Gearing English Compensation - Thoughts & Questions

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Thank you for the reply. So are you telling me that you pre pivot with the correct bridge length for BHE?

I do thaf for FHE and would likely do so again as it seems to make things much easier for me at setup.

Perhaps with the level of comfort that I have with FHE its a good time to revisit BHE.

Not sure what you mean by pre-pivot, but that sounds like the opposite of what I do.

I aim, set bridge, then pivot and shoot. Once my bridge is set, I don't need to look at the OB... though I tend to observe it as a reference for position of the CB. I focus on what I refer to as pre-alignment, that is, making all alignment decisions pre-stroke and pre-pivot.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[336Robin]

Not sure what you mean by pre-pivot, but that sounds like the opposite of what I do.

I aim, set bridge, then pivot and shoot. Once my bridge is set, I don't need to look at the OB... though I tend to observe it as a reference for position of the CB. I focus on what I refer to as pre-alignment, that is, making all alignment decisions pre-stroke and pre-pivot.

Cheers,
Colin

What I am doing now is: I can tell from the shot appraisal how to hit the object ball so when I get into position with my hand on the cloth, that puts me exactly where I need to be without adjustments or further pivots and when I set my hand on the cloth my cue tip is already to the side at my FHE adjustment with the proper bridge length. I merely choose the bridge length before hand and go into the shot that way. Of course micro adjustments might be needed but these would be small.

So far getting myself down and then adjusting or making a pivot hasn't worked for me. I feel not well aligned to the shot to pivot once down.

I have to go in completely setup around what I need to deliver with in order to achieve higher accuracy. The butt of my cue is on center and not off to the side as in BHE.

 

[Colin Colenso]

What I am doing now is: I can tell from the shot appraisal how to hit the object ball so when I get into position with my hand on the cloth, that puts me exactly where I need to be without adjustments or further pivots and when I set my hand on the cloth my cue tip is already to the side at my FHE adjustment with the proper bridge length. I merely choose the bridge length before hand and go into the shot that way. Of course micro adjustments might be needed but these would be small.

So far getting myself down and then adjusting or making a pivot hasn't worked for me. I feel not well aligned to the shot to pivot once down.

I have to go in completely setup around what I need to deliver with in order to achieve higher accuracy. The butt of my cue is on center and not off to the side as in BHE.

Just FYI, and you may understand this already, your bridge length won't matter if you align the way you describe, unless you decide to, or unintentionally pivot to a different offset after that alignment.

If your bridge length happens to coincide pretty much with the effective pivot point for the shot, then any pivoting, intentional or not, will produce little variability upon where the CB contacts the OB.

Colin

 

[336Robin]

Patricks Diagram

Just FYI, and you may understand this already, your bridge length won't matter if you align the way you describe, unless you decide to, or unintentionally pivot to a different offset after that alignment.

If your bridge length happens to coincide pretty much with the effective pivot point for the shot, then any pivoting, intentional or not, will produce little variability upon where the CB contacts the OB.

Colin

Colin,
Patrick posted up a diagram, not sure where it is on a thread that I thought was excellent. In it he mentioned squerve which I think is what I might be doing but I really dont see how making an FHE adjustment is much different although I can tell you it feels infinitely different the way I do it from performing FHE according to the Dr. Dave video. Patrick if you see this post would you please post up that diagram here.

 

[dr_dave]

Colin,
Patrick posted up a diagram, not sure where it is on a thread that I thought was excellent. In it he mentioned squerve which I think is what I might be doing but I really dont see how making an FHE adjustment is much different although I can tell you it feels infinitely different the way I do it from performing FHE according to the Dr. Dave video. Patrick if you see this post would you please post up that diagram here.

Robin,

FYI, PJ's diagram and much more useful info about the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA, "net CB deflection," AKA "squerve") can be found on the squerve resource page.

Here's PJ image:

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

Here's PJ image:

Regards,
Dave

That's a great diagram! I hadn't seen it before.

