Gold Crown 3 Problem

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. Glen, from nose to laminate, 2 inches. There is some contour there, so thats not an exact number. Sighting down the rails, no obvious flaws I can see....I only see variance by using the gauge.

I will try to get a shot of the baseframe. For the record, the rails were ordered brand new from brunswick as part of the deal. They did look new at the time, not a scratch on them. I will also get a playfield measurement.
 
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:thumbup: Wow.......I read every post on this thread, there was no whining, complaining, no negative stuff. It was a pleasure to see everybody come together with good info and work to get a common goal. Great thread from start to almost finish I think. Waiting to see what causes the ball hop now?
Rep to all you guys for good solid advice.:smile:
 
tucson9ball said:
:thumbup: Wow.......I read every post on this thread, there was no whining, complaining, no negative stuff. It was a pleasure to see everybody come together with good info and work to get a common goal. Great thread from start to almost finish I think. Waiting to see what causes the ball hop now?
Rep to all you guys for good solid advice.:smile:
Click to expand...

Thanks Tuscon. Yes, I am very lucky to have found this site.

The table measures up better than it did before the new rubber, but still not exactly 50 X 100. Measuring the short way, from the closest diamond to the short rail...I get 49 15/16ths. The opposite side is almost the same, but closer to 49 7/8ths. The long way, I get 99 15/16ths consistently.

Here is a shot of the table underside:


tableunderside.jpg


I also took a shot of some masking tape on the table, to show where the rails sit low. The upper left rail is the only one that seems ok. You cant see the rail with the scoring insert, but it also has a small bad area.


Fulltableb.jpg
 
Did you talk with Blatt again?

It's apparent they need to adjust the rails to get to 50x100 and determine why you have various
low spots in cushion nose height which could be caused by improper installation of the cushions.
Note that nose height does have some tolerance and does not need to be exactly 1 7/16.

Also check with Glen on the braces he used on GC frame ends.
 
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Bambu said:
Sorry to bump this post again. But guys.... no ideas whatsoever?
Click to expand...

Adjustments to the playing surface can be made using the pocket castings, but make sure all the corner pockets have the same openings;) as far as the ball hopp goes, if these were new rails, and by where you've placed the tape, I'd say that maybe the cloth is pulled to tight there which is pulling down the nose height of the cushions at them spots. If you have an extra piece of cloth, lay it down on the playing surface of the slate in front of the low spots in the cushions, take a ball and push it into the nose of the cushion in a back and forth motion using the ball to lift up and massage the nose of the cushion to help relax the cloth pulling the nose of the cushion down, keep the ball on the playing surface while you're doing this. Doing this will cause the cushion rubber to slide up under the cloth, therefor moving it back up to the height it needs to be to stop the ball hopp. I can't tell by your pictures, but is the nose of the cushions dimpled by the cloth to the point that you can see the dimples in the nose of the cushions? If it is, you may have to use a wet rag to massage the cloth on the cushions to get it to loosen up a bit before you rub it out with a ball.

Glen
 
table

If you feel the top of the rail, Is the rubber level to the the rail in all the spots? Maybe they glued the rubber higher in spots. Buy some Artemis Intercontinental k-66. This is a k-55 profile. Not to confuse you. This is the best rubber you will find and you will never have a problem again. This is my opinion.
Thanks, Ron:thumbup:
 
LCCS said:
If you feel the top of the rail, Is the rubber level to the the rail in all the spots? Maybe they glued the rubber higher in spots. Buy some Artemis Intercontinental k-66. This is a k-55 profile. Not to confuse you. This is the best rubber you will find and you will never have a problem again. This is my opinion.
Thanks, Ron:thumbup:
Click to expand...
Anybody else having a WTF moment?

Ron, didya read the thread? :banghead::slap::thud:
 
Just for argument sake can you post nose height measurements from the good and "bad" spots.
Use a ruler or tape measure.
 
Rep you all

I'm in the process of picking up a used GCIII and was planning on having a local mechanic put on new rail cushions and cloth when it is reassembled. I gleaned a lot on this thread. Thanks to all.:thumbup:
 
Black-Balled said:
Anybody else having a WTF moment?

