Title says it all. Most of the good players around here, and as far as I can tell everywhere, judge a players speed mostly by how well he/she can compete while gambling. Why do you think this is?
Thanks,
David
Thanks,
David
Gambling as a measure of skill?
- Thread starter crawdaddio
- Start date
crawdaddio said:
My personal opinion is because sets in tournaments are relatively short, and since there is a lot of luck in pool, anyone can win a race to 7 or 9 -- especially with the winner breaking on bucket pockets (as is the case in most tournaments). Most gambling sessions, on the other hand, last much longer than tournament sets, so you are more able to definitively judge a player's speed.
But I also believe that tournaments are tougher for the same reason. In a tournament you have to come out firing from the get-go. When your gambling, you can usually weather some bad games or sets without being in danger of losing the session.
I think that's crap David. In my opinion, a person's skill has nothing to do with whether they can play under pressure or not. Some people play better for money, and some play worse. I'd say the best measure of a player's skill, is their average game. Not their best, nor their worst. How do you measure a person's average game? Who knows.
I've seen a pro level player who regularly wins tournaments and cheap sets, fold for bigger money. And by bigger money, I don't mean huge. Just hundreds. I would never say that his skill is lowered by that fact though. He just doesn't gamble well.
I've seen a pro level player who regularly wins tournaments and cheap sets, fold for bigger money. And by bigger money, I don't mean huge. Just hundreds. I would never say that his skill is lowered by that fact though. He just doesn't gamble well.
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Pressure
This is crap. Only the best can play under pressure. Say you're playing baseball, you it 100 homeruns in a row in practice, but stikeout 100 in a real game what are you? A loser, plain and simple. It's all about being able to play under pressure either in a tournament format or gambling format. Run 8 balls and miss the nine, you dont get paid.
Maybe you get to the hill and puke it up, but I get to the hill and ring it up!
Thats my view.
jer9ball said:
This is crap. Only the best can play under pressure. Say you're playing baseball, you it 100 homeruns in a row in practice, but stikeout 100 in a real game what are you? A loser, plain and simple. It's all about being able to play under pressure either in a tournament format or gambling format. Run 8 balls and miss the nine, you dont get paid.
Maybe you get to the hill and puke it up, but I get to the hill and ring it up!
Thats my view.
I agree that it's crap, and that's why I posed the question. It seems, at least in my town, the good players ALWAYS want to gamble. I play a pretty good game, I think, but when it comes to gambling I usually choke pretty hard, which is why I generally don't gamble. For this, I have recently heard that I am a nit and I think it's because I have been seen gambling and when I am approached (by some players) wanting a game I usually don't want it. I like to PLAY POOL and when I gamble, especially with someone who should beat me, it seems my game just falls apart. Some friends have told me that this is something I HAVE TO get better at if I want to improve my game. Now, are they speaking the truth, or do they just want to make money....whether they are backing or playing me? I don't know.........................
David
David
I think we seem to judge a player by their gambling strength mostly because gambling provides the most information. If I tell you that player X placed fouth in a tournament and beat players Y and Z along the way, that tells you something about player X's speed. But if I tell you that player X gave player Y the seven ball and came up winner, but couldn't beat player Z playing even, that tells you much more.
I also think that we can look at a player's skill in a particular arena. We all know someone who can win tournaments but can't win $20. That player is a strong player IN TOURNAMENTS. We certainly recognize these differences in the games we play. Some play strong nineball, or one pocket, or whatever. I guess I'm saying that every player has strengths and weaknesses, so judging a player's skill is a complex and tricky thing.
I also think that we can look at a player's skill in a particular arena. We all know someone who can win tournaments but can't win $20. That player is a strong player IN TOURNAMENTS. We certainly recognize these differences in the games we play. Some play strong nineball, or one pocket, or whatever. I guess I'm saying that every player has strengths and weaknesses, so judging a player's skill is a complex and tricky thing.
crawdaddio said:
Just because you don't gamble doesn't make you a Nit. Whoever told you that has no idea what a "Nit" is.
