Goodbye APA, it's been fun...

[trob]

APA is like every league.. or Everything in life actually lol… there is good and bad. I had a lot of fun in apa playing with friends. Due to my work and the way our vacations run it’s pointless for me to play because I can’t randomly take off for playoffs or to go to Vegas So after a 4 year absence from leagues and an 8 year absence from bca I have bca leagues tonight.
Have any of you played tap? I did for a while and honestly think apa is the better league of the two. At the end of the day leagues are about having a good time with friends but our competitiveness as good players can suck that right out of it.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Sounds like there's more to this story than is being told. Until very recently, nobody could change a team's roster except local league management. So if you were on the team, it had to be with local league management's approval. So there's no such thing as "too late". The only "too late" I know of is after week 4 of Spring Session for WQ-qualified teams. Is that what happened here?

I'm sure there is more to the story, but nothing we were ever told...which is the point, lack of transparency by the apa operator, and national organization. We did everything we could to do it correctly, including being open about my skill level and attempting to bring me in at a fair rating.

So tell me the rest of the story, or admit that the apa had no transparency.

 

[Jack Fate]

I've played in the APA off and on since 1994, and had a really good time over the years, but this year I have come to the realization that this time is over and it's time to get serious about playing pool. So, I am going to contact Mark A. here in the Seattle area and find out what I need to know about the BCA, and go from there. Here's a few observations of the APA and the reason I'm leaving it:

Handicap system-
I think it's a total crock of you know what!
Firstly, has anyone ever seen this system? Does it exist on a spreadsheet or is it some type of software that performs calculations of a players last 15 games, then determine if they should go up or down? Or, is it up to the league operator, based on their potentially inconsistent observations of how a player has played recently. Is it subject to favoritism of one player over another? Or are rating kept static to "help" a team stay under their 23 rule cap for a spell?

From what I have witnessed, a league operator can arbitrarily move a player up or down based on their reputation or recent play, in order to match their SL more closely to "reality" I think this fact speaks volumes in terms of the integrity of the equalizer system. How can it be equal if the system allows judgment calls to be made like this? Where are the checks and balances?

I'm fed up with it if you can't tell, because in my League it seems like we have alot of people who should go up and don't, alot of people who shouldn't go up and do!
Equal(izer) my a$$!
Unfortunately, there are alot of motives for the league (some good, some bad) for it to stay that way.


The people/the players-

Over time & in the past, I've had many different types of people on my teams (I've been captain most years). All of them enjoy playing pool, but they rarely want to practice. Right now, I cant get my team together to practice on their own or in a group no matter what I try. The result is alot of lost games/points that drive me right up the 'friggin wall. Sometimes we get lucky and an un-practiced player beats an opponent, but most of the time they get their ass handed to them, like they should!!
It's this type of lack of dedication to the game that is driving me away. I don't want to play with these types any more, becasue it's dragging me down. Some of you reading this may have good teams that practice alot, well good on ya. Stick with them and practice away, hopefully you'll go far. It's really hard to find people that will play on a league team and dedicate themselves to the game of pool. It goes further than this......

This last fall session I had a great team. Not only did we all get along, but all were dedicated to the game and would practice regularly. We all played really well, holding first place with points to spare for 3/4 of the session. But over the last few matches my 2 went to a 3, some of my 3's became 4's, one 5 became a 6, and before you know it we can only play 1 or 2 combinations of players each night. I could only play if both my 3's should show up and I threw them both. It sucked. Finally, we had a good team, but due to the SL cap, we couldn't play together any more and had to break the team into two teams. Time to start over again....

That's the straw that broke the Camel's back. I have realized that I am never going to be happy in this league, because as soon as you become successful as a team, you have to split it up or add new players and drop old ones. When you change the roster on a great team, the teams performance is going to suffer. When you have to split a team into two, both teams really suffer.

I am hoping that by joining the BCA, I'll be surrounding myself with more people that really care abotu the game. People who practice and will encourage me to practice and play better, as well as exercise a little etiquette around the table for goodness sake!


So, there ya have it folks. There are other reasons why I don't care for the league, but at the risk of posting a topic that's too verbose, I'll pass for now.

I'll be joining the ranks of the BCA as soon as I can, never to play in the APA again after this session is over.

See ya Round!

Interesting perspective, I once considered trying a APA league but would have to drive a hour. I watched some apa matches and had a player explaining the rules & details. Some aspects of this I thought were good ( coaching lower players) as VNEA doesn’t allow. As with anything there are upsides and negatives. The 23 point cap is definitely a problem as you & I & most people here are trying to improve.
I haven’t played league in years, if I desire competition there are tournaments at area bars some weekly and I’m not required to show up for unless I feel like it.
Thanks for the perspective

 

[JessEm]

APA would be a better league if the SL cap was 25. Period.