Ron, didya read the thread? :banghead::slap::thud:
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Ya i read the post. It said he used Brunswick Super speed. If you were a mechanic. You would know that Brunswick had a problem with there rubber. They did not have the correct amount of additives in some of them and this became a problem. It is people like you that open there mouth and do not know what they are talking about. This is a forum to help. Stick with it.
Ron
 
LCCS said:
If you feel the top of the rail, Is the rubber level to the the rail in all the spots? Maybe they glued the rubber higher in spots. Buy some Artemis Intercontinental k-66. This is a k-55 profile. Not to confuse you. This is the best rubber you will find and you will never have a problem again. This is my opinion.
Thanks, Ron:thumbup:
Click to expand...

High cushions don't cause ball hop.
The problems go beyond the type of cushions used.
 
Guys, thanks for all the help and input. I will try to answer all the questions. Glen, thats an interesting thought. I will try to massage the low spots as you suggested. I didnt notice any dimples in the nose, but I will double check that as well.

Dartman, I know this sounds silly, but why is the area of the playfield so important? I am more interested in the ball hop and low spots because I get a different bounce in these areas. The rail gauge I got doesnt have measurements, just a groove to feel the nose. In most low spots its only 1/16th or so low, but at worst its nearly 1/8th. I marked the low areas where they only began to sag, and where they got straight again. I'm not sure about the braces, but maybe Glen can explain that to me.

At this moment, I am about to cry. I am going to have to get this guy Steve R. at Blatt a nice Christmas present. He is ready to do the whole job over again. But, I just want to figure out what the problem is. The last thing I want is for this job to have to be done for a 4th time. I am really not the customer from hell, I just want a decent, even bounce. I have been looking for one for so long, I can taste it.

To complicate things a little more, I noticed a little piece of wood on the slate when they came to take the rails away for the new rubber. At the time I didnt know if it was a shim or not, but the lowest/worst part of the rubber is where this alleged shim was. In the picture, this would be the upper right rail(its about a diamond long from the side pocket). Assuming this was a shim, does that mean the slate was damaged? At the time, the rails were factory new....so they should have been straight. Any idea on what new slate costs? Maybe I could pay to have them swapped out for a better set, or am I taking things too far? I really dont even know what to ask for, but I am willing to pay for it.

Ron, the glue is a tiny bit thick in a few spots, but it looks and feels even in general. I was in fact generously offered the artemis rubber(again, Blatt has bent over backwards for me through all of this). But, I went with the k-55's. Reason being, I want the same bounce I am going to get at the predator tournament, or anywhere else I might play. I hear the artemis rubber is considerably more lively, so thats not something I want despite the better quality. I also thought the k-55 problem was solved long ago. I was not aware that this is still an issue. This does complicate things, maybe I should think about the german rubber.

Much thanks to everyone, all of your advice is greatly apreciated!
 
Look, if you sight down the nose of the cushions, and you have ball hopp in some areas but not others, and the cushions are mounted flush to the top of the sub-rails, you have to be able to see the low spots in the nose of the cushions by looking straight down the nose. If the cushions are flush to the top of the sub-rails, and there's areas in the cushions that are at the correct height, and areas that are low...causing ball hopp, then the face of the sub-rails had to have been passed over on a table saw. The reason I say this is because if the person using a table saw isn't very careful with this process, then you can have a twisting effect of the rails passing by the saw blade, not to the point that it's removing the top side of the bevel, but in fact the lower side, which would cause the cushions to dip a little in that re-saw area, so that when the cushions are re-glued to the sub-rail, you have dips in the nose of the cushions. Now, correct me if I'm not understanding what is going on here. Was the cushions replaced again on the set of rails you have now, or are we talking about new rails here with factory cushions mounted on them...because I don't understand what's going on here....it's not that hard to find out why a ball hopps off the rails;) The reason I asked you how wide the cushion was from the nose to the formica of the rails is because that would tell me if some of the wood was removed or not from the sub-rails, but would not tell me if only a slight amount of wood was removed, like just enough to clean up the glue, but even in re-sawing the rails to remove the glue could create the problem of cutting to deep at the bottom of the sub-rail creating a change in the bevel of the sub-rail where the cushions mount, giving you that dip in the cushions;)

Glen
 
ball hop

Dartman said:
High cushions don't cause ball hop.
The problems go beyond the type of cushions used.
Click to expand...

