"GAMBLING" • competing

[BasementDweller]

...
To wrap up some of the loose ends, here are answers to Joey's other questions:

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?
No. I think that someone that is all talk is a nit. I don't care to hear who you could beat if you gambled.
Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?
Only if they cheat.
Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?
Nope.
Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?
Depends on how you define "hustler". If it means cheating to win, most are not. If it means trying to get an edge by matching up well, any serious gambler should be. Again, I prefer "wager", and any serious wager is formed based on a mutual disagreement.
Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?
I would prefer that it is, but each room should be allowed to decide. Has anyone here been to a room where it's really not allowed?
Is gambling good for pool?
I think that action is good for pool, but labeling it as gambling is not. Seriously, we're not throwing dice or playing roulette, so why put it in the same category?
What do you get out of competing?
In the case of leagues, I get the enjoyment of playing on a team. In the case of a tournament, I have incentive to play my best without the tension of betting on an individual match-up.
What do you get out of gambling?
Since I just play cheap with friends most of the time, it's just enough to keep us all interested and be able to declare someone a winner for the night.

Matt,

Since I didn't answer Joey's questions I'll just agree with yours. I really like your use of the term "wager". That does seem to make more since.

What sounds better: "Care for a friendly wager?" or "Hey, would you like to gamble on this?"

Gambling does seem to have negative connotations associated with it, while wagering seems much more innocuous (is that the word?).

 

[ShootingArts]

lost my detailed reply

Joey,

I spent a good bit of time putting together a detailed point by point reply that just disappeared to a computer hick-up. This time I'm just going with the freeform version!

First lets touch on the people this thread isn't about, those that just love to hit balls. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, it is what first drew most of us to the game. Too, without the love of hitting the balls I would have never been a successful competitor or gambler. In the years I played seriously I happily spent twenty-thirty hours a week or more hitting balls alone.

Competitors can be pretty narrowly defined. A few play just for the joy of getting out and the social activity much like league players but most competitors regardless of the competition format are much the same. They are there to openly compete and win. Nothing wrong with competition and competitors. I'll ignore the few cheats that dirty competitions.

Now we step out into the murky depths. There are many different types of "gamblers", so many the word deserves quotes.

Nothing wrong with social gamblers, I used to play in a fierce weekly poker game where we played for table stakes and the rule was the only stake we could bring to the table was the silver we received as change from purchases that week.

Nothing ethically wrong with the people that gamble because they believe it brings out the best in themselves or their opponent either.

Then we have the people that gamble to make money. Even here there are two different types:

The warrior who tells it to the world that he is here to gamble and tote off all the money he can. Hard to find much fault with someone that comes at you head on.

Then there is the most common small time full time gambler. He is always chasing an edge. Legal or illegal, ethical or not quite ethical, the goal is to get the cheese without letting many other considerations interfere with that. He delights in the slam dunk prop bet and doesn't hesitate to play both ends against the middle if he gets a chance. All of his friends are dead and folded up in his pocket. These are interesting charactors to watch but kinda like you can only tell a politician is lying when his lips are moving, you can only tell these guys are trying to get over on you when they talk to you.

A favorite of mine cheated his brother several times and constantly tried to cheat me on a business deal, in a craps game, or on a card table. He would cheat even when he didn't need to, just the way he rolled. He had learned the hard way that I couldn't get drunk enough that he could beat me on a pool table but he was forever watching for another way to take me. I always had money, his was a never ending quest to get it from me!

Some gamblers don't perfectly fit these groups but if you think about it they usually fit one or another pretty closely.

The only gamblers that do harm to the game are the active hustlers who seek out victims and the small time gamblers who have crossed over the ethical line long ago. Perhaps those of us that invited people to try to hustle us are bad for the game too, I don't know. Seems most people would realize that they got themselves into a mess of their own choosing but ???

Once gambling at pool became a cash cow for me I thought of it as a business. It only made good business sense to do as little work as possible for the maximum return. I worked strictly inside my ethics 99% of the time but since I formed them myself that wasn't too hard!

Hu

 

[pwd72s]

Joey,

You must not be aware, that there is a bill before the house, on that very subject..The bill, if passed into law, would make it..
"Illegal NOT to have a wager, when playing Pool OR Golf"...I have been busting my tail getting signatures in support of the bill. I think its a very worthwhile cause, don't you ?..:thumbup:

El Duck <---Is working on having a minimum $$$ amount attached to it..

PS..Your choice of subjects is much better, now that your 'old favorite' has been 86'ed from the main forum..

Geeze, if this bill passes, guess I'd have to quit playing...LOL!

