Ginacue resolution page 1

Barbara said:
Hm, maybe Scott had the police come and make a report of the cue's presence so it wouldn't "disappear"?

Hm...

Barbara

Or an alternate scenario - WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE - is that the original police report was done in case the cue ever "reappeared". To collect insurance a police report has to be filed. Another question, if you collect insurance on an item and then later recover the item, are you required to reimburse the insurance company?

John

P.S. the intials "S.LEE" engraved into the butt does not prove that "Scott Lee" ever owned that cue. Lee is probably one of the most common surnames in this country. Now, if the original police report had the cue described with the engraved name then that is certainly compelling.

P.P.S. - Not everyone handles themselves properly in all situations. Sometimes emotions run high for a various of reasons and motivations and otherwise nice people look and act like assholes. I am sure most of you will agree.
 
onepocketchump said:
You can't buy a five thousand dollar car without the title so why should you be able to purchase a cue without knowing the clear ownership? In fact, if we were required to transact with titles of ownership then it would cut down on theft and fencing, both willfull and ignorant. Something so simple as an internet database of ownership - like carfax.

John

So you're stating that a $750 cue that is new today should have a $25 "DMV-style" fee for every time it's sold to maintain clear title and our taxes should be used to maintain the record forever. Carfax gets data from tax payer supported systems.

In 25 years, the cue might be worth $5,000. Without such a system, if the possessor of the cue can't trace the title back to the cue maker, what's he suppose to do ?? Burn it !?!?!

Society has decided that a DMV-style system is needed for motorized vehicles. $3,000 stereos and high-end pool cues have to get by on serial numbers (and many cues don't even have that).
 
Williebetmore said:
Fred,
We wholeheartedly agree. No one should be allowed to express an opinion on the internet;.

Great. You've reduced into a ridiculous strawman, and equated it to genocide. How tasteful.

Fred
 
GeraldG said:
That's exactly right. It is not right for the victim of a theft to have to buy his property back and that is not the way it usually works. Normally if you are found in possession of stolen property, you forfeit the property and all money you invested in it and the property is returned to it's rightful owner.

Just to play devil's advocate, can the person return the stolen property in the condition that he procured it without penalty? Like taking off the wrap, finish, and then busting it until unplayable?

Fred <~~~ just wondering
 
Fred Agnir said:
Just to play devil's advocate, can the person return the stolen property in the condition that he procured it without penalty? Like taking off the wrap, finish, and then busting it until unplayable?

Fred <~~~ just wondering

Great question Fred, now how many Lawyers would it take, at how many Dollars an Hour to get an Answer ALL Parties Involved would agree upon... ;)
 
Fred Agnir said:
Great. You've reduced into a ridiculous strawman, and equated it to genocide. How tasteful.

Fred

Fred,
I didn't intend it to be tasteful; I intended it to be funny (like your original assertion that posters on internet forums should not express their opinions without direct knowledge). Whoever posted the original screed evidently was inviting discussion. I think the main purpose of these forums is the sharing of opinions - we don't have to like people with uninformed, or poorly thought out opinions; but it is certainly their right to do so, and this is certainly the place.

Having said all that, you were very correct that the majority of opinions expressed probably are USELESS since these people weren't involved; but they certainly bring up some interesting points about stolen merchandise - I found it all (including your input) very interesting.
 
Williebetmore said:
Having said all that, you were very correct that the majority of opinions expressed probably are USELESS since these people weren't involved; but they certainly bring up some interesting points about stolen merchandise - I found it all (including your input) very interesting.

Fair enough.

Regards,

Fred Agnir
 
Also, I guess I didn't address the Holocaust issue - it is a serious issue, even in today's world. I always enjoy "reductio ad absurdum" humor - its my right. Anyone (not you Fred) offended by such humor needs to do something about currently existing genocidal leaders and forget anonymous internet jokers.
 
Gabber said:
"

The cue was in a 'glass case', obviously an item of interest and value. How many people do you think saw that cue before SL did?
Plus the fact that the cue was in the BD!!!!

David Blaine couldnt make that cue disappear!

Gabber


Tell that to Santos Sambajon or liljohn. Things have a way of disappearing
 
Fred Agnir said:
Just to play devil's advocate, can the person return the stolen property in the condition that he procured it without penalty? Like taking off the wrap, finish, and then busting it until unplayable?

Fred <~~~ just wondering

Well now....that's IS a tough question....but I think the answer is no. Here's what I think:

Buying and receiving stolen property is a crime, if intent can be shown. If intent cannot be shown, then it's not a crime, but the person who bought or received the stolen property would forfeit any investment in that property and it is returned to it's rightful owner. (once again, Let the buyer beware) In cases where intent is not evident, then that determination is based on whether a reasonable person would have suspected that the cue may have been stolen (for the purpose of civil proceedings). Under the law, you have some responsibility to take reasonable precautions. You can't just say "Well, as long as I don't know it's stolen, it's OK." You may not be arrested and charged with a crime, but chances are you'll lose your investment. Once the buyer finds out that the property is, in fact stolen, and that it actually rightfully belongs to someone else, then if he destroys that property he would be subject to being charged with criminal destruction of property. He would have knowingly destroyed another person's property. In that case he may not have knowingly committed a crime by buying the stolen cue, but he sure did if he decided to subsequently destroy it.

I understand that in this case Mark invested money into putting the cue back into playable condition. That does not give him a right to "undo" that if that action would deface or destroy the property. If he put "accessories" on the property that could be removed without affecting the property's condition, that would probably be OK. Once you make a permanent addition, alteration or improvement to the property then it becomes part and parcel to the property and, like the property itself becomes property of the rightful owner.