The general definition of A "Nit" in pool/gambling is someone who will get into a money game, but won't lose anything. What I mean by this is that a "Nit" simply takes a chance that his opponent will "go off". For example, let's say I agree to play someone $50 a game, and I wind up losing $400 before I quit. If this guy was only willing to lose one or two games, then this is a "Nit". A "Nit" may be willing to play for good money, but he is really only taking a chance that he gets ahead of his opponent early and that his opponent goes off the deep end. It's a no-win situation playing a "Nit", because you might lose, but you'll never be able to win anything off him.
This is why you see experienced gamblers playing freezeouts, where neither player can quit until a certail player wins a pre-specified amount -- like 8-ahead for $500, for example.
Its Up 2 U
I think gambling in pool can be learned. It takes time, commitment, and practice. Some people dont have the time or energy. But if you need to you do it. Some people take to it like a duck takes to water. Some are awkward to it and have to work on it. You dog it for the cash. You keep doing it and working on your skills you dog it less and less. Some people live in environment where gambling is in the norm. I hear in the Phillipines it is done regularly. A rite of passage into adulthood. Some people will have no qualms about dropping hundreds in Vegas but will get the shakes playing $20 sets of 9 ball.
Saying all of this I dont think because you are a great gambler makes you a better human being or more of a MAN. Thats a lame concept. Last nite I was playing an old friend and we were betting small. I drilled him in 14.1 and he started talking about well if we were gambling for some stakes the outcome would be different. He started with that macho shit and the fact is I drilled him. But more than that I lost respect for my friend. Gambling makes people act funny and you have to figure out which is more important to you. I dont like to gamble high with friends because a lot of the times it brings out bad feelings. But I will say that gambling has improved my game and focus on it. I just hate gamblers who put down people who dont gamble. In other words its a choice.
I think gambling in pool can be learned. It takes time, commitment, and practice. Some people dont have the time or energy. But if you need to you do it. Some people take to it like a duck takes to water. Some are awkward to it and have to work on it. You dog it for the cash. You keep doing it and working on your skills you dog it less and less. Some people live in environment where gambling is in the norm. I hear in the Phillipines it is done regularly. A rite of passage into adulthood. Some people will have no qualms about dropping hundreds in Vegas but will get the shakes playing $20 sets of 9 ball.
Saying all of this I dont think because you are a great gambler makes you a better human being or more of a MAN. Thats a lame concept. Last nite I was playing an old friend and we were betting small. I drilled him in 14.1 and he started talking about well if we were gambling for some stakes the outcome would be different. He started with that macho shit and the fact is I drilled him. But more than that I lost respect for my friend. Gambling makes people act funny and you have to figure out which is more important to you. I dont like to gamble high with friends because a lot of the times it brings out bad feelings. But I will say that gambling has improved my game and focus on it. I just hate gamblers who put down people who dont gamble. In other words its a choice.
bruin70 said:
This is exactly my point. There is an image, including and even moreso among "players", that if you play pool, at some point you MUST gamble on pool. In my opinion this is bull#$@!. Not because I am against gambling, but because it is expected of you.
Gambling is a contest of wills, skills and nerves.
Funny that non-money players will make the simple shots and but blow them when huge money is on the line. Muscles react differently under pressure.
A friend of mine is a B+ player. He becomes an A player when money is on the line.
He always amazes me when he plays for money.
Once he took on a road player. The road player wanted a 2-set minimum session. Race to 11 for $500 a set. Road player was ahead 10-5 the first set. My friend came back and beat the road player. Road player QUITS but my friend was nice enough to let him off the hook on the second set b/c the other guy was just devastated.
Funny that non-money players will make the simple shots and but blow them when huge money is on the line. Muscles react differently under pressure.
A friend of mine is a B+ player. He becomes an A player when money is on the line.
He always amazes me when he plays for money.
Once he took on a road player. The road player wanted a 2-set minimum session. Race to 11 for $500 a set. Road player was ahead 10-5 the first set. My friend came back and beat the road player. Road player QUITS but my friend was nice enough to let him off the hook on the second set b/c the other guy was just devastated.
I would have to agree with most things that have been said for both sides of the coin. But I want to share with you all a little story. Take it as how you see fit.