 

[thintowin]

Gambling vs pure competition

I was raised in the gambling days (70's thru 90's) so i prefer gambling to pure competition. however, when my physical health prevented long hours of play and the necessity of being able to count on that higher gear even during long sessions caused me to embrace torney play and i found out with my physical condition that this was the best of both worlds since many players in tourneys like to bet on matches.

when i moved home, there was no tourney action and i had had my fill of league play ( i consider league play a social event rather than gambling or tourneys.) as a result i returned to gambling and played till a few years back because of not being able to play much more than an hour. The last match i played was for $10 a rack on a valley (simonis cloth) and we played about 3 hours and table time was about $50 each and i came out 1 game up. i couldn't walk for three days.

over my career i guess i booked between 85% winners, and i never was much into name calling. pool is for big boys and wagering is a personal thing, just like a person's style in clothes and such. some enjoy it and some don't.

as far as pool's image, i personally believe just the oppositte of most: i believe the lack of gambling has hurt pool more than it has hurt it. many who don't like to gamble for whatever reason have espoused this line of thought. my personal feeling is that the fall of the middle class and jobs that pay a true living wage is culprit.

wagering brings out the best in a players strong points as well as their weaknesses. as i stated above i went to tourney play to disguise or hide the weaknesses in my own game.

hustler is usually a term utilized by losers who gamble or the jealous sort. i would play anyone when i played so i was sucker to road men, but i didn't consider them hustlers, this was how they made their living. the local hustlers were just players who liked the money and not the challenge. these players also helped my game because when i was able to take them down then i just moved up the food chain.

i never owned a pool table and i never was invited to many home rooms, but that's ok, too. i would rather play in a pool room or bar because it negates most of the home field advantage but it is difficult to have a level playing field all the time.

in closing, i believe it shouldn't be one or the other. i believe the world of pool is big enough for all of us (players and railbirds alike) so i don't really know what good these types of threads offer except here is my nickels worth.

 

[itsfroze]

This is what I'll say casinos are popping up all over the place.
People vote on whether they should have them in their state or not. The fact that there are more and more casinos in more and more states means more people are voting to have them. (think is gambling the issue)

Now to get to the pool part I think people keep bringing up gambling as an issue that is wrong with our game, and I think that does more harm to this game we all love than the gambling itself.

In fact I don't think that gambling does any harm to the game at all.
There's always some self righteous (I am better than you) type of person that wants to say what they do is best and the only way. (so sad)

If somebody doesn't want to gamble they don't have to it's as simple as that. But if you do gamble and you get beat well it makes it really hard to weasel out of things and say I wasn't trying or some other lame excuse. You bet your money you were trying, not only trying but trying your hardest and you lost. So man up and face the fact that sometimes your the bug and sometimes your the windshield, that's all you have to do. If you do this people will actually respect you for it.

I think our society as a whole is getting weaker and weaker and in my eyes this is just one of the small ways that shows this. If you do something and you do it well (or at least you think you do) then there's no reason to not put a few dollars on yourself, and test your skill against the other guy. People don't gamble as much because they just don't have the backbone as people did years ago.

Ever go up to a player at a room who carries themselves as if they are a pretty good player, and not only carries themselves this way but talks a good game too. I am also going to throw in some of the better league players that go around bragging I'm a six or I'm a seven like it means something in the reality of being a good player. I am going to catch heat for the last statement I know (I don't care) I'm speaking the truth. The ones that are the most offended or should I say act the most offended on here about this are most likely the very ones I talking about.

Well anyway getting back to the point you go up and in a nice way ask them if they want to play some for something and they go ballistic like you just ran over their dog or something. Yelling I don't gamble bla bla bla, bla bla bla, you fill in the words you know what I mean you've heard the rant. Where as somebody that just doesn't gamble will just say no thanks I don't gamble and be done with it in the same polite manner you approached them in. (or a least should have)

I have to admit sometimes I just wanted to gamble and sometimes I just wanted to see them go berserk (I'm no angle) but that's my point I'll admit I'm no angel. People today have this trumped up idea of what their ability is (won't admit to themselves even their lack of skill) in fact so trumped up and unrealistic that they get angry when you ask them to play. This is because you are putting them on the spot when you ask them to gamble (its them against you) they don't like that. Your bringing into the light of day what these legions in their own minds thought they could hide form their peers and are hiding from themselves.
All that posturing, tough bravado, false facade they have been polishing for the world to see is about to come crashing down. If they say yes and play poorly not only will their peers see, but they are forced to see the reality of where their game really is. (which would be good for them and their game) If they say no they're peers know it's because they don't play as good as they have been trying to convince the world they do!!!
(most likely reason / or they just don't gamble)
By some of these people saying no they can still protect (at least in their own mind) their falsely amplified thoughts on their ability. Them going berserk is simply a way in their own mind of putting up a smoke screen so no one sees what's really going on or so they like to think. It's amazing what people will go through to protect their own egos, when a simple no if you don't want to gamble or a simple yes if you do would suffice.

