Good News for American Pros

[Flex]

Mark: Maybe you need to re-read my post. I asked a legitimate question. I implied nothing. I even stated that if you are not the same person Mark Janis was talking about, more kudos to you.

I don't know if you read it or not, but I mentioned about a week ago that the leagues should help pay for a pro tour. There, also, my idea got ridiculed by some of the same people praising you now for apparently the same idea.

For a nobody to ask a simple question about something on a public forum, and you to get all upset about it, does raise other questions though. Which are obvious, so I will leave them unsaid. But, apparently, you have talked to M. Janis about this, I hope it was after his posting about his plans. And that you two have come to an amblical solution. The two of you working against each other wouldn't help pool much. The two of you working together just might be what gets pool back on track.

Now you've piqued my interest.

I confess too that when I read Mark Griffin's comment about your question being posed in a public thread and not in a PM, it didn't exactly give me a "warm 'n fuzzy feeling."

Not that Mike Janis exudes "warm 'n fuzzies" either.

Flex

P.S. I mean no disrespect to either Mark Griffin or Mike Janis.

 

[Flex]

From a common sense stand point, following a known, proven business man with nothing but the players best interest at heart that isn't looking to get rich off of them & stiff them while doing so, is a no brainer.

I too was at the meeting, FWIW.

I've never met the man. I hope what you say is true. How can I know that it is true?

Flex

 

[JCIN]

Now you've piqued my interest.

I confess too that when I read Mark Griffin's comment about your question being posed in a public thread and not in a PM, it didn't exactly give me a "warm 'n fuzzy feeling."

Not that Mike Janis exudes "warm 'n fuzzies" either.

Flex

P.S. I mean no disrespect to either Mark Griffin or Mike Janis.

I think Mark was just trying to stop any rumors before they got started. It is not unheard of for false information to turn into gospel over night on the internet.

All it takes is for a well meaning person like Neil to ask an innocent question about a poorly worded and thought out post and the next thing you know 1+1= Banana.

IMO Mike needs to get this clarified one way or another so it can be either moved past or dealt with. I am sure when he finds time he will do just that.

 

[JCIN]

I've never met the man. I hope what you say is true. How can I know that it is true?

Flex

The same way banks make loans, check his track record and history. Ask people that have done business with him. Hell, Google him.

Mark is not asking anyone for anything, there are no pay today get back tomorrow schemes here. He is simply tired of the way things are and is willing to put his dough and his time behind a good idea to change things.

Nobody has to put up any money or sign anything, just wait and give him a chance to put the idea together on paper and then make up your mind whether you think it is a good idea or not. This has all happened very fast, but if he says it is going to happen then based on personal experience I believe that it will.

 

[Flex]

I stand corrected on the dates, my apologies. I'm going to blame it on old age. I didn't have access to a computer when I was in Vegas and when I got back and read the thread that Mr. Janis started, I thought the date was more recent than the 13th.

Aside from Mr. Griffin not having a tarnished reputation, which Mr.Janis said the entity "stealing his idea" had, Mr. Janis also came back on and said that the person had backed out of pursuing their "stolen" business venture. It's quite obvious that Mr. Griffin hasn't backed down and I would assume that if the person Mr. Janis was talking about had decided to once again pursue their endeavor, Mr. Janis more than likely would've become quite vocal again.




This paragraph should be plastered all over the website as a constant reminder. Well said sir.



I think the best way to look at it is that Mr. Griffin feels very strongly about everything that is going on. He's very emotional about this and a lot people use strong words in order to stress how strongly they feel about something.

Mr. Griffin is a nice man and is not walking around cursing at everyone, calling them names, and acting like a dictator. I'm guessing this was either the only time GG11 had seen/heard Mr. Griffin and if not, they certainly don't know him on a personal level outside of a friendly hello passing through the hallway.

Mr. Griffin is passionate enough about the state of the pool world to take on this adventure charitably with no expectations of personal financial gain.

I certainly hope what you say is true. Just wondering how you know he has "no expectations of personal financial gain," not that there is anything wrong with developing "expectations of personal financial gain."

Also, your comments about Mark Griffin being "very emotional" about this plan is of some slight cause for concern...

Flex

 

[JCIN]

I certainly hope what you say is true. Just wondering how you know he has "no expectations of personal financial gain," not that there is anything wrong with developing "expectations of personal financial gain."

Also, your comments about Mark Griffin being "very emotional" about this plan is of some slight cause for concern...

Flex

I think it would be foolish for someone to start something as big as what he proposes if there was no possibility for profit at some point in the future. That is what would make alarm bells ring for me. He is willing to take the risk and put in the seed money to try and start it. At no time did he say this was a charity, which makes me much more optomistic for its success.

