Some comments above in red.
Hope this discussion is illuminating for some who are interested in seeing where physics knowledge can intersect with their own shot implementation.
Colin
Gearing English Compensation - Thoughts & Questions
- Thread starter Colin Colenso
- Start date
Some comments above in red.
Hope this discussion is illuminating for some who are interested in seeing where physics knowledge can intersect with their own shot implementation.
Colin
Rick,
I think it's almost universal for beginers, intermediate and even most quite advanced players to align thick, to undercut, intuitively.
I played in league tonight. The average playing time for the players would be 20+ years. 90% of the misses were thick undercuts I'd estimate.
I suspect any system which promoted a touch of overcutting, as TOI does, will improve most player's consistency in potting for the kind of cut shots we most frequently take on.
Such systems won't work so well for those who have learned to align thinner, intuitively, on such shots.
Colin
That's what I thought.
Personally, I prefer using the same bridge length on every shot, unless I'm forced to do otherwise. Also, with my LD shaft, with a long natural pivot length, I use a fairly long bridge length. I would not be able to stroke comfortably if I used a bridge length much longer than this. I prefer using BHE, FHE, and combinations of the two (and/or just aiming intuitively based on my experience with BHE/FHE) to accomplish the same thing as you (but without having to vary the bridge length).
I agree that follow and draw should not affect the 40% rule, neglecting squirt/swerve effects and drag effects; however, these important effects cannot practically be neglected.
As you probably know, I prefer doing everything relative to the LOC ghost-ball position, because that's the "golden standard" on which most aiming principles and "systems" are based. Although, I can see how some players might better relate to your medium-speed follow-shot slight-overcut reference.
Regards,
Dave
Colin,
I agree. I think there are multiple reasons why beginners & some intermediates shade to the undercut side. There is CIT & ghost ball/contact point misunderstandings, etc.
One may intuitively develop the use of outside english initially to negate the CIT. Then when one starts to put too much english on for that purpose & starts to miss on the over cut side, they intuitively learn that they can throw the ball with the spin & can actually 'aim' to miss the pocket & throw it in just past the thick hit pocket point.
I know you have studied & used BHE which I don't use for the purpose of the benefit of the cue pivot point.
This had me thinking earlier about whether or not you think you have a feel for the spin throw or do you just play for it in a more mechanical manner.
The reason I ask is that in humid New Orleans the change in humidity can effect the throw if the balls are not completely squeaky clean. One day the throw is rather minimal while later that same day it can be rather significant & even be considered too much at times. That & the change in the cloth & swerve makes using a system or method rather useless from my point of view. IMO, one just has to 'feel' that stuff & make subconscious or maybe a bit of conscious adaptations.
Best 2 Ya & Bottoms Up or is it Cheers,
Rick
Is 40% measured the same way when not on the CB's equator - i.e., 40% from center to edge on the higher "latitude"? Wouldn't that impart less side spin?
pj
chgo
The 40% is always measured relative to the equator, regardless of the latitude of the hit. Obviously, the maximum amount of sidespin that can be applied is less at latitudes farther away from the equator. Therefore, "gearing outside english" for larger cut angles will not be possible at all latitudes (even with the help of the drag effect).
I hope that makes sense,
Dave
Hi Dave,
I'm not a stickler for pure BHE usage, It's unavoidable to not use FHE and intuitive adjustments at times. In recent times I've been playing mostly on 7 x 3.5 foot English 8 ball tables and so I rarely have to use a pivot point more than 2 inches longer than the natural/pure pivot point. On a US 9' table and even more so, on an 12' snooker table, longer effective pivot points often come into play, and as such, adapting FHE compensations are a reasonable way to deal with long shot situations.
Also, we are sometimes forced to adapt certain bridge lengths, so we have to be flexible with english compensation at various bridge lengths. An understanding of BHE pivot points can assist as a guide in such situations, hence it ought to be a part of all player's knowledge I think, even if they don't use pure aim and pivot BHE.
Ok, I'm buying this, just wanted to throw it out there for deeper inspection.
I love to get aspects of the game down to pure and true physical principles too Dave, but I also know that the best potters in the world don't rely on such things as much more than philosophical understanding, if they understand them at all.
As few shots actually follow the LOC throw angle and all shots with english require adjustments for squirt and swerve, and also throw in most instances, I tend to think of the LOC point on the OB as an intellectual golden reference rather than a goal as an alignment or contact point.
Cheers,
Colin
Well stated. I agree, unless one is using gearing outside english to result in no throw, in which case the LOC reference is useful both in a practical sense and an intellectual sense.