My love for the game is why I like to play. But don't let anyone tell you any different if someone comes up to me and asks me to play for the cash
and I have the cash to play, but have to say no because I know I am not good enough to beat them it gives me the incentive to want to practice, not to put on a show that anyone with half a brain sees through anyway.

At how many tournaments do you see a bunch of good players that all gamble and there's all this woofing going on and what usually happens these days nothing no action, but lots of BS.

It wasn't like that years ago because people let their sticks do the talking not their mouths, and if they did talk they backed it up by playing not finding a way to weasel out of playing. Really weasel out on themselves.

When you live in a society that gives trophies to everyone in the league not just the first place team and coddles the average somehow it seems that the expression actions speak louder than words seems to get lost.
Because everyone is to busy reading their own press releases. Because everyone's special or so their told. Yes they are in some way but this is taken to the extreme these days.

Another thing that points to this decay is that the handicap systems seem to not only give the poorer players a chance today but an advantage. Why do I point this out because if you coddle the poorer players as is the politically correct it seems way things are done these days. You not only take away their desire to practice (because if they can win right away why bother) but it's a slap in the face to the player who has put in the time on the table, missed out on other opportunities due to their devotion, and spent lot's of money in the process.

Not to mention that learning is a process and as you go through this process you get better. As you get better you have more fun and you
hopefully start to do better in gambling and/or tournaments. The harder something is to achieve the more it means to one, or that's the way it is supposed to work. There are more bad or poor players than good ones so doesn't it make sense for the room owners to not let them win right away so they have a reason to want to practice.

No in today's society people say if they don't win right away they'll quit so we need to find a way they can win. Horse sh*t not only are you short changing everybody else with this bankrupt thinking but the people you are short changing the most are the people you let win because they never learn to do anything well and to be proud of their skill, ability, and achievement. It's not peoples place to coddle but to encourage people to stand on their own and to be proud of what they've achieved, learned, and earned, but make them earn it. I've heard a player say this game isn't that hard I've only been playing a year and I've already won a tournament, that same player quit eight months later because pool just didn't hold their interest any more I wonder why, who's fault that was?

It's like passing a kid to the next grade even though they should have failed. Your not doing the kid a favor, they didn't learn, that same kid will probably drop out. What is it 25th in math and 17th in science or something like that, the same thing that's been going on in the rest of the U.S. is going on in pool. So let's all stand up as one big, proud, special group, and applaud mediocrity look where it's gotten us. Aren't you proud.
edit,
I wrote this earlier this morning and was serious when writing this but I just got done watching "Two And A Half Men"
they were talking about Alan's kid playing baseball and how they were trying to teach them not to keep score, so Charlie says well maybe you should have thought about that before you taught them how to count, sorry but it fit to well!

 

[itsfroze]

Gambling vs pure competition

I was raised in the gambling days (70's thru 90's) so i prefer gambling to pure competition. however, when my physical health prevented long hours of play and the necessity of being able to count on that higher gear even during long sessions caused me to embrace torney play and i found out with my physical condition that this was the best of both worlds since many players in tourneys like to bet on matches.

when i moved home, there was no tourney action and i had had my fill of league play ( i consider league play a social event rather than gambling or tourneys.) as a result i returned to gambling and played till a few years back because of not being able to play much more than an hour. The last match i played was for $10 a rack on a valley (simonis cloth) and we played about 3 hours and table time was about $50 each and i came out 1 game up. i couldn't walk for three days.

over my career i guess i booked between 85% winners, and i never was much into name calling. pool is for big boys and wagering is a personal thing, just like a person's style in clothes and such. some enjoy it and some don't.

as far as pool's image, i personally believe just the oppositte of most: i believe the lack of gambling has hurt pool more than it has hurt it. many who don't like to gamble for whatever reason have espoused this line of thought. my personal feeling is that the fall of the middle class and jobs that pay a true living wage is culprit.

wagering brings out the best in a players strong points as well as their weaknesses. as i stated above i went to tourney play to disguise or hide the weaknesses in my own game.

hustler is usually a term utilized by losers who gamble or the jealous sort. i would play anyone when i played so i was sucker to road men, but i didn't consider them hustlers, this was how they made their living. the local hustlers were just players who liked the money and not the challenge. these players also helped my game because when i was able to take them down then i just moved up the food chain.

i never owned a pool table and i never was invited to many home rooms, but that's ok, too. i would rather play in a pool room or bar because it negates most of the home field advantage but it is difficult to have a level playing field all the time.

in closing, i believe it shouldn't be one or the other. i believe the world of pool is big enough for all of us (players and railbirds alike) so i don't really know what good these types of threads offer except here is my nickels worth.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but where the hell did you play where three hours each on a bar box was $50 dollars each?