If someone did not have an emotional tie to pool then they sure as hell would never get involved in pro pool in America. There sure are no monetary rewards there. I know about that personally. Somethings you do just because you love them and if you work hard enough maybe you can build something that will make a difference.

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Then money goes into a BIG POT for a tourney. The NYC guy is guaranteed NADA!! My suggestion is to make a commision situation.

Currently none of the players are "working" towards anything that gives them a guaranteed prize fund. They all take the risk and spend the grand to go to a tournament where they might get paid. At this point we're all speculating on what the final "requirements" will be for the players from what little the few of us know. Honestly, how can you say that his plan is worse than what the players have right now? No player is ever guaranteed to cash in a tournament, ever. At least with this way they know the prize fund is there.

I certainly hope what you say is true. Just wondering how you know he has "no expectations of personal financial gain," not that there is anything wrong with developing "expectations of personal financial gain."

Also, your comments about Mark Griffin being "very emotional" about this plan is of some slight cause for concern...

Flex

I give up. There really is no use in trying to discuss this on a serious level until Mr. Griffin releases his game plan. At that time, everything will make sense. Yes, Mr. Griffin is going to make money on a new business venture. At the same time, a small percentage of his profits will go towards funding the tour. Yes, he'll still make money but he doesn't have to take some of that money and do this for pro pool, hence the "charitable" comment.

When I say "very emotional, I mean he feels very strongly about the sad state pool is in and about wanting to help it. You're reading way too much into things.

I'm going to take a break and wait for Mr. Griffin to release the rest of his plan. This old man's heart can't keep up with all the different posts and speculations. I've been trying to read & post too much. I think I'm going to have to up my blood pressure medication.

 

[Flex]

. . . - snip - . . .

When I say "very emotional, I mean he feels very strongly about the sad state pool is in and about wanting to help it. You're reading way too much into things.

I'm going to take a break and wait for Mr. Griffin to release the rest of his plan. This old man's heart can't keep up with all the different posts and speculations. I've been trying to read & post too much. I think I'm going to have to up my blood pressure medication.

Perhaps I've fallen victim to reading posts carefully and taking note of adjectives and qualifiers. Usually, saying someone is "emotional" or "very emotional" when assessing business decisions doesn't augur well for that person's chances of success in his endeavor.

Please don't get upset or let these posts harm your health. Just not worth it.

And please don't self medicate -- consult your doctor first before changing prescription medications; it's just too dangerous not to.

Best,

Flex

 

[JAM]

I may be mistaken about your post but I wanted to point out a couple of things: The BCA and the BCALeague are TWO SEPERATE ENTITIES.

Mark owns the BCALeague and while he is a director on the board of the BCA (Billiard Congress of America), in the proposal by Mark Griffin, I saw nothing that referred to the (BCA)Billiard Congress of America so I doubt very seriously if the BCA has anything to do with THE PLAN by Mark Griffin....

Thanks for correcting the gross and ignorant error. This is an American professional pool problem, and as such, it is difficult for those on the outside looking in to understand.

JAM

 

[Blackjack]

Thanks for correcting the gross and ignorant error. This is an American professional pool problem, and as such, it is difficult for those on the outside looking in to understand.

JAM

LOL

I spent a few hours yesterday explaining that confusion to several European players.

The BCA Pool League was purchased by Mark Griffin a few years ago and the BCA no longer as control over it at all.

Recently, Mike Janis has run for the BCA Board, and he has proposed a planned tour through the BCA organizational channels.

The BCA in recent years has concentrated on being more of a trade organization than they have concentrated on being the governing body of pool. Looking at their financial statements, this is a smart move by the BCA - their annual trade show is their big money maker.

Many players/promoters/industry leaders outside the US have all asked me the same question:

If the BCA was not governing professional or amateur pool, why are they representing the USA in the WPA and WCBS organizations? Why not the UPA?

The UPA is a relatively new entity. It was founded less than 10 years ago, and though they had their problems, they made great strides to establish good relationships within the BCA/WPA WCBS system - however they fell under the BCA umbrella - as they were the representing entity for the US.

Mark Griffin is not building another UPA. Mark is utilizing his resources to invest in professional pool, the events they play in, and the players.

Mike Janis is trying to establish a completely different animal from within the BCA organization - which is brave, ballsy, comparable to climbing Mount Everest upside down and blindfolded.

Both men are working hard every day to create something self sustaining and profitable for everybody (including the players). Some people will like Mike Janis' plans - some will think he's pissing into the wind - some will believe what they want - and Mike will even tell you it's not going to happen overnight.

