ScottW said:
I'll take the last 2 and try some.
This thread is silly. Who cares how many racks I run at home alone and without witness?
The belt just hold up your pants!
Gambling DOES NOT help your game, ever!
- Thread starter smashmouth
- Start date
I'll take the last 2 and try some.
This thread is silly. Who cares how many racks I run at home alone and without witness?
The belt just hold up your pants!
Here's a very good analogy, if given the chance, ask any of the world's
top Snooker and 3 Cushion players if they spent much time gambling while learning the game.
They simply don't do it.
top Snooker and 3 Cushion players if they spent much time gambling while learning the game.
They simply don't do it.
It helps...
Smashmouth,
I must come from a different plant than you. I never had the opportunity to experience playing pool for nothing...when I started playing @ 14yrs old my buddies and I bet on who payed for the game(back then you had to yell "RACK IN THE BACK"). The gambling esculated from there. I actually believed there was an unwritten rule that gambling on a pool game was part of the game. I honestly believe I never played a game of pool until I was 45 yrs old that didn't have something riding on the outcome. That first time was when I got my first home table and a new neighbor came over to inspect my new toy. I didn't feel it was being a good neighbor to rob him so I played a couple of games with him for nothing but it really felt wrong. I did learn something from that experience though, I learned how to FAKE IT.....I have played alot of pool since then for nothing but never at top speed. It just gives me this empty feeling when I run over someone just to feed my ego. Now if I have to play kiss your sister pool I just take advantage of the situation by shooting stupid low % shots, power stroke shots that should be pocket speed, and just goof off and have some laughs. Heck, you'd probably kick my butt for nothing.....
I must come from a different plant than you. I never had the opportunity to experience playing pool for nothing...when I started playing @ 14yrs old my buddies and I bet on who payed for the game(back then you had to yell "RACK IN THE BACK"). The gambling esculated from there. I actually believed there was an unwritten rule that gambling on a pool game was part of the game. I honestly believe I never played a game of pool until I was 45 yrs old that didn't have something riding on the outcome. That first time was when I got my first home table and a new neighbor came over to inspect my new toy. I didn't feel it was being a good neighbor to rob him so I played a couple of games with him for nothing but it really felt wrong. I did learn something from that experience though, I learned how to FAKE IT.....I have played alot of pool since then for nothing but never at top speed. It just gives me this empty feeling when I run over someone just to feed my ego. Now if I have to play kiss your sister pool I just take advantage of the situation by shooting stupid low % shots, power stroke shots that should be pocket speed, and just goof off and have some laughs. Heck, you'd probably kick my butt for nothing.....
smashmouth said:
Not at all, but Efren has talked about pressure resilience due to his constant gambling and I think he makes a valid point. Are you saying that you think you can prepare for a match in front of hundreds of people by practising alone in your basement? The whole concept of practising is to prepare yourself for the situation that you are practising for. In pool your technique is is susceptible to pressure, any player that has played under pressure can relate to this. When you are playing by yourself or for fun against your friends it is NOT THE SAME pressure. For me there are two parts that need to be recreated a) making the game matter to recreated intense competition, and b) playing in front of a large crowd. Both can be acheived via a money match, but are harder to achieve via other means although not impossible. Certain drills can put pressure on your game, playing the ghost or trying to break your straight pool high run. Not letting yourself go home until you make a 100 break or whatever. But its still not the same.
Efren is not the only successful pool player that gambles, if you took a poll of the top 50 I think the majority would do.
smashmouth said:
Snooker players most certainly do, you never heard of points/golf? I can't speak fo 1 pocket. But if none of the do a) I'd be suprised and b) it wouldn't relate to this debate becuase you wouldnt be able to compare one that does against one that doesn't so we wouldn't know if it would give them an edge!
Here are two different questions you have to ask yourself before you take a side on this issue:
1. What pool instruction is available? If there are no pros in your area or nobody that you trust to teach you, then finding a match to play in may be a better solution, be it a cash game or just simply practice.