PJ's Squerve Pivot point is the same as what I've been calling the Effective Pivot Point, though his term is more descriptive.

FWIW: I tend to avoid shots where the Squerve Pivot Point is more than a few inches from my cue's pivot point. It is handy knowledge to have though, and we can get to memorize some Squerve Pivot Distances for some stock shots, and guestimate shots in between when forced to.

Colin

 

[336Robin]

Squerve

Robin,

FYI, PJ's diagram and much more useful info about the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA, "net CB deflection," AKA "squerve") can be found on the squerve resource page.

Here's PJ image:

Regards,
Dave

Dr. Dave,
Thank you for posting this diagram. I've read the information from your link to the resource page. Although I dont perform the FHE adjustment as you depict it in your video. The video has the player set up for the shot and then make the sideways adjustment. I've found that makes me feel misaligned, it could be in the way Im setting up my feet, I'm not sure.

What I've done to combat the uneasiness is to go into the shot using the correct bridge length for the shaft depending on what kind of shaft I'm playing with and" I've played with 13mm, LD and 12.80mm shafts with different tapers."

From first view of this diagram I was unsure whether or not what is pictured here is FHE and not something else due to the degree of sideways adjustment.

What is pictured here is what I've been doing. As the verbage on the resource page would suggest I am cutting in some amazing steep angle shots with Outside English by aiming down the edge of the ball that will address the Object Ball. Some of these shots at a fairly long distance. As pictured in the text the adjustment for a rolling cue ball is really not all that much. I am sure that if I were to practice these shots I would be much better than I am with them.

I understand that the effects of squirt and swerve together are called "squerve."

My question is: With the butt end of the cue as pictured centered on a line that passed through the cue ball with the tip to the side considered FHE?

Thank you in advance,

Robin

 

[dr_dave]

My question is: With the butt end of the cue as pictured centered on a line that passed through the cue ball with the tip to the side considered FHE?

Based on the diagram, to use pure FHE, you would first align the cue center-ball along the desired shot line, with your grip at the squerve pivot point. Then you would shift your bridge hand sideways (while keeping your grip hand fixed at the squerve pivot point) to place the tip for the desired amount of sidespin. Then you would stroke straight along this new alignment. This will correctly compensate for squirt and swerve and send the CB in the desired shot-line direction.

To use pure BHE, you would first align the cue center-ball along the desired shot line, with your bridge at the squerve pivot point. Then you would shift your grip hand sideways (while keeping the bridge position fixed at the squerve pivot point) to pivot the cue to the desired amount of sidespin. Then you would stroke straight along this new alignment. This will correctly compensate for squirt and swerve and send the CB in the desired shot-line direction. An alternative to a pre-stroke BHE pivot is to use a swoop stroke (with the pivot occurring during the stroke), which would still send the CB in the same direction (unless the swoop motion is really exaggerated).

For this particular shot, with the effective pivot point ("squerve pivot point") as diagrammed, it might not be easy to do either of these. That's where a combination of BHE and FHE becomes useful, as demonstrated in the video and article on the BHE/FHE resource page.

An alternative to these approaches is to do what most pros and top players do: Just place the cue along the necessary direction, away from the desired shot line, to intuitively compensate for squirt and swerve, guided by countless hours of practice and successful experience, and then stroke straight to send the CB in the desired shot-line direction.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

to use pure FHE...
To use pure BHE...
a combination of BHE and FHE...

You can also combine BHE and a parallel shift, using the ratio of your bridge length to your cue's pivot length to determine how much of each.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

From first view of this diagram I was unsure whether or not what is pictured here is FHE and not something else due to the degree of sideways adjustment.

With the butt end of the cue as pictured centered on a line that passed through the cue ball with the tip to the side considered FHE?

For a given tip/CB contact point and speed, only one stick position/angle will compensate correctly for squirt. No matter what method you use to adjust for squirt - BHE, FHE, "parallel", any combination or just doing it entirely by feel - the outcome must be the same or you'll miss the shot.