 

[JC]

I don't consider it gambling unless a negative outcome will cut your finances to the point of pain. Any thing less than that is competing.

I have a substantial income from working and do not enjoy gambling, using my definition above. Hard earned money seems to be harder to lose than money originally garnered in the scope of a gambling lifestyle.

I do love to compete however, even if the cost of doing so is a hundred bucks or so. Don't know if these thoughts make any sense. Probably only to a fellow worker. To a pool bum gambler I'm sure there's little question of my nit status. I've heard post game commentary from the no working types after taking off some dough from guys like me and I have no desire to be thought of like that. I would much rather be a nit than a fish.

JC

 

[JoeyA]

Gambling vs pure competition

I was raised in the gambling days (70's thru 90's) so i prefer gambling to pure competition. however, when my physical health prevented long hours of play and the necessity of being able to count on that higher gear even during long sessions caused me to embrace torney play and i found out with my physical condition that this was the best of both worlds since many players in tourneys like to bet on matches.

when i moved home, there was no tourney action and i had had my fill of league play ( i consider league play a social event rather than gambling or tourneys.) as a result i returned to gambling and played till a few years back because of not being able to play much more than an hour. The last match i played was for $10 a rack on a valley (simonis cloth) and we played about 3 hours and table time was about $50 each and i came out 1 game up. i couldn't walk for three days.

over my career i guess i booked between 85% winners, and i never was much into name calling. pool is for big boys and wagering is a personal thing, just like a person's style in clothes and such. some enjoy it and some don't.

as far as pool's image, i personally believe just the oppositte of most: i believe the lack of gambling has hurt pool more than it has hurt it. many who don't like to gamble for whatever reason have espoused this line of thought. my personal feeling is that the fall of the middle class and jobs that pay a true living wage is culprit.

wagering brings out the best in a players strong points as well as their weaknesses. as i stated above i went to tourney play to disguise or hide the weaknesses in my own game.

hustler is usually a term utilized by losers who gamble or the jealous sort. i would play anyone when i played so i was sucker to road men, but i didn't consider them hustlers, this was how they made their living. the local hustlers were just players who liked the money and not the challenge. these players also helped my game because when i was able to take them down then i just moved up the food chain.

i never owned a pool table and i never was invited to many home rooms, but that's ok, too. i would rather play in a pool room or bar because it negates most of the home field advantage but it is difficult to have a level playing field all the time.

in closing, i believe it shouldn't be one or the other. i believe the world of pool is big enough for all of us (players and railbirds alike) so i don't really know what good these types of threads offer except here is my nickels worth.

Your definition of "hustler" made me smile.

What would your definition of "nit" be?

Thanks (not trying to trap you, as I like your description of hustler, even though it is only one definition).
JoeyA

 

[dkleather]

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?

*I compete and I wager, I try never to gamble.

If you gamble, do you do it for the excitement or do you do it for the money or some other reason?

*I wager for the money.

If you do it for the excitement, how much do you win or lose in a year?
(You can use percentages if you like) .

*This looks like being the first year (in over 20) that my outlay on cue sports will exceed my income. Although there is still time ;-)

If you do it for the money, how often do you win? Again, feel free to use percentages as it relates to dollars. In other words, if you lay down frequently for cheap betting so that you can make the big scores, don't count the number of times you laid down versus the number of times you went for the cheese; just compare the total dollars you won and lost and convert them to percentages.

*See above.

If your perspectives about gambling or competing have always been the same throughout your journey, PLEASE SAY SO.

*My perspective has remained almost constant. I now occasionally play "for fun". Let me tell you, there is no fun in that.

If you have an opinion about gambling, please share it in this thread whether you gamble or not.

*Gambling may result in a loss and is to be avoided.

If you have an opinion about competing, please share it in this thread whether you compete or not.

*Competing is wagering at inflated odds.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?

*Not at all.

Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?

*I think someone who only gambles is likely to be a loser.

Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?

*No, but they are not likely to be very good.

Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?