Touting "the fun of playing with family and friends" is a little dis-ingenious when they know it's short lived. Your "friends & and family" will improve and you will be forced to cut your brother, uncle, neighbor, mom. and/or disband entirely. If a team gets a couple years together they're lucky. Unless they sandbag in order to stay together, but then they're the "lowest of the low" if I'm quoting that right.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

APA would be a better league if the SL cap was 25. Period.

Touting "the fun of playing with family and friends" is a little dis-ingenious when they know it's short lived. Your "friends & and family" will improve and you will be forced to cut your brother, uncle, neighbor, mom. and/or disband entirely. If a team gets a couple years together they're lucky. Unless they sandbag in order to stay together, but then they're the "lowest of the low" if I'm quoting that right.

The skill level limit is not designed to make APA 'better'; it is designed to make APA money.

 

[APA Operator]

I'm sure there is more to the story, but nothing we were ever told...which is the point, lack of transparency by the apa operator, and national organization. We did everything we could to do it correctly, including being open about my skill level and attempting to bring me in at a fair rating.

So tell me the rest of the story, or admit that the apa had no transparency.

I meant the rest of the story on your side. I don't know what happens locally in any APA league but my own. Here's why I asked about qualification in my last reply. If a qualified team adds a player after week 4, that team loses qualification. If a league operator or their staff allowed that to happen (I check with the team to make sure they understand first), it's a mistake on their part, but ultimately it's the team's responsibility (and I understand that the team did try to check). That's all in the Team Manual. Perhaps the LO discovered that the team had lost eligibility when he/she was planning WQ's late in Spring, realized his/her mistake, and contacted APA about it. Our software takes away qualification and in once its lost it can't be changed without APA headquarters getting involved for approval and assistance. At that point, I could see APA allowing it but only if the LO removed you from the team and converted your wins to forfeits. Speaking for myself, I would only go this far for a team if they lost qualification in part due to a mistake on my part. Yes, FOR a team. It's possible the LO was doing everything they could to correct their mistake, and part of that mistake involved "too late", which is the only part that got back to you.

It's also possible that you were removed for some "excessive skill level movement" bylaw, and the movement didn't occur until late in the session. When that happens, usually some competing team will contact the league operator and force their hand. If it's a poorly-written bylaw that says "will forfeit" instead of "may forfeit" (yeah, I know folks here like black and white, but I prefer allowing for discretion in different situations), the LO may have had no choice. I don't know how that translates to "too late", though.

It's also possible that neither of these cases is true. Only the team and the LO would know the real reason, and if the LO isn't transparent about it the team can contact APA (the phone number is plastered all over the place) and find out what happened. They will look into it and reply. If there's anything shady going on they will straighten it out, too. This is another situation where follow-through is the only way to change behavior.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I meant the rest of the story on your side. I don't know what happens locally in any APA league but my own. Here's why I asked about qualification in my last reply. If a qualified team adds a player after week 4, that team loses qualification. If a league operator or their staff allowed that to happen (I check with the team to make sure they understand first), it's a mistake on their part, but ultimately it's the team's responsibility (and I understand that the team did try to check). That's all in the Team Manual. Perhaps the LO discovered that the team had lost eligibility when he/she was planning WQ's late in Spring, realized his/her mistake, and contacted APA about it. Our software takes away qualification and in once its lost it can't be changed without APA headquarters getting involved for approval and assistance. At that point, I could see APA allowing it but only if the LO removed you from the team and converted your wins to forfeits. Speaking for myself, I would only go this far for a team if they lost qualification in part due to a mistake on my part. Yes, FOR a team. It's possible the LO was doing everything they could to correct their mistake, and part of that mistake involved "too late", which is the only part that got back to you.

It's also possible that you were removed for some "excessive skill level movement" bylaw, and the movement didn't occur until late in the session. When that happens, usually some competing team will contact the league operator and force their hand. If it's a poorly-written bylaw that says "will forfeit" instead of "may forfeit" (yeah, I know folks here like black and white, but I prefer allowing for discretion in different situations), the LO may have had no choice. I don't know how that translates to "too late", though.

It's also possible that neither of these cases is true. Only the team and the LO would know the real reason, and if the LO isn't transparent about it the team can contact APA (the phone number is plastered all over the place) and find out what happened. They will look into it and reply. If there's anything shady going on they will straighten it out, too. This is another situation where follow-through is the only way to change behavior.

The national office was contacted. I had no skill level movement. Nobody would tell us anything. We did our due diligence only to have my matches and money forfeited. One hell of a way to run a business.

We tried to follow through and got shut down at every turn. What else were we supposed to do? Were we supposed to take it to court?

This is my only viable action: to warn others about what happened to us.

I'm certain that it all comes down to a POS operator, but the national organization allowed that operator to do this crap by not fixing it.

And I never got my patches, either. I have a gold satin jacket that I bought specifically for the patches and it remains embarrassingly naked.