In other words, the diagram shows the resulting adjustment, not the method that got you there.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

Based on the diagram, to use pure FHE, you would first align the cue center-ball along the desired shot line, with your grip at the squerve pivot point. Then you would shift your bridge hand sideways (while keeping your grip hand fixed at the squerve pivot point) to place the tip for the desired amount of sidespin. Then you would stroke straight along this new alignment. This will correctly compensate for squirt and swerve and send the CB in the desired shot-line direction.
_______________________________________________________________-

Yes these are the more exact directions for performing FHE and I understand them and believe that FHE is what I am doing because I use the correct bridge length and keep the butt of my cue on the line to the center of the object ball. The only piece that I do not do according to your directions is to setup then pivot. I have my cue at the pivot point before hand and get down with the cue pivoted at the correct bridge lenth. My justification for doing otherwise is my body alignment does not feel right if you do according to your directions. Perhaps were I to focus more on the contact point and the equal opposite application to it of the cue ball then I wouldn't feel so clumsy while pivoting. The uncomfortable feeling associated with the pivot is why I apply it first.

I think perhaps I come from the same school of learning as Tom Ross in that I grew up using swoop as best as I could apply and learn and playing with my cue splayed to the side of the center of the cue ball in order to play English without so much allowances being involved. I can play this way and make it work but found that at about 2 diamonds of cue/object ball distance you really need to make a slight parallel adjustment to one side or the other when swooping/swiping the English on.

Again Patrick put up a nice diagram showing the point to points for the use of cancelling the effects of squirt and swerve. I immediately saw that and thought it a very useful tool. If that tools works I would like to add that in order to accurately judge the distance one only has to look at the cue they hold in their hands. Placing the tip on the cloth beside the cue ball the lacquer line on most shafts in at or around the 2 diamond distance mark. From there you can find the landmarks on you cue that denote diamonds 3, 4 and the cue is 4.5 diamonds in length.

So to stay on point with the directions for cancelling squirt and swerve one only need to remember the diagram of Patricks and accurately be able to judge the distance by cue stick point estimation. Small aberrations in distance calculations would not make a significant impact until approaching the half way point or beyond. Then you can use the allowance for the next diamond and back up a bit.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To use pure BHE, you would first align the cue center-ball along the desired shot line, with your bridge at the squerve pivot point. Then you would shift your grip hand sideways (while keeping the bridge position fixed at the squerve pivot point) to pivot the cue to the desired amount of sidespin. Then you would stroke straight along this new alignment. This will correctly compensate for squirt and swerve and send the CB in the desired shot-line direction. An alternative to a pre-stroke BHE pivot is to use a swoop stroke (with the pivot occurring during the stroke), which would still send the CB in the same direction (unless the swoop motion is really exaggerated).

For this particular shot, with the effective pivot point ("squerve pivot point") as diagrammed, it might not be easy to do either of these. That's where a combination of BHE and FHE becomes useful, as demonstrated in the video and article on the BHE/FHE resource page.

An alternative to these approaches is to do what most pros and top players do: Just place the cue along the necessary direction, away from the desired shot line, to intuitively compensate for squirt and swerve, guided by countless hours of practice and successful experience, and then stroke straight to send the CB in the desired shot-line direction.
-------------------------------

I agree in this case a parallel adjustment here is easier to accomplish

Regards,
Dave

At this point I am going to surmise that what I am doing is FHE, it certainly works like the descriptions of what FHE is and does. I was wondering it if might be combination of BHE and FHE as I have been using it successfully a great deal. I know its very easy to move from FHE to BHE in this way with the pre pivoted cue at the correct bridge length.

I don't have nearly the accuracy with BHE as one should at 3 to 4 diamonds of distance cueball/object ball separation so I would play parallel English most likely or use the combination method and a small allowance which is not hard to apply but does take some use to figure out what to do.

 

[dr_dave]

You can also combine BHE and a parallel shift, using the ratio of your bridge length to your cue's pivot length to determine how much of each.

pj
chgo

Sure. I'm sure we could also list several other possible combinations.