*I don't think hustlers gamble very often. If ever.

Why don't you gamble?
Why don't you compete?

*Do both.

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?

*Wagering should be compulsory.

Is gambling good for pool?

*The purpose of cue sports is for someone to get the money. Good or bad, that's what it IS!

What do you get out of competing?

*To know.

What do you get out of gambling?

Wagering. Generally, the wager.

My questions.

Have you ever played for everything you own?

Have you ever played for all your money?

If these matches took place were you gambling (ie. had you a fair chance of losing)?

 

[JoeyA]

OK,
You've all made some great perspectives and it is nice to see the varied perceptions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Here's my personal thoughts.

I gamble and I compete. I like both for different reasons.

I noticed that no one said they didn't like competing. I like competing because often it is the only way you are going to feel a non-gambler's fire. Some don't gamble and I think that is just fine. Some just like to compete and that's perfectly ok with me.

In many of my past years, I HUSTLED. My definition of hustling is concealing my speed by different methods and then playing someone whom I thought I would have the best of it. Sometimes my gambling was just gambling especially when I didn't know the other person's speed. That type of gambling gave me an exhileration I haven't found anywhere but because of the bruises along the way, I try to keep the throttle on the exhileration aspect of gambling at pool.

About 15 years ago, I decided to improve my game as best I could and gave up worrying about who was walking in the door and started practicing like I compete for tournaments or for gambling. That eliminated a lot of action for me but it started me on a new quest and I am having fun with the new quest.

I like the tournament play because you get a chance to see and play against many different opponents in a short period of time.

With gambling, you most of the time only see one player in that same period of time.

The attraction to gamble has been diminished greatly since I started trying to improve my game rather than lighten someone's wallet, although if asked, I will on occasion still gamble. It is still fun for me and I like it.

Unfortunately, I don't believe gambling is good for the game, not overall anyway. Generally speaking, sponsors condone gambling and most are just against it.

The truth is I haven't seen much good come from gambling. I've seen people lose money that they couldn't afford to lose and I've seen friends become enemies over losses. I've seen fights break out over a dollar and I know many a car has been vandalized because someone took a loss that they didn't like. I've seen players barred from establishments for gambling. I've seen otherwise decent people reduced to lying, cheating and dumping just so they can make a score. I've seen one or two people beat up so bad because of winning a few dollars that you would have thought they had been in a serious car accident or UFC fight. Don't get me started on how the losers look at the winners. More often than not, the losers see the winners as "thiefs", "cheats", "nits" and lucky, no-good mf****ers.
There are a few gamblers who put their money in action to test their mettle more so than to add significantly to their wallets and I guess I'm one of those. Unfortunately, most gamblers are interested in winning the cash, not testing their mettle. I've got a little larceny in me and I blame it on growing up so damned poor. My first gambling at pool was when I was about 16 or 17 years of age. I learned quickly that when playing Kelly pool on a warped plywood table, if you hit the object ball hard enough, it would find a way to fall in a pocket and won money the first day I ever saw a pool table. That's the truth but it was just for nickels, dimes and quarters so it wasn't big money but it started me on a multi-decade journey of deceit and decadence. Luckily, all that is left is a little cunning on matching up and a slightly less enthusiastic manner of taking another man's money.

On the upside, I've seen some players win some "big" money and be able to pay some bills and upgrade their standard of living if only temporarily. A gambling pool player's life is like that of a fox; chicken today, feathers tomorrow. I haven't seen even one pool player support themself by gambling at pool in a lifestyle that I would consider acceptable. Sure, I've seen some sporting some big scores from time to time, but in the end, it sure looks like it is not a retirement to look forward to. If you look at most of the gambling pool players who have died, they most all have died broke. That's no way to die.

I don't know where my journey will lead me from here on out but there you have it.

Best regards,
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

snipped but it was hard to do so because they were some very candid answers......................

My questions.

Have you ever played for everything you own?

Have you ever played for all your money?

If these matches took place were you gambling (ie. had you a fair chance of losing)?

No, I have never played for everything I own. To me that is stupid. Why would you risk everything you owned. I guess if you didn't own much, it might not be such a bad idea but really, what's the sense in gambling everything you own if you own a few assets or if you have a family?

I have played for all of the money in my pocket and have also played for all of my descretionary funds for a month. If I lost I would not be able to "wager" for a month or so.

If either of those two matches took place with me, I would have had a better chance of winning than losing but the truth is, I would never jeopardize my family's assets, even if I had the best of it.

 

[ShootingArts]

not a fun way to live for long

OK,
You've all made some great perspectives and it is nice to see the varied perceptions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Here's my personal thoughts.

