FUTURE.....ABP...WAITING FOR A RESPONSE..................????????
I posted something similar in a thread in the main forum. I'll help next year if I can.
Kudos to Steve and Charlie
Thanks to Steve, Charlie and all their helpers for doing their bit to keep 14.1 alive and kicking. By all accounts, you again had tremendous participation in the event. Sounds like you guys hardly slept.
I am sorry for you guys that they were not able to do the finals, but as some have said, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. You had a great event, probably introduced many to straight pool, got some great practitioners of this ancient art to strut their stuff on the big tables, and helped the players pick up a few bucks while at it.
You had John Schmidt, probably the best straight pool player in the United States, Charlie "Pattern" Williams, who gets the job done, with patterns only a mother could love. You had Mika Immonen, who I think combines the power of the newer style of 14.1, with the finesse of the old school. Heck, you even got Shane Van Boening to step up to the plate and by all accounts, he acquitted himself well. Add to that old schoolers like Dave Daya and Danny Barouty, and I think you guys covered all the bases.
These 14.1 events are treated somewhat like stepchildren by the promoters of the main events. If there is time and/or room for them, ok, but if not, that is ok, too. It is hard to organize finals when your players may be tied up with other events. Add to that the fact that the whole venue is being taken down during the last day, it makes it hard to finish up the way we would like. I regret that my allowing the split at Derby between Ralf and Alex might have acted as a precedent in putting the split in everyone's mind and I vow not to be so lazy next year.
All in all, Great Job, Guys. You should be proud of all that you have done. :thumbup:
Thanks to Steve, Charlie and all their helpers for doing their bit to keep 14.1 alive and kicking. By all accounts, you again had tremendous participation in the event. Sounds like you guys hardly slept.
I am sorry for you guys that they were not able to do the finals, but as some have said, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. You had a great event, probably introduced many to straight pool, got some great practitioners of this ancient art to strut their stuff on the big tables, and helped the players pick up a few bucks while at it.
You had John Schmidt, probably the best straight pool player in the United States, Charlie "Pattern" Williams, who gets the job done, with patterns only a mother could love. You had Mika Immonen, who I think combines the power of the newer style of 14.1, with the finesse of the old school. Heck, you even got Shane Van Boening to step up to the plate and by all accounts, he acquitted himself well. Add to that old schoolers like Dave Daya and Danny Barouty, and I think you guys covered all the bases.
These 14.1 events are treated somewhat like stepchildren by the promoters of the main events. If there is time and/or room for them, ok, but if not, that is ok, too. It is hard to organize finals when your players may be tied up with other events. Add to that the fact that the whole venue is being taken down during the last day, it makes it hard to finish up the way we would like. I regret that my allowing the split at Derby between Ralf and Alex might have acted as a precedent in putting the split in everyone's mind and I vow not to be so lazy next year.
All in all, Great Job, Guys. You should be proud of all that you have done. :thumbup:
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Ditto McAnaspie to all of Brother Walsh's comments, except when he beat on himself. All of us who are working to keep the 14.1 flame going need to support each other, learn from the problems we've encountered, and do better the next time.
Those folks who criticize every effort to support the Championship, in the Derby City and SBE Challenges, and the World 14.1, need to take stock: All of the individuals involved in these efforts are sacrificing money and time to nourish the game you love-why snipe from behind every rock?
Those folks who criticize every effort to support the Championship, in the Derby City and SBE Challenges, and the World 14.1, need to take stock: All of the individuals involved in these efforts are sacrificing money and time to nourish the game you love-why snipe from behind every rock?
Gene, I know you have been an avid supporter of the 14.1 endeavors and should be commended for your effort to support something you obviously care a great deal about.
With that being said, sometimes it is not "sniping" per say, but rather criticism that can be taken in, processed, and used to improve on a particular event. Some people snipe, sure, but many others are expressing their frustration because they WANT the events to continue, but can not suffer them continuing without improvement.
When an event is fully supported by private donations and volunteer efforts, then it is up to those who donate and volunteer to decide if it is worth their effort and their money. If an event falls short of expectations, those involved then decided whether to continue providing either their financial support and/or time and energy. They might adjust their expectations and continue to support the event. They might make it known that their expectations were not met and allow time for event improvements before deciding, or the simply might decided not to support that event any longer.