The same thing goes with Mark Griffin's plans.

This is a message to the players.

If you want any of these plans to be successful, get out there and do what you can to promote the game of pool every day. It's as simple as calling your local YMCA, Boy's & Girl's Club, or doing a fund raiser for a local charity, getting positive publicity for our game and promoting professional pool.

Just showing up at events ready to play and win money - that's not working out very well, guys. You have to do more than that. Get up every single day and work your ass off in the name of professional pool. IMO, everybody - every last one of us - should be working as hard as Mike Janis and Mark Griffin.

 

[JoeyA]

Perhaps I've fallen victim to reading posts carefully and taking note of adjectives and qualifiers. Usually, saying someone is "emotional" or "very emotional" when assessing business decisions doesn't augur well for that person's chances of success in his endeavor.

Flex

Flex,
The proper word to use in describing Mark Griffin's feelings about pool is PASSIONATE. He actually cares about pool and yes he cares about pool players.

His reputation is beyong reproach and what I think he needs now is for people to be happy that he has decided to consider this path and simply wait for the plan to be announced. Discussion is a good thing, but THE PLAN is but an embryo and we can ill afford to insinuate anything negative about Mr. Griffin or his motives. After all there is no basis for any negative comments. He has only done good for pool.

We should be in his corner, talking POSITIVELY about his involvement in pool. Mark is passionate and I could just as easily have used the E word to describe his feelings toward pool.

Let's pull in the same direction.

Let's wait for this new exciting plan of Mark's to unfold.

Let's accentuate the positive and encourage others to do the same ESPECIALLY THE PROFESSIONAL POOL PLAYERS.

I believe that the professional pool players would be doing something very smart by posting their support for Mark Griffin here on this forum.

John Schmidt has already stepped up and done his part.

I hope that the other professional players do their part (AND SPEAK UP NOW) as I believe this forum is far more influential than anyone currently believes.

The things that we say and do have a profound affect across the pool world and it is evident as our written words are reported elsewhere and everywhere.

Best Regards,
JoeyA

 

[GG11]

I think the word "tyrant" is far too dramatic. Based on my business and personal dealings with Mark he is one of the most honest, stand up guys in the pool industry.

And that is the big difference between the two of us. You have had experience with him and have dealt with him before, both personally and professionally it seems. I have not. I only can go off of the way he presented himself at the meeting. In truth, I have MORE of an unbiased opinion than anyone given I've never met the man.

However, just like an interview, I'd have to listen to the references and clearly MG has a HUGE following of supporters. I'll try to chalk up my first impression of him as a SOUR Day for him, bad cup of coffee, whatever and be open to his thoughts and ideas. I'm still leery, but I'm not so stubborn that I won't consider my fellow AZers opinions. He's just got to understand that if he talks the way he did at that meeting, he'll rub ALOT of people who don't know him personally, the COMPLETE wrong way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just as interested as the next peson about getting the pool world and it's players in the US back on track. But after many of the failed attempts and disappointed players of the past, I'm just not willing to hop on board the MG train without more of MY OWN personal experience with the guy.

 

[JAM]

And that is the big difference between the two of us. You have had experience with him and have dealt with him before, both personally and professionally it seems. I have not. I only can go off of the way he presented himself at the meeting. In truth, I have MORE of an unbiased opinion than anyone given I've never met the man.

However, just like an interview, I'd have to listen to the references and clearly MG has a HUGE following of supporters. I'll try to chalk up my first impression of him as a SOUR Day for him, bad cup of coffee, whatever and be open to his thoughts and ideas. I'm still leery, but I'm not so stubborn that I won't consider my fellow AZers opinions. He's just got to understand that if he talks the way he did at that meeting, he'll rub ALOT of people who don't know him personally, the COMPLETE wrong way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just as interested as the next peson about getting the pool world and it's players in the US back on track. But after many of the failed attempts and disappointed players of the past, I'm just not willing to hop on board the MG train without more of MY OWN personal experience with the guy.

What does Tony think?

JAM

 

[Tom In Cincy]

It seems that the UPA is taking a 'quiet or NO approach' to this NEWS.

From AZBilliards news front page today

"I will welcome player input, but no entity will tell me what I have to do. We are spending considerable time, and money, on pro player behalf. To protect our investment, and the pros, we will probably have to initiate a new association where player's ideas and concerns can be addressed."

To me 'no entity' means.. the UPA will not represent the players anymore if Mark is going to start this NEW pro org with tours and structure.

 

[GG11]

At the end of the day, what good is the UPA going to be for the players? With Mark's game plan there is no need for the UPA. They'll have x amount of tournaments and guaranteed prize money. That's more than they're getting now.