2. How do you learn best? Will you learn more by having someone straighten out your stroke and/or dictate strategy to you? Are you the type that learns by example and seeing your opponent run out on you first hand?
3. If you are still in the middle of the two, analyze the cost involved in each and make a decision based on that. If a one hour lesson costs you one hundred dollars, but you figure to lose fifty/one hundred/hundreds an hour in a cash game, which one is going to be more cost effective to your game?
Gambling on pool may not be the definitive answer to improving anyone's game. However, it may add to someone's knowledge base and improve their game. For anyone who hasn't tried it, I heavily suggest taking a small amount of money you can afford to lose and try it at least once. You have to at least get a feel for the gambling mentality before you can decide whether or not it's for you.
1. What pool instruction is available? If there are no pros in your area or nobody that you trust to teach you, then finding a match to play in may be a better solution, be it a cash game or just simply practice.
2. How do you learn best? Will you learn more by having someone straighten out your stroke and/or dictate strategy to you? Are you the type that learns by example and seeing your opponent run out on you first hand?
3. If you are still in the middle of the two, analyze the cost involved in each and make a decision based on that. If a one hour lesson costs you one hundred dollars, but you figure to lose fifty/one hundred/hundreds an hour in a cash game, which one is going to be more cost effective to your game?
Gambling on pool may not be the definitive answer to improving anyone's game. However, it may add to someone's knowledge base and improve their game. For anyone who hasn't tried it, I heavily suggest taking a small amount of money you can afford to lose and try it at least once. You have to at least get a feel for the gambling mentality before you can decide whether or not it's for you.
Smashmouth:
If you want to become a preacher, then get a church. I've taken lessons, and have played for many years. Because my work is very demanding, I cannot play on leauges, as I cannot be certain that I will be available to play or off handling a work related emergency. So that type of competition is out.
I didn't believe in gambling either, my opionion was that gambling wasn't going to do anything for me that additional practice couldn't. Anyway, I felt that relative to my income, I would have to bet $2000 - $3000 per rack minimum to perk me up. I was wrong. I was challenged to a very small money friendly game while waiting for some minor joint work to be done on a cue. I decided to give it a shot. It was amazing the change in attitude that even $20/rack could make. The competition brought out a different psychology. A different level of focus. I had a reason to be more attentive, and did. I was more careful with shot selection and execution. Yes, I could have done all of this without the bet, but the bet was the incentive. It triggered something that showed me that I wasn't playing to the level that I could. Although I do not gamble much, I still sometimes play for a few bucks. It reminds me of the focus. No, I will never be a professional player or a shortstop or even an A player. That's not my interest, nor vocation. But you cannot tell me that gambling cannot make a difference in my game. Maybe if you had started a thread asking "if" gambling had made any difference in anyones game you would have had a better thread. Instead you climbed on a soap box, balanced on a chair and screamed at everyone.
Dr. C
If you want to become a preacher, then get a church. I've taken lessons, and have played for many years. Because my work is very demanding, I cannot play on leauges, as I cannot be certain that I will be available to play or off handling a work related emergency. So that type of competition is out.
I didn't believe in gambling either, my opionion was that gambling wasn't going to do anything for me that additional practice couldn't. Anyway, I felt that relative to my income, I would have to bet $2000 - $3000 per rack minimum to perk me up. I was wrong. I was challenged to a very small money friendly game while waiting for some minor joint work to be done on a cue. I decided to give it a shot. It was amazing the change in attitude that even $20/rack could make. The competition brought out a different psychology. A different level of focus. I had a reason to be more attentive, and did. I was more careful with shot selection and execution. Yes, I could have done all of this without the bet, but the bet was the incentive. It triggered something that showed me that I wasn't playing to the level that I could. Although I do not gamble much, I still sometimes play for a few bucks. It reminds me of the focus. No, I will never be a professional player or a shortstop or even an A player. That's not my interest, nor vocation. But you cannot tell me that gambling cannot make a difference in my game. Maybe if you had started a thread asking "if" gambling had made any difference in anyones game you would have had a better thread. Instead you climbed on a soap box, balanced on a chair and screamed at everyone.