Regards,
Dave
Indeed, it's very useful in those senses. As an awareness of gearing english or aligning slightly thinner than LOC has value in various situations.
I've noticed most of the top snooker players are swiping to the outside on 5 to 30 degree cuts when within 3 feet of the OB. The less adept seem more stringent with pure straight cueing on such shots. I think that adds weight to the idea that stringent adhesion to linearity of stroking or pure CCB hitting is questionable.
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My observations of BHE so far
Colin,
I am staying fairly busy with other things besides pool due to it being spring but awhile back I was playing around with BHE and the way that I walked away from BHE, FHE was that FHE was infinitely easier to apply.
I assume that FHE is a sideways adjustment of the cue tip while the back end of the cue remains on a line centered to the middle of the cue ball "please straighten me out if I have it wrong."
Performing the sideways adjustment after getting into position for the shot threw me out of alignment and made me feel uncomfortable and unsure of my shot.
As a young player I instinctively swiped English on the cue ball and things worked out.
So what I did as a older player as an adaptation to the FHE method was approach the shot with the cue already off to the side....making sure I was using the correct bridge length for the cue I was playing with.
This to me works great and I have switched back and forth from 15in Pro Taper 12.80mm maple to 12 in Taper 13mm maple to LD's of different types applying FHE mostly this way. Just making sure that the proper bridge length was being used.
Absolutely as one strokes the shot harder there will need to be a slight allowance made but this seemed to be understandable and there is a limit to the distance of easy use it seems that does extend in time. The amount of allowance made for FHE I would say is very comparable to the amounts one would make with an LD shaft , even with 13mm maple.
As FHE is in the family of adjustments as BHE, I found that the BHE adjustment was easiest for me to apply in the beginning at shorter distances and worked just fine.
I found it easier to use Parallel English and make Parallel English allowance at distances beyond 3 and one half diamonds of cue ball / object ball separation.
I have not returned to using BHE on shots beyond 2 to 2 and 1/2 diamonds as of yet but will revisit that of course.
What I found that BHE was like walking upon a wire, yes it will work and at times but why tempt fate when you can cinch the shot easier using another method?
Colin,
I am staying fairly busy with other things besides pool due to it being spring but awhile back I was playing around with BHE and the way that I walked away from BHE, FHE was that FHE was infinitely easier to apply.
I assume that FHE is a sideways adjustment of the cue tip while the back end of the cue remains on a line centered to the middle of the cue ball "please straighten me out if I have it wrong."
Performing the sideways adjustment after getting into position for the shot threw me out of alignment and made me feel uncomfortable and unsure of my shot.
As a young player I instinctively swiped English on the cue ball and things worked out.
So what I did as a older player as an adaptation to the FHE method was approach the shot with the cue already off to the side....making sure I was using the correct bridge length for the cue I was playing with.
This to me works great and I have switched back and forth from 15in Pro Taper 12.80mm maple to 12 in Taper 13mm maple to LD's of different types applying FHE mostly this way. Just making sure that the proper bridge length was being used.
Absolutely as one strokes the shot harder there will need to be a slight allowance made but this seemed to be understandable and there is a limit to the distance of easy use it seems that does extend in time. The amount of allowance made for FHE I would say is very comparable to the amounts one would make with an LD shaft , even with 13mm maple.
As FHE is in the family of adjustments as BHE, I found that the BHE adjustment was easiest for me to apply in the beginning at shorter distances and worked just fine.
I found it easier to use Parallel English and make Parallel English allowance at distances beyond 3 and one half diamonds of cue ball / object ball separation.
I have not returned to using BHE on shots beyond 2 to 2 and 1/2 diamonds as of yet but will revisit that of course.
What I found that BHE was like walking upon a wire, yes it will work and at times but why tempt fate when you can cinch the shot easier using another method?
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I always thought that 'low' english 'took' better (a comment by Grady Matthews, I think) than sidespin applied at the equator suggesting to me that more english can be applied w/ less offset if one is hitting below the equator.
GoldenFlash
Banned
I saw an old video once by an instructor, Don Feeney.
In the video, he stated that by slightly elevating the butt end of the cue, you could really cut down on the throw at contact. Just using a "follow" type stroke.
I messed around with it some, it seemed to work pretty darn good, and then I kinda' left it alone.
What is your opinion of this idea?
Thanks in advance.
Flash
That is correct. With a drag shot, the effect of sidespin is intensified. The most drag (and largest increase in effective sidespin) can occur with backspin shots (especially if most or all of the backspin wears off on the way to the OB or cushion).