I gamble and I compete. I like both for different reasons.

I noticed that no one said they didn't like competing. I like competing because often it is the only way you are going to feel a non-gambler's fire. Some don't gamble and I think that is just fine. Some just like to compete and that's perfectly ok with me.

In many of my past years, I HUSTLED. My definition of hustling is concealing my speed by different methods and then playing someone whom I thought I would have the best of it. Sometimes my gambling was just gambling especially when I didn't know the other person's speed. That type of gambling gave me an exhileration I haven't found anywhere but because of the bruises along the way, I try to keep the throttle on the exhileration aspect of gambling at pool.

About 15 years ago, I decided to improve my game as best I could and gave up worrying about who was walking in the door and started practicing like I compete for tournaments or for gambling. That eliminated a lot of action for me but it started me on a new quest and I am having fun with the new quest.

I like the tournament play because you get a chance to see and play against many different opponents in a short period of time.

With gambling, you most of the time only see one player in that same period of time.

The attraction to gamble has been diminished greatly since I started trying to improve my game rather than lighten someone's wallet, although if asked, I will on occasion still gamble. It is still fun for me and I like it.

Unfortunately, I don't believe gambling is good for the game, not overall anyway. Generally speaking, sponsors condone gambling and most are just against it.

The truth is I haven't seen much good come from gambling. I've seen people lose money that they couldn't afford to lose and I've seen friends become enemies over losses. I've seen fights break out over a dollar and I know many a car has been vandalized because someone took a loss that they didn't like. I've seen players barred from establishments for gambling. I've seen otherwise decent people reduced to lying, cheating and dumping just so they can make a score. I've seen one or two people beat up so bad because of winning a few dollars that you would have thought they had been in a serious car accident or UFC fight. Don't get me started on how the losers look at the winners. More often than not, the losers see the winners as "thiefs", "cheats", "nits" and lucky, no-good mf****ers.
There are a few gamblers who put their money in action to test their mettle more so than to add significantly to their wallets and I guess I'm one of those. Unfortunately, most gamblers are interested in winning the cash, not testing their mettle. I've got a little larceny in me and I blame it on growing up so damned poor. My first gambling at pool was when I was about 16 or 17 years of age. I learned quickly that when playing Kelly pool on a warped plywood table, if you hit the object ball hard enough, it would find a way to fall in a pocket and won money the first day I ever saw a pool table. That's the truth but it was just for nickels, dimes and quarters so it wasn't big money but it started me on a multi-decade journey of deceit and decadence. Luckily, all that is left is a little cunning on matching up and a slightly less enthusiastic manner of taking another man's money.

On the upside, I've seen some players win some "big" money and be able to pay some bills and upgrade their standard of living if only temporarily. A gambling pool player's life is like that of a fox; chicken today, feathers tomorrow. I haven't seen even one pool player support themself by gambling at pool in a lifestyle that I would consider acceptable. Sure, I've seen some sporting some big scores from time to time, but in the end, it sure looks like it is not a retirement to look forward to. If you look at most of the gambling pool players who have died, they most all have died broke. That's no way to die.

I don't know where my journey will lead me from here on out but there you have it.

Best regards,
JoeyA

Joey,

You pretty much cover it. I never tried to make a living playing pool long term but I did carry myself over a few rough spots lasting a few months here and there by playing pool. I put in as many hours and made as much or more than I made at my usual occupations. That is the good side. The bad side is that any pleasure you feel at first fades rapidly. I didn't match up to challenge myself, the last thing I wanted to do if I could help it. I didn't let out a half a degree more speed than needed to win either so most of the time playing pool was plain boring. I have a hard time remembering people, places, or wins from these periods. I was just chopping wood, might as well have been turning wrenches or climbing iron.

There isn't any pride or feeling of accomplishment in winning these matches and this money, the match-up is a foregone conclusion before it starts. It feels good at first to see that you can make your nut but that feeling wears off in a hurry. Clubbing baby seals for a living is a sorry way of living, my opinion anyway. A few months of living off of pool and I was always eager to take the first decent paying job that came along.

Hu

 

[poolrod]

Playing pool for money is not gambling,lol.