Not to long ago I was playing with a person who I play with on a regular basis. I didn't really like this guy at all but you end up playing the same people a lot in your local hall. Now, there was no question that I was by far the suprior player on every level, but this person was cocky as all hell. One day, he asked if I wanted to play and then asked if he could borrow a stick since his tip was being replaced. I lent him a 1000 dollar cue. He then says he will beat me with my own stick, with attitude. Well, I thought for a moment and knowing this person is BROKE, and i mean he has nothing, and values every dollar. He has no pride or self esteem so I can't take that away from him. I knew I needed to go for the money. I asked him if he wanted to play some cheap sets. He said no like always since he can't afford to loose.
I lost ten games in a row to him. GOt him to bet one race to 5 for 25 bucks. I let him win a few here in there in hopes he thought his best game could beat me. When I won, I asked him if he wanted to go double or nothing and he said no. Pulled out his wallet and began to hand me the money.
Now some of you might disagree with what i did, but I told him to keep his money. I realized at that very moment that it WAS NOT the money I was after. It was the WIN. I hate when I loose and there are times that I feel bad when I win. I have never gambled since then and nor do I plan to.
Some people don't gamble. Now judge my speed? Am I as good as the Pro's NO WAY JOSE! But I do play for hours and hours just about every day and really dedicate my life to getting better. I hope to be that good one day.
Even though he is disliked and he gambled, I think Earl Strickland was the prototypical pool player and he treated this game how it should have been, not a rape and pillage back bar game, but a PURE SPORT. I don't look down on anyone who gambles at all, don't get me wrong, I play tons of poker, but knowing my way of play, I can't say that gambling is the true way to tell a persons speed.
But, I also must agree that "pressure" is a major major major major, component to someones all around game
Thanks for listening,
Jordan
Not to long ago I was playing with a person who I play with on a regular basis. I didn't really like this guy at all but you end up playing the same people a lot in your local hall. Now, there was no question that I was by far the suprior player on every level, but this person was cocky as all hell. One day, he asked if I wanted to play and then asked if he could borrow a stick since his tip was being replaced. I lent him a 1000 dollar cue. He then says he will beat me with my own stick, with attitude. Well, I thought for a moment and knowing this person is BROKE, and i mean he has nothing, and values every dollar. He has no pride or self esteem so I can't take that away from him. I knew I needed to go for the money. I asked him if he wanted to play some cheap sets. He said no like always since he can't afford to loose.
I lost ten games in a row to him. GOt him to bet one race to 5 for 25 bucks. I let him win a few here in there in hopes he thought his best game could beat me. When I won, I asked him if he wanted to go double or nothing and he said no. Pulled out his wallet and began to hand me the money.
Now some of you might disagree with what i did, but I told him to keep his money. I realized at that very moment that it WAS NOT the money I was after. It was the WIN. I hate when I loose and there are times that I feel bad when I win. I have never gambled since then and nor do I plan to.
Some people don't gamble. Now judge my speed? Am I as good as the Pro's NO WAY JOSE! But I do play for hours and hours just about every day and really dedicate my life to getting better. I hope to be that good one day.
Even though he is disliked and he gambled, I think Earl Strickland was the prototypical pool player and he treated this game how it should have been, not a rape and pillage back bar game, but a PURE SPORT. I don't look down on anyone who gambles at all, don't get me wrong, I play tons of poker, but knowing my way of play, I can't say that gambling is the true way to tell a persons speed.
But, I also must agree that "pressure" is a major major major major, component to someones all around game
Thanks for listening,
Jordan
Sprint vs Marathon and Parica
In this thread, it has been well documented and thoughtfully presented that success in a gambling situation is both easier and harder than tournament match play. Easier because one can have a slow start, but tougher because more stamina may be needed. Even in large-field tournaments, breaks between matches are common, so players ususally get to come up for air.
The successful gambler is a good marathoner, whereas the tournament player runs a series of sprints well. Both the good gambler and the good tournament player are to be admired, and those that succeed at both are deserving of great respect.
Conventional wisdom says a great player is a great player, but it takes different qualities to succeed in the two playing disciplines. Consder Jose Parica. For years, Parica, though an accomplished tourney player, has considered himself a far better gambler than tournament competitor. Indeed, Parica may have had greater playing stamina, both physically and mentally, over a long session, than any player of the past twenty five years.