Dr. C
smashmouth said:
The above statement seems a little foolish.
Gamling is not necessary, however if you want to improve, you must play with better players than yourself! You must be pushed to improve your mentality and game.
You may run into great players in some local, regional or semi-pro tournaments, but they are few and far between. Not really a way to get in the heat of the battle and have to dig on a consistent basis. Maybe you draw one or two, and get in a total of 2-3 hours under the gun.
If you run into a great players outside of a tournament, they will have no interest in playing you unless they can make money. Therefore, you are going to have to bet something. So, you must! If you want to improve. Make the stakes, such that you can get many, many hours of this heat.
Either you will improve, or you will quit!
That's it.
Learning is not playing against someone who is at the same level as you, learning is playing someone who is better than you. Not only that, the person better than you has to actually be trying to win. Hmm... how do we make it so that the better player tries to win... if only there was some way we could encourage him to play his best and see if we can beat that...
to make that kind of statement...
is absurd...you can't tell me that gambling hasn't helped me or the thousands of other pool players out there....for me, it has.
Pool is a non reactionary sport. You have a lot of time to think (regardless if they are positive or negative thoughts) and if you are gambling you have to add another thought in your head. It comes down to being able to bypass all the thoughts and bear down on the shot, and execute successfully. How a player conditions himself to do that, is on them. For some its gambling, for others it could be playing the ghost.
Rodney Morris once stated that you have to play with pressure on you all the time...for most of us, putting money on the line creates that pressure. And yes like poker, if you are playing for fun or fake money...you will take risks you normally wouldn't take. You can ask many pro's out there, do they just want to bang balls around and not take it seriously? It's bad practice.
And I have taken many lessons and that alone won't get you through a tournament or a gambling match. Experience does. My experiences that have led me to play well have been through lessons, gambling and intense practice sessions.
Christian
is absurd...you can't tell me that gambling hasn't helped me or the thousands of other pool players out there....for me, it has.
Pool is a non reactionary sport. You have a lot of time to think (regardless if they are positive or negative thoughts) and if you are gambling you have to add another thought in your head. It comes down to being able to bypass all the thoughts and bear down on the shot, and execute successfully. How a player conditions himself to do that, is on them. For some its gambling, for others it could be playing the ghost.
Rodney Morris once stated that you have to play with pressure on you all the time...for most of us, putting money on the line creates that pressure. And yes like poker, if you are playing for fun or fake money...you will take risks you normally wouldn't take. You can ask many pro's out there, do they just want to bang balls around and not take it seriously? It's bad practice.
And I have taken many lessons and that alone won't get you through a tournament or a gambling match. Experience does. My experiences that have led me to play well have been through lessons, gambling and intense practice sessions.
Christian
It's been my observation/experience that when players start gambling they play more often, daily for hours, with either the same opponent or just a few others.
What they are doing is "putting in the time" at the table and even picking up some self awareness of their playing skills. They play as often as they can and usually only quit when they are busted or the place closes.
Their skill level goes up, but only because they are playing an enormous amount of time compared to just practicing a few hours each day.
When you gamble for 'what you can afford to lose' is their pressure there?
Lee Trivino (pro golfer) once said, 'Pressure is playing for $50 with only $5 in your pocket' (or something close to that)
It's the table time the gambler is putting in that HELPs gets them to the next level.
I've also seen very good gamblers come to a tournament and not be able to compete with lessor skilled players. It has a lot to do with the fact that tournaments are too demanding for these players. The rules don't allow for the gamblers to pull out their bags of tricks (sharking). They have to play a heads up game, with very real rules and in a format that they can't control. Just the opposite from when they gamble. They get to pick the player, the game, the rules, the spot, the amount, the race and time frame. All of these they can control.
Table time with a good instructor, practice, and lots of tournaments will get you to that next level. Pressure is self induced. Wait until you are playing in the finals for the first time and your KNEES turn to Jello.
What they are doing is "putting in the time" at the table and even picking up some self awareness of their playing skills. They play as often as they can and usually only quit when they are busted or the place closes.