Or we could just do what the pros do ... put in so many hours of practice and experience so that you learn to compensate for everything naturally and intuitively (although, even the pros make mistakes at times when attempting to compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, especially with shots they haven't experienced enough to develop solid and complete intuition).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...we could just do what the pros do ... put in so many hours of practice and experience so that you learn to compensate for everything naturally and intuitively

That's how I do it.

pj <- like a pro
chgo

 

[336Robin]

Adjustments

You can also combine BHE and a parallel shift, using the ratio of your bridge length to your cue's pivot length to determine how much of each.

pj
chgo

Thanks Patrick,
I have surmised as much through use but having a visual reminder of it is pretty nice. As I have told you before the example you did depicting the squirt per diamond distance allowance was great, would you please add that to this thread? Its nothing short of awesome.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks Patrick,
I have surmised as much through use but having a visual reminder of it is pretty nice. As I have told you before the example you did depicting the squirt per diamond distance allowance was great, would you please add that to this thread? Its nothing short of awesome.

FYI, that diagram (and others), along with lots of related useful info, can be found on the cue natural pivot length resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Or we could just do what the pros do ... put in so many hours of practice and experience so that you learn to compensate for everything naturally and intuitively (although, even the pros make mistakes at times when attempting to compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, especially with shots they haven't experienced enough to develop solid and complete intuition).

That's how I do it.

pj <- like a pro
chgo

I still find BHE, FHE, and BHE/FHE combo useful, especially on certain types of shots, but I'm also trying to work toward being able to find the required line of the cue intuitively, based on experience and judgement. I probably have another 2,000-3,000 hours to go to get there. Although, I very much like being able to aim a shot very carefully first with center-ball alignment (already adjusted for throw with the appropriate ghost-ball target) before compensating for the squirt and swerve expected for the amount of sidespin planned. I might continue to do this, even after I develop solid and complete aim-compensation intuition.

Regards,
Dave (not yet a pro)

 

[336Robin]

Awesome Diagram

FYI, that diagram (and others), along with lots of related useful info, can be found on the cue natural pivot length resource page.

Regards,
Dave

Awesome diagram, lots here to focus on at least its a nice template to use for determining the right ball park and learning your way from there. Thanks.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thanks Patrick,
I have surmised as much through use but having a visual reminder of it is pretty nice. As I have told you before the example you did depicting the squirt per diamond distance allowance was great, would you please add that to this thread? Its nothing short of awesome.

Thanks, Robin.

To be clear, the diagram illustrates that the amount of pure squirt = tip offset x # of pivot distances, not necessarily x # of diamonds. I chose an example pivot length of 12.5" for the diagram just so I could use the diamonds for visual measurement.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

That being the case

Thanks, Robin.

To be clear, the diagram illustrates that the amount of pure squirt = tip offset x # of pivot distances, not necessarily x # of diamonds. I chose an example pivot length of 12.5" for the diagram just so I could use the diamonds for visual measurement.

pj
chgo

If I have this right:

That brings up some interesting issues and would make you have to move your proposed contact point and line up point with some sort of parallel adjustment based on cue elevation and slower speed to actually have the cue ball deliver correctly. Which I can see that because I tend to have more trouble with this type of adjustment beginning at 2 and a half diamonds of cueball/object ball distance separation

Assuming of course that the firm stroke is required to keep the squerve from taking effect over a longer distance. Any elevation would really compound the problem.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the amount of pure squirt = tip offset x # of pivot distances

336Robin:
That brings up some interesting issues and would make you have to move your proposed contact point and line up point with some sort of parallel adjustment based on cue elevation and slower speed to actually have the cue ball deliver correctly.

Yes, the diagram shows "pure" squirt unaffected by swerve. Although it gets most of the blame for making pool hard, squirt is really a pretty tame variable by itself. It behaves in a regular way that could be readily visualized and learned, if not for squirt's evil twin, swerve. Swerve is the real problem.

pj
chgo