It's best to recognize that it take special qualities to win tournaments or gambling sessions, and that there's no particular reason to say that the great gambler is either inferior or superior to the great tournament player. Greatness can come in more than one flavor, and it does just that over the green felt.
In this thread, it has been well documented and thoughtfully presented that success in a gambling situation is both easier and harder than tournament match play. Easier because one can have a slow start, but tougher because more stamina may be needed. Even in large-field tournaments, breaks between matches are common, so players ususally get to come up for air.
The successful gambler is a good marathoner, whereas the tournament player runs a series of sprints well. Both the good gambler and the good tournament player are to be admired, and those that succeed at both are deserving of great respect.
Conventional wisdom says a great player is a great player, but it takes different qualities to succeed in the two playing disciplines. Consder Jose Parica. For years, Parica, though an accomplished tourney player, has considered himself a far better gambler than tournament competitor. Indeed, Parica may have had greater playing stamina, both physically and mentally, over a long session, than any player of the past twenty five years.
It's best to recognize that it take special qualities to win tournaments or gambling sessions, and that there's no particular reason to say that the great gambler is either inferior or superior to the great tournament player. Greatness can come in more than one flavor, and it does just that over the green felt.
Here's what I think:
If a person can gamble well, then he's a good gambler.
Being good at pool has nothing to do with gambling. It has everything to do with BEING GOOD AT POOL. The legendary road player happens to be good at both.
I don't particularly like to gamble, and I'm not good at it. I've heard the argument that a "real" pool player needs to be a proficient gambler, and I think that's bullshit. I love the game of pool, and my goal isn't to break a fellow player out of his cash; it's to shoot pool at the highest level I can shoot at. That's what gives me satisfaction on the pool table.
-Roger
If a person can gamble well, then he's a good gambler.
Being good at pool has nothing to do with gambling. It has everything to do with BEING GOOD AT POOL. The legendary road player happens to be good at both.
I don't particularly like to gamble, and I'm not good at it. I've heard the argument that a "real" pool player needs to be a proficient gambler, and I think that's bullshit. I love the game of pool, and my goal isn't to break a fellow player out of his cash; it's to shoot pool at the highest level I can shoot at. That's what gives me satisfaction on the pool table.
-Roger
Gambling rumor/european players
Hi to all,
one of the best threads on this issue!!
Regarding gambling, here in Germany there are constantly debates going on why it takes German Players so long to have a breaktrough in the US tournamnent scene. A commen argument goes like this: " Since all of the top american players are also known to be good money players from their early stages on, they have developed a stronger killer instinct on the table than the european players" Since the pool scene is in terms of gambling money much smaller here than in the US its hard to find a worthy game for the top notch players without giving away tremendous spots.
If this was true, than gambling makes you a better tournament player as well. If I recall it correct Ralf Souquet and others took several trips to the US before the made a top 10 appearence in a bigger tournament. What is your opinion about the differences between the top US players and the top German players like:
Oliver Ortmann
Ralf Soquet
Thorsten Hohmann
Regards,
Markus
Hi to all,
one of the best threads on this issue!!
Regarding gambling, here in Germany there are constantly debates going on why it takes German Players so long to have a breaktrough in the US tournamnent scene. A commen argument goes like this: " Since all of the top american players are also known to be good money players from their early stages on, they have developed a stronger killer instinct on the table than the european players" Since the pool scene is in terms of gambling money much smaller here than in the US its hard to find a worthy game for the top notch players without giving away tremendous spots.
If this was true, than gambling makes you a better tournament player as well. If I recall it correct Ralf Souquet and others took several trips to the US before the made a top 10 appearence in a bigger tournament. What is your opinion about the differences between the top US players and the top German players like:
Oliver Ortmann
Ralf Soquet
Thorsten Hohmann
Regards,
Markus
predator said:
As an anonymous road player once said, "I don't come to your work and ask you to work for free!", pool is their job. No one is twisting the weaker players arm to play, well most of the time anyway. They usually do that after you can't come up with the money.
predator said:
Sounds like some pro gave you a ridiculous spot, then kicked your butt.
I've seen really good players who will not gamble. But, it seems the GREAT players will always put up the $$$.