Their skill level goes up, but only because they are playing an enormous amount of time compared to just practicing a few hours each day.
When you gamble for 'what you can afford to lose' is their pressure there?
Lee Trivino (pro golfer) once said, 'Pressure is playing for $50 with only $5 in your pocket' (or something close to that)
It's the table time the gambler is putting in that HELPs gets them to the next level.
I've also seen very good gamblers come to a tournament and not be able to compete with lessor skilled players. It has a lot to do with the fact that tournaments are too demanding for these players. The rules don't allow for the gamblers to pull out their bags of tricks (sharking). They have to play a heads up game, with very real rules and in a format that they can't control. Just the opposite from when they gamble. They get to pick the player, the game, the rules, the spot, the amount, the race and time frame. All of these they can control.
Table time with a good instructor, practice, and lots of tournaments will get you to that next level. Pressure is self induced. Wait until you are playing in the finals for the first time and your KNEES turn to Jello.
Before you promote or dismiss gambling, I think you should look at a number of things and make your assessments from there. For starters, the brain does some rather interesting things when you are in fear-mode. We all know about what pressure feels like but there's more. When you're in fear-mode, your brain is taking record of all the events. You will never forget anything that happens while in fear-mode. Your brain does this because it wants to improve how to handle this situation the next time it arises. When you don't feel fear, you forget what happened and you don't learn anything.
Now, with that said, you can accomplish quite a bit if you're constantly putting yourself in fear-mode. Your game will inevitably improve. The question then becomes, what does it take to accomplish this? If you're risking your rent-money then I would say you've taken this game too far. If all it takes an important league-match, then I'd say you have a healthy approach.
It's not too dissimilar to extreme-athletes who feel a need to up their challenges so they feel that adreneline-rush. For some, skiing down a mountain does it. For others, they need to jump out of an airplane. My suggestion would be to keep it in check. You don't need to elevate your risk. You simply need to have a risk.
Now, with that said, you can accomplish quite a bit if you're constantly putting yourself in fear-mode. Your game will inevitably improve. The question then becomes, what does it take to accomplish this? If you're risking your rent-money then I would say you've taken this game too far. If all it takes an important league-match, then I'd say you have a healthy approach.
It's not too dissimilar to extreme-athletes who feel a need to up their challenges so they feel that adreneline-rush. For some, skiing down a mountain does it. For others, they need to jump out of an airplane. My suggestion would be to keep it in check. You don't need to elevate your risk. You simply need to have a risk.
a couple of things, playing for money is table time but I dont think any player should rely on this alone, its not a complete practise, you still need to practise alone to try things you can't when playing for money.
Also you can't relate coaching to playing for money, they both improve two completely different areas of your game. Coaching will improve your skills/knowledge/mechanaics or whatever you want to focus on BUT it can't improve your pressure resilience and this is an important part of the "package" once you reach a certain level.
Why wait until your first final when your knees are quaking, its better to prepare for that feeling so you can handle it better.
Even if you only play for the bill its MUCH better then playing for nothing, but you still need hours by yourself to practise other areas of your game.
Also you can't relate coaching to playing for money, they both improve two completely different areas of your game. Coaching will improve your skills/knowledge/mechanaics or whatever you want to focus on BUT it can't improve your pressure resilience and this is an important part of the "package" once you reach a certain level.
Why wait until your first final when your knees are quaking, its better to prepare for that feeling so you can handle it better.
Even if you only play for the bill its MUCH better then playing for nothing, but you still need hours by yourself to practise other areas of your game.
Qjunkie said:
QJ,
I agree with your premise; but I'm not sure it counts as gambling if you get "stakehorsed" (is that a word??...if not it should be).
Williebetmore said:
That would all depend on your relationship with your stakehorse. If he might beat the crap out of you for losing his money, I'd say it could be quite effective.
Qjunkie said:
That isn't an accurate restatement of Smashmouth's idea. If player 2 also takes the money he would have lost gambling and spends it on lessons, then it is a test of his theory.
Jude Rosenstock said:
JR,
Tap, tap, tap. I stand corrected.