What we do know for sure, is that if an event consistently fails to deliver on the expectations of those that support it, it will either wither away due to a lack of support, or it will continue on, and people will continue to complain. The point being that the incentive to improve is financial. If funds aren't raised, the event doesn't go off. If the event continues to raise money despite poor performance, then its really up to those that contribute to decide if they are getting any value from it, and I believe that at some point, they will decide they are not.
Now, when you get sponsors involved, it changes the game slightly, because they are looking for a financial return on their investment. If they can not attract more visibility that then translates to sales, then their sponsorship will end. How that might affect the efforts of promoters and events varies.
You'll often see events that change sponsorship regularly because companies will give it a try only to discover that their investment doesn't pay dividends. It is therefore in the best interest of those vested in making sure the events take place, to try their best to satisfy sponsors expectations.
In this industry, there is a sense of entitlement amongst promoters and players like I have seen in no other industry I have worked in. I'm not lumping Charlie and Steve (the Fury 14.1 Challenge promoters) into this category as they do what they do for the love of the game, but in the opinion of this sponsor, it's imperative for all parties involved, including the players who actually took home cash, to understand that if they continue to fail to deliver on the expectations of sponsors, volunteers, contributors, and fans, that their opportunity to win money (for the players) and to put on a successful event (for the promoters) might simply go away.
If an open and honest dialogue about these expectations, and criticism, from fans and supporters doesn't take place, then those that are promoting in the event could be totally unaware of any problems as seen through the eyes of those that are supporting them financially.
As a company, I would much prefer getting honest feedback about our products and services so that we can make the necessary adjustments to improve. If we can't make those adjustments, no one buys our products and we fail. I would expect any event promoter with integrity to have those same expectations to grow and improve on their endeavors. I would expect players to understand that without the support of sponsors and fans, they get no payday, and "no payday" unfortunately about sums up the status of pro pool in America today.
With that being said, sometimes it is not "sniping" per say, but rather criticism that can be taken in, processed, and used to improve on a particular event. Some people snipe, sure, but many others are expressing their frustration because they WANT the events to continue, but can not suffer them continuing without improvement.
When an event is fully supported by private donations and volunteer efforts, then it is up to those who donate and volunteer to decide if it is worth their effort and their money. If an event falls short of expectations, those involved then decided whether to continue providing either their financial support and/or time and energy. They might adjust their expectations and continue to support the event. They might make it known that their expectations were not met and allow time for event improvements before deciding, or the simply might decided not to support that event any longer.
What we do know for sure, is that if an event consistently fails to deliver on the expectations of those that support it, it will either wither away due to a lack of support, or it will continue on, and people will continue to complain. The point being that the incentive to improve is financial. If funds aren't raised, the event doesn't go off. If the event continues to raise money despite poor performance, then its really up to those that contribute to decide if they are getting any value from it, and I believe that at some point, they will decide they are not.
Now, when you get sponsors involved, it changes the game slightly, because they are looking for a financial return on their investment. If they can not attract more visibility that then translates to sales, then their sponsorship will end. How that might affect the efforts of promoters and events varies.
You'll often see events that change sponsorship regularly because companies will give it a try only to discover that their investment doesn't pay dividends. It is therefore in the best interest of those vested in making sure the events take place, to try their best to satisfy sponsors expectations.
In this industry, there is a sense of entitlement amongst promoters and players like I have seen in no other industry I have worked in. I'm not lumping Charlie and Steve (the Fury 14.1 Challenge promoters) into this category as they do what they do for the love of the game, but in the opinion of this sponsor, it's imperative for all parties involved, including the players who actually took home cash, to understand that if they continue to fail to deliver on the expectations of sponsors, volunteers, contributors, and fans, that their opportunity to win money (for the players) and to put on a successful event (for the promoters) might simply go away.
If an open and honest dialogue about these expectations, and criticism, from fans and supporters doesn't take place, then those that are promoting in the event could be totally unaware of any problems as seen through the eyes of those that are supporting them financially.
As a company, I would much prefer getting honest feedback about our products and services so that we can make the necessary adjustments to improve. If we can't make those adjustments, no one buys our products and we fail. I would expect any event promoter with integrity to have those same expectations to grow and improve on their endeavors. I would expect players to understand that without the support of sponsors and fans, they get no payday, and "no payday" unfortunately about sums up the status of pro pool in America today.
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