BTW, I feel this is an important point that needs to be addressed. The players SHOULD have some sort of association that protects them and their interests. Whether you think the UPA did a good job or not, like another poster mentioned, the players are NOT businessmen for the most part and need someone or some association who can protect them and speak for them so they won't get run over by the business world and it's own players and ambitions.

 

[JAM]

BTW, I feel this is an important point that needs to be addressed. The players SHOULD have some sort of association that protects them and their interests. Whether you think the UPA did a good job or not, like another poster mentioned, the players are NOT businessmen for the most part and need someone or some association who can protect them and speak for them so they won't get run over by the business world and it's own players and ambitions.

I am curious to know if your thoughts are shared by Tony Robles. I notice in this article that Tony Robles, one of America's most beloved professional players, is a UPA Representative: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=5209

Would Tony's affilliation with the UPA affect your thoughts on Mark Griffin's prospective endeavor to create an American professional tour?

JAM

 

[GG11]

What does Tony think?

JAM

Tony has a very strong opinion on the subject, but it really isn't my place to state what that opinion is. He should be the one voicing it. He's been through similar situations in the past throughout his career and his concerns are for the welfare of the players and the sport.

Tony has always looked out for the players and the sport first! Before anything or any dollar amount. Not many people can say that.

 

[JAM]

Tony has a very strong opinion on the subject, but it really isn't my place to state what that opinion is. He should be the one voicing it. He's been through similar situations in the past throughout his career and his concerns are for the welfare of the players and the sport.

Thanks for the response, and I think our posts crossed!

I understand Tony's position in this, but I hope he looks at the big picture here. The future of American professional pool is at stake. To date, the UPA has one tire in the sand, after its original founder jumped ship and took his show overseas.

FWIW, I adore Frank Alvarez and admire what he is trying to do for the players.

Thanks again for responding!

JAM

 

[JAM]

...Tony has always looked out for the players and the sport first! Before anything or any dollar amount. Not many people can say that.

I believe that to be true, as the times I have interacted with Tony, he has always impressed me as possessing a lot of work integrity.

My other half -- Mr. Killer Instinct over there on the left in my avatar -- has a stake in professional pool, albeit a small stake. Fortunately, today we enjoy life away from the tournament trail and have put other priorities in life ahead of pool. That may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

I am very careful when I do post my pool political opinions that they mirror my counterpart's. In the end, what I think, my opinions, don't really mean squat. It is the professional players' opinions who should be at the forefront, not forum members who have no dog in this fight.

The future of pool needs a change agent. As it is now, there ain't much new blood jumping into American professional cuesports. SOMEBODY like Mark Griffin who has the wherewithal to make something positive happen is a godsend.

The UPA ship, though it's got a good crew on board, isn't making a lot of progress, piggy-backing on independent promoters' tournaments. I applaud their efforts to protect the interests of American players, but you must admit this last fiasco with nobody getting paid is a black eye.

That said, the BCA organization -- not the league -- is the biggest joke of them all. Their lack of investment in professional pool brings us to where we are today.

Tony Robles is one of the good guys, and I know when all the cards are laid out on the table, he will make the right decision for the benefit of the sport. That is the kind of guy he is. God bless professional pool players around the world.

JAM

 

[GG11]

I am curious to know if your thoughts are shared by Tony Robles. I notice in this article that Tony Robles, one of America's most beloved professional players, is a UPA Representative: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=5209

Would Tony's affilliation with the UPA affect your thoughts on Mark Griffin's prospective endeavor to create an American professional tour?

JAM

I actually went into the meeting on Tony's request that I go having NO PRIOR knowledge MG or THE PLAN. And literally I walked in and within 2 minutes, heard him say, "Pool players are Dumb, You're all Dumb!"

Tony's affiliation with the UPA only gives me more insight into the UPA side of the story as well. Something alot of people don't know and speculate about. But to answer your question directly, I had not even spoken to Frank or the UPA prior to the meeting. It was only after the meeting that Tony introduced me to Frank. A new tour for the players sounds like a great thing and lots of money. But so much of what drives the players is MONEY or more correctly, the POSSIBILITY of money. For me and me ONLY, that's not good enough. MG building a business and a tour using the pros should have some sort of funding going directly back to the players. Even if it's a penny for every dollar a pro brings in. It's a start.

And again, my responses are MY OWN thoughts. Yes, Tony and I discuss all of what goes on in the pool world, but I am my own person with my own thoughts, as is Tony and I don't feel the need to be a voice for him. He's got his own. He'll let everyone know how he feels when he chooses.