Since his purchase of the cue was technically an unlawful purchase (purchasing stolen property) he has no protection under the law. The rightful owner of the property DOES have protection under the law. If Mark could show that he purchased the cue in good faith and that the person he acquired the cue from had knowledge that it was stolen property, then he may have some recourse against that person. However, I suspect that the problem here is going to be one of elapsed time.


If the cue truly did belong to Scott and it truly was stolen, then Scott is entitled to his cue back in it's present condition and he really has no obligation to pay anything. It's unfortunate for Mark, but life isn't always exactly fair.
 
zeeder said:
My understanding is that Ernie offered to take it off but Mark left it on.

yes but ernie told him it was originaly made for ed kelly a legend.
 
Seems to me it is a matter of argument, is the cue just property? A collectable?...or art?

From what I can gather, there are statutes of limitations on property that was stolen, but it ranges from 1 year to 6, depending on the state ( we're talking 13 years.)

There appears to be limitations that apply to "art" that differ from regular property. Barring "discovery", meaning it was just now "found"...the statute of limitations would be just begining.

So, are cues functional collectable items?...tools of a trade? Art?.......or what?

Looks like the definition has as much to do with the answere as any of it.
 
Fred Agnir said:
Just to play devil's advocate, can the person return the stolen property in the condition that he procured it without penalty? Like taking off the wrap, finish, and then busting it until unplayable?

Fred <~~~ just wondering

Here's an even better way: Bad mouth the cue and it's legal owner on the internet, call it a Frankenstein, and instead diminish it's resale value in the small world of cue collecting. Instead of defending his position, maybe that's what Mark's post is really all about.

Chris
 
While reading everyones posts I think I have to side with Fred here. No one has a clue. To Bruin, this initial post was in response to the lambasting Mark took on the Billiards Digest board, if anyone should have a beef with "muted allegations" its Mark. If anyone bothered to read the other threads you would see why.

Next we are not bad mouthing the new owner, we presented facts as to what happened. There are two, or three, sides to every story, and if you want the other side read the other thread. If Marks intent was to lower the resale value of the cue would he have included the fact Ernie said it could be a cue he made for Ed Kelley? Who would even think of a reason like that? One other thing.. "Frankenstein cue" was coined by Martyne in her article.

One post from other thread

Initial thread

Joe (----RIF kids.. RIF
 
Last edited:
Sorry Joe Van, but this morning I had a good conversation with another person that makes me post the last on this matter.

Two things were bought up on this boards, the story and the truth. There are of us who know the story, and there's the ones who know the truth.

Barbara
 
Regulator1956 said:
So you're stating that a $750 cue that is new today should have a $25 "DMV-style" fee for every time it's sold to maintain clear title and our taxes should be used to maintain the record forever. Carfax gets data from tax payer supported systems.

In 25 years, the cue might be worth $5,000. Without such a system, if the possessor of the cue can't trace the title back to the cue maker, what's he suppose to do ?? Burn it !?!?!

Society has decided that a DMV-style system is needed for motorized vehicles. $3,000 stereos and high-end pool cues have to get by on serial numbers (and many cues don't even have that).

I really have no idea. I guess that whoever owns something of value has the responsibility to protect it as best they can. I suppose that if they don't make it unique and have no way to really prove ownership then it is the same as a blank cashier's check.

So, it's basically buyer beware and owner be prepared for the worst.

John
 
Barbara said:
Sorry Joe Van, but this morning I had a good conversation with another person that makes me post the last on this matter.

Two things were bought up on this boards, the story and the truth. There are of us who know the story, and there's the ones who know the truth.

Barbara

Well, as a wise person once told me, every story has three sides. My side, her side, and what really happend. We all know how the first two sides of the "story" can be skewed by perceptions and prejudices.

John
 
TATE said:
Here's an even better way: Bad mouth the cue and it's legal owner on the internet, call it a Frankenstein, and instead diminish it's resale value in the small world of cue collecting. Instead of defending his position, maybe that's what Mark's post is really all about.

Chris

Now wait a second. I will tell you a couple of things that I needn't, but your post needs to be squashed. I was in the room when that cue came back from Ernie over a year ago. This was a year before the Valley Forge incident. We all discussed the "S.Lee" name, and the Sang Lee speculation (and confirmation that it wasn't). Then there was a write up about its restoration in Billiards Digest.

So, all of this story is the same consistent story long before the Scott Lee incident. If the story is meant to "diminish the resale," why is it the same story that was told previously? Wouldn't you think that Mark was trying to "increase" the value? The same story can't do both.

I can't believe all this speculation. Bad mouthing on the interenet the legal owner? This was Mark's first post about it, though there have been dozens of posts from other people taking multitudes of undeserved pot shot at Mark.

Fred <~~~ and no, I don't work for Mark, nor am I his lackey
 
Barbara said:
Sorry Joe Van, but this morning I had a good conversation with another person that makes me post the last on this matter.

Two things were bought up on this boards, the story and the truth. There are of us who know the story, and there's the ones who know the truth.

Barbara

Barbara, there were many things that happened in this story, and I don't recall you were standing there. And I assume you weren't at the court hearings, either. Everything you're speculating is 3rd or 4th party, from someone who is having a current issue with one of the parties. Right or wrong, that makes his side biased.

Fred
 
Fred Agnir said:
Barbara, there were many things that happened in this story, and I don't recall you were standing there. And I assume you weren't at the court hearings, either. Everything you're speculating is 3rd or 4th party, from someone who is having a current issue with one of the parties. Right or wrong, that makes his side biased.

Fred

DING, DING, DING.....ladies and gentleman.....we have a winner.

Case and point.....nothing more needs to be said on this matter.

Fred, great posts.
 
Back
Top