Wrong, Rick. It could if you do not have the proper angle, on the rail. I am sure you already know that from all the vendors you deal with. If the rails have been messed with and the rails are cut to low with the wrong bevel. Then the rubber would be low and cause ball hop. So when i say high. It all depend on the way the rails are cut.I know there is something else wrong with the table. I also know how to fix it. The only proper way, is to start all over again and cut new rails for the table. Then install the rubber correctly and cloth it.
The question is, Is it worth the money?
 
By high cushions meaning a nose height of 1 7/16 or higher typically wouldn't cause ball hop.
Unless I misread - I thought OP got a new rail set and if so the subrail bevels should be right.
Regardless - the mans table has issues and I'd agree that taking it down for checks and measures
is probably the best route to go.

With regard to playfield dimensions - if off this will affect proper play on the table so it is important.
Granted the hopping is the more unique problem at present.

Just a thought -
Assuming the slate is level - put a short level on the rail tops and see if they pitch to the low spots on the cushions.
 
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problems

Dartman said:
By high cushions meaning a nose height of 1 7/16 or higher typically wouldn't cause ball hop.
Unless I misread - I thought OP got a new rail set and if so the subrail bevels should be right.
Regardless - the mans table has issues and I'd agree that taking it down for checks and measures
is probably the best route to go.

With regard to playfield dimensions - if off this will affect proper play on the table so it is important.
Granted the hopping is the more unique problem at present.

Just a thought -
Assuming the slate is level - put a short level on the rail tops and see if they pitch to the low spots on the cushions.
Click to expand...
Well at least we all agree, He has problems. I guess i can not help if i am not there. Good Luck
 
Glen, its not that easy for a layman like me to sight down a rail. Its not like its a rifle or a pool cue. The pockets dont allow me to get perfectly eye level with the rubber. Theres nothing out of whack that I can actually see without measuring. The rails were new 8 years ago. I thought the factory would put the rubber on, but I'm not sure who did(since they were slow k-66's). What I have now are k-55's on the same rails, installed by Blatt. And, now they are about to put a 3rd set on. I really would like this to be the last time. Ya think my rails are probably cut wrong by now? I did mention that the nose to laminate measures 2 inches.

Dartman, thanks I understand what you mean about the playfield. I should have figured that out on my own. I dont have a small level, or I would check the rail tops. Does anyone else also think this is not a genuine gold crown 3?

And what about the alleged shim? Is it ok to use a shim between the slate and a rail in general?


realkingcobra said:
Look, if you sight down the nose of the cushions, and you have ball hopp in some areas but not others, and the cushions are mounted flush to the top of the sub-rails, you have to be able to see the low spots in the nose of the cushions by looking straight down the nose. If the cushions are flush to the top of the sub-rails, and there's areas in the cushions that are at the correct height, and areas that are low...causing ball hopp, then the face of the sub-rails had to have been passed over on a table saw. The reason I say this is because if the person using a table saw isn't very careful with this process, then you can have a twisting effect of the rails passing by the saw blade, not to the point that it's removing the top side of the bevel, but in fact the lower side, which would cause the cushions to dip a little in that re-saw area, so that when the cushions are re-glued to the sub-rail, you have dips in the nose of the cushions. Now, correct me if I'm not understanding what is going on here. Was the cushions replaced again on the set of rails you have now, or are we talking about new rails here with factory cushions mounted on them...because I don't understand what's going on here....it's not that hard to find out why a ball hopps off the rails;) The reason I asked you how wide the cushion was from the nose to the formica of the rails is because that would tell me if some of the wood was removed or not from the sub-rails, but would not tell me if only a slight amount of wood was removed, like just enough to clean up the glue, but even in re-sawing the rails to remove the glue could create the problem of cutting to deep at the bottom of the sub-rail creating a change in the bevel of the sub-rail where the cushions mount, giving you that dip in the cushions;)

Glen
Click to expand...
 
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At this point I am starting to feel like there is no other way, other than to start over as LCCS said. Say I ask for new slate, and new rails for the rubber. How much should I expect to pay for that?
 
table

I would say sell it and buy a new one. A diamond or gold crown. You will be farther a head in the long run. I have a Gold Crown three.4/1/8 subrailed with Artemis. Nice table and i will give you new Simonis cloth. I think Donnie still has one, also. I am sure Glen can get you what you want. Delivered and set up.
Thanks, Ron:thumbup:
 
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