That is what a Judge said in Washington State. He said it was two people testing their skills. It could be for fun, a house, a car, whatever, but they are just testing their skills. Side betting is gambling, he said. I used to play pool for a living. I made an average of $40 grand a year. I also loved to teach the game, I loved to. A lot of places didn't mind if I showed up for a money shoot, because I would help the new players improve their game. I never charged anybody for advise. I hated the guy that would (only play for cash), because he didn't want to show somebody something for nothing. I loved to beat those guys. Cheers.:thumbup:

 

[pt109]

Joey,

You pretty much cover it. I never tried to make a living playing pool long term but I did carry myself over a few rough spots lasting a few months here and there by playing pool. I put in as many hours and made as much or more than I made at my usual occupations. That is the good side. The bad side is that any pleasure you feel at first fades rapidly. I didn't match up to challenge myself, the last thing I wanted to do if I could help it. I didn't let out a half a degree more speed than needed to win either so most of the time playing pool was plain boring. I have a hard time remembering people, places, or wins from these periods. I was just chopping wood, might as well have been turning wrenches or climbing iron.

There isn't any pride or feeling of accomplishment in winning these matches and this money, the match-up is a foregone conclusion before it starts. It feels good at first to see that you can make your nut but that feeling wears off in a hurry. Clubbing baby seals for a living is a sorry way of living, my opinion anyway. A few months of living off of pool and I was always eager to take the first decent paying job that came along.

Hu

You must be really messed up, Hu.....'cause we see eye to eye on many
things.....and I could make a shrink need help.:embarrassed2:

I had about 4 stints in my life being an action player....but if you make
it a life-time proposition, it becomes a burden to your spirit.

I like action and I don't think I ever understood my relationship to the
game until I started playing for serious money. I was a very aggressive
player, but when the price got steep, you start to question what shots
you really have the right to go for.
For me, betting more money than you care to lose makes the bs stop.
...so, I don't think you can really understand the game until you play
it under heat.
I tried to be a lone wolf but I tend to be a gregarious person, so when
I would get too involved in the billiard community...I'd go back to work.

But the old action players are what developed this game, gave it a mystique and created a body of knowledge that still is an influence
today....just like golf. Yeah, golf! In the 50's there were still great
golfers that stayed in action rather than play for modest purses.

But I would still like the game to get bigger, playing professionally
is the way everybody can win, even the fans and sponsors.

 

[ShootingArts]

betting large

You must be really messed up, Hu.....'cause we see eye to eye on many
things.....and I could make a shrink need help.:embarrassed2:

I had about 4 stints in my life being an action player....but if you make
it a life-time proposition, it becomes a burden to your spirit.

I like action and I don't think I ever understood my relationship to the
game until I started playing for serious money. I was a very aggressive
player, but when the price got steep, you start to question what shots
you really have the right to go for.
For me, betting more money than you care to lose makes the bs stop.
...so, I don't think you can really understand the game until you play
it under heat.
I tried to be a lone wolf but I tend to be a gregarious person, so when
I would get too involved in the billiard community...I'd go back to work.

But the old action players are what developed this game, gave it a mystique and created a body of knowledge that still is an influence
today....just like golf. Yeah, golf! In the 50's there were still great
golfers that stayed in action rather than play for modest purses.

But I would still like the game to get bigger, playing professionally
is the way everybody can win, even the fans and sponsors.

When I was about twenty-five I bet everything I had gained in assets up to that point, $80,000, on one game of barbox eight ball. That game took twenty or thirty minutes to play, it did make us both think! The other player got his money a little easier than I did but neither wanted to lose. As part of the bet we agreed to lag for the break and I figured I was just over 50-50 to win if I lost the lag, more like 75-25 if I won the lag and he wasn't crafty enough to open up my basically safe break. I won the lag and was better at breaking up clusters and playing shape than he was.

I played a pretty interesting game of barbox eight ball for just a hundred dollars too. I had twenty in my pocket and my two friends with me had about another twenty between them! I was a huge favorite in the game but couldn't overlook "stuff" happens on a barbox, especially when I had been awake over 24 hours playing at six AM. Only time I remember playing on air. Although we both knew the other had to close a deal to pay off the $80,000 bet it wasn't exactly air.

Don't really know why I got in that stupid mode for awhile but there were months in my late teens when if I ate that day or not was riding on the pool table most days. I'd scrounge a few dollars doing an odd job or selling junk and head to the pool table. The first beer on a totally empty digestive system bit all the way down. Usually the first few dollar bet I made was my entire bankroll. I almost always won and had my one late night meal of the day. I drank whatever was left over most nights and started the next day broke more often than not. I didn't really care and would do the same thing again each new day. Did put a wee bit of pressure on me to win that first game of the evening!

Hu

 

[CharlesUFarley]

For definition purposes as it relates to pool, let's consider gambling to include wagering between individuals, gambling in partner games, match games for money, gambling for little bucks and gambling for big bucks with hustling for money thrown in for good measure.