Regards,
Dave
Adding butt elevation can have numerous possible effects (see the cue elevation effects resource page for more info); however, I don't think it can have any direct effect on throw. He was probably thinking about the net outcome of the shot, and not throw specifically. Adding cue elevation will definitely increase shot swerve, which could result in less (or even negative) net CB deflection. For an outside-english shot, this would result in a thinner hit, which might make it look like there is less throw (which isn't the case). However, for an inside-english shot, it would result in a thicker hit, which might be interpreted (incorrectly) as more throw.
Therefore, my opinion is that your quote above is probably not the best way to describe what is going on. But if it works for you, it really doesn't matter how it is described (to you).
Regards,
Dave
When discussing throw and gearing outside english, we should probably call it "percentage sidespin" instead.
"Percentage english" can also refer to other types of shots. For example 100% top-right english implies hitting the CB at the miscue limit in the 1:30pm direction, and 50% top-right corresponds to hitting at 1:30pm half way out to the miscue limit.
Catch you later,
Dave
FYI to those interested in this effect, I just added the following to the drag shot resource page:
The ideal tip contact point to get the largest effective sidespin is illustrated in the diagram below from Disc IV of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots (VEPS). It is at the intersection of the miscue-limit circle (black) and the base circle (red) of equal size going through the center and resting point of the CB. The tip isn't as far from the vertical centerline of the CB as it would be at the miscue limit on the horizontal centerline (equator) of the CB, so the initial spin won't be maximum; but the drag action created by the bottom spin increases the effective amount of sidespin due to the slowing of the CB. This tip contact point results in the largest effective sidespin only after all backspin has worn off and the CB has developed full roll. At that point the CB will have more effective sidespin than is possible with any other hit. Shot 501 in VEPS-IV demonstrates the effect at the table.
*writing on my palm*
tip: maximum 4 o'clock - 8 o'clock
speed: full roll
A great example of how "that science stuff" can be invaluable info.
Thanks as always, Dave.
pj
chgo
P.S. The combined stuff on your DVDs could be seen as a fact-based "system" for playing pool. I like the "Encyclopedia" theme... maybe it could use a snappy unifying name too: how about Dr. Dave's Touch of Reality?
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Robin,
I'd put FHE in an entirely different category to BHE.
Yes, FHE is moving the bridge left or right.
When people use FHE, they aren't strict about pivoting from the back hand, because if they did, it would only work for a few shots here and there, depending on their bridge length and the % english they were shooting for. So it's essentially a feel system than shifts the cue at the front and back to guestimate the angle which cancels out the squirt, which will change with the offset. e.g. More offset needs more angle, so it you don't hit the CB where you aim, the CB will take a different path.
BHE is a guessing game too, unless you're familiar with your pivot point and your effective pivot point for different speeds and shot lengths... and some knowledge of the OB throw with different spins will be required for consistent accurate results.
But BHE has 4 huge advantages.
1. It can be applied in a purely systematic way, without guesswork for all shots.
2. The amount of offset (% english) is largely independent (the exception is taking into account OB throw) of the bridge length the system determines. Hence, it's the same bridge length and initial aim for a 1/4 tip pivot as a 1.5 tip pivot.
3. The same bridge position chosen can be used for english on either side, so you can pivot left or right.
4. The pivot is fixed, so you can align exactly as you would for a rolling pot right up until you are ready to pivot and shoot.
I demonstrate in a youtube how I can fix my bridge, take my cue out, wave it around, replace it without looking at the OB again and make the shot with ease, in fact, I could make it with either side, left or right or stun, draw or follow from the exact same bridge position.
So FHE is easier to apply, when one doesn't know the BHE system, but I believe BHE is far more powerful.... though it takes some study and practice. Most who try BHE tend to move their bridge during the pivoting phase as their brains are so used to steering this way. It takes practice to FIX the bridge firmly pre-pivot.
Cheers,
Colin
Bhe
Colin,
Thank you for the reply. So are you telling me that you pre pivot with the correct bridge length for BHE?
I do thaf for FHE and would likely do so again as it seems to make things much easier for me at setup.
Perhaps with the level of comfort that I have with FHE its a good time to revisit BHE.
Colin,
Thank you for the reply. So are you telling me that you pre pivot with the correct bridge length for BHE?
I do thaf for FHE and would likely do so again as it seems to make things much easier for me at setup.
Perhaps with the level of comfort that I have with FHE its a good time to revisit BHE.