We'll eliminate league play sandbagging, tournament play, practice etc from gambling and add those to Competing. Participating in calcuttas will be part of competing as well.

Competing for definition's sake will be competing in events or matches where there is prestige at stake, tournament winnings (whether they be for cash or other prizes). These will not include match games like the gambling matches that TAR puts on where there is substantial amounts of money to be made by either player, either with stake horses, their money or Tar's money. (Yes, I know that there is substantial money to be made in tournament play but that will be considered "competing".

Many of us play the game of pocket billiards for whatever enjoyment we get out of it and gambling and competing simply aren't part of the equation. I get that but that's not part of this thread.

The questions that I have are as follows:

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?
I do both.

If you gamble, do you do it for the excitement or do you do it for the money or some other reason?I do it for excitement mainly. I like to make it rewarding to play well and a litte painful to play poorly.

If you do it for the excitement, how much do you win or lose in a year?
(You can use percentages if you like) . I would like to think I win a bit more than I lose, but I don't keep close track. I like to match up in fair games. I'm far from a locksmith

If you do it for the money, how often do you win? Again, feel free to use percentages as it relates to dollars. In other words, if you lay down frequently for cheap betting so that you can make the big scores, don't count the number of times you laid down versus the number of times you went for the cheese; just compare the total dollars you won and lost and convert them to percentages.I almost never lay down to make a bigger score. That is almost. If I think I have the mortal nuts in a game, I will occasionally let my opponent win a game or at least give them a shot so they will continue without adjusting the spot.

I will be happy to share my candid perspectives about my own gambling or competing but don't want to sully this thread right off, with my thoughts. :grin:

I have some interesting perspectives and they have changed form over the years and continue to do so. In my opinion, there is no right or wrong answer for any of you. I have traveled many of your paths and an curious as to your perspectives. If your perspectives about gambling or competing have always been the same throughout your journey, PLEASE SAY SO.

If you have an opinion about gambling, please share it in this thread whether you gamble or not.

If you have an opinion about competing, please share it in this thread whether you compete or not.

To give some wings to this thread, I'll toss up a few additional questions and feel free to add your own questions.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?No

Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?No

Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?No

Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?Most?...Yes. All?...No

Why don't you gamble?
Why don't you compete?

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?Yes. The Law should not concern themselves with victimless "crimes". If two consenting adults want to engage in any activity that doesnt affect anyone other than them, that's their deal.

Is gambling good for pool?Definitely. I think it should be embraced. I also think it is the only way to get non players interested in watching pool. All the way from the negotiotiation process to the exchange of the cheese. It could experience the same surge that poker has if they would stop trying to dress up like golfers and hide the fact that they are gunslingers who have a ton of gamble, heart, and actual personalities. Obviously, trying to hide the gambling hasn't brought any interest.

What do you get out of competing?Excitement/Adrenaline rush

What do you get out of gambling?Same

I know that is a lot of questions and you don't have to answer all of them. Maybe you will consider answering just one of them. It's all about sharing your perspective no matter what side of the fence you are on.

I'll share mine after the thread gets rolling if that's all right with most of you.

Thanks,
JoeyA

...////////

 

[JC]

No, I have never played for everything I own. To me that is stupid. Why would you risk everything you owned. I guess if you didn't own much, it might not be such a bad idea but really, what's the sense in gambling everything you own if you own a few assets or if you have a family?

I have played for all of the money in my pocket and have also played for all of my descretionary funds for a month. If I lost I would not be able to "wager" for a month or so.

If either of those two matches took place with me, I would have had a better chance of winning than losing but the truth is, I would never jeopardize my family's assets, even if I had the best of it.

That's just a cop out. Every time you wager any money that could be put in the bank for a rainy day you are in fact jeopardizing your families assets. Not saying it's the end of the world, just that you are in denial of what it really is.

JC

 

[Underclocked]

I forgot the questions. :grin:

 

[JoeyA]

That's just a cop out. Every time you wager any money that could be put in the bank for a rainy day you are in fact jeopardizing your families assets. Not saying it's the end of the world, just that you are in denial of what it really is.

JC

You had better put that pipe down. If you don't see the difference between betting some small money that's not going to injure your family and betting everything you have, then I can't help you.

 

[UPlayLucky]

OK,
If you look at most of the gambling pool players who have died, they most all have died broke. That's no way to die.

Best regards,
JoeyA

Some of these gambling pool players have had very captivating lives and at times have lived richer than people hoarding vast wealth.

Which is worse, to live rich and die holding memories or to live poor but die with your pockets full of money.