 

[APA Operator]

APA would be a better league if the SL cap was 25. Period.

Touting "the fun of playing with family and friends" is a little dis-ingenious when they know it's short lived. Your "friends & and family" will improve and you will be forced to cut your brother, uncle, neighbor, mom. and/or disband entirely. If a team gets a couple years together they're lucky. Unless they sandbag in order to stay together, but then they're the "lowest of the low" if I'm quoting that right.

There is a competitor league with a cap of 25, and it's my understanding that they'll start you at one less than your APA level, so effectively the cap is 30. They've been around for a long time. If I were you, I'd find them and join. But don't bother trying to talk an APA 4 or lower into joining them. There's no need for them there. Still, that league can be fun if you fit the demographic. If you enjoy what they have to offer, any league can be fun. But remember, APA doesn't have a corner on the "lowest of the low" market.

Touting "the fun of playing with family and friends", is exactly what I do. It really is the best reason for joining APA. I have families and teams that have been together for over 20 years. Some wouldn't be families were it not for meeting through APA. I have parents whose children are now old enough to join a team with them, children who weren't even born when I started. At one point I had a family that was five generations of APA members (they got a membership for the youngest just to claim five generations). Things like that are special, so to call it dis-ingenious is a little, well, dis-ingenious.

I also have some groups who joined as beginners, all improved, and can no longer play together as a team. They harbor no ill will toward my league, as they understand APA is near the bottom of the ladder in terms of skill and they have other options. They always have, and I made sure they understood that. Not once did I suggest that any one of them break off and form their own team. It was fun watching them learn and grow together, and because they were all interested in improving and not hung up on sticking together in APA, they had fun while they were learning, too.

 

[APA Operator]

The national office was contacted. I had no skill level movement. Nobody would tell us anything. We did our due diligence only to have my matches and money forfeited. One hell of a way to run a business.

We tried to follow through and got shut down at every turn. What else were we supposed to do? Were we supposed to take it to court?

This is my only viable action: to warn others about what happened to us.

I'm certain that it all comes down to a POS operator, but the national organization allowed that operator to do this crap by not fixing it.

And I never got my patches, either. I have a gold satin jacket that I bought specifically for the patches and it remains embarrassingly naked.

LOL I hear you can find the patches on Ebay...

You never answered the question about qualification. Were you the one in touch with APA? What did they actually tell you? They had to tell you SOMETHING. If you weren't the person in contact, I'd question what I was told by whomever was (or claimed to be).

What would you consider "fixing it"?

 

[APA Operator]

Well said...

Just know I'm not anti-APA. One can have an opinion on an aspect but remain indifferent on the whole. I know several people that really enjoy the CPA (APA), and I don't spit bile at them for doing so. I'm fortunate enough that when I did play regular league, I was maxed out, so worrying about how the "equalizer" secret sauce could potentially effect my rating wasn't a concern.

I don't play CPA because of the slap stick entertainment the "equalizer" provides. The league simply isn't built to support strong players.

Apologies. By "you", I was referring to the population in general, not you in particular.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

LOL I hear you can find the patches on Ebay...

You never answered the question about qualification. Were you the one in touch with APA? What did they actually tell you? They had to tell you SOMETHING. If you weren't the person in contact, I'd question what I was told by whomever was (or claimed to be).

What would you consider "fixing it"?

The team had qualified, but there had been an issue with the schedule because of the operator. This led to the confusion about whether I was allowed. He said I was (face-to-face at my second match), them said I wasn't right before the tourney.

Fixing it is impossible. My team me going into the tourney. That affected their play, changed the team dynamic, cost them a player, and took away my coaching.

Plus they kept my money for something that wasn't our fault.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the lo was banging one of the other captains and my team was a big obstacle. This is not a joke, I had met him well before playing in the league and he insisted on backing her against me (it was one of the last time I've played for money). She had no business playing me, so the only logical conclusion was that he was in her pants, or hoping to be.

 

[justadub]

APA is like every league.. or Everything in life actually lol… there is good and bad. I had a lot of fun in apa playing with friends. Due to my work and the way our vacations run it’s pointless for me to play because I can’t randomly take off for playoffs or to go to Vegas So after a 4 year absence from leagues and an 8 year absence from bca I have bca leagues tonight.
Have any of you played tap? I did for a while and honestly think apa is the better league of the two. At the end of the day leagues are about having a good time with friends but our competitiveness as good players can suck that right out of it.

I haven't played TAP, but it runs here, and is doing very well. There are about the same number, give or take a few, playing TAP as APA locally, which is a good thing. Our local room is busy all four weeknights, two nights for TAP and two nights for APA. Then they run tourneys and such on the weekends.

Some players play both, and some only play one or the other. There are many folks that used to play APA that only play TAP now, and that's ok. If they were unhappy with APA, no sense in them sticking around complaining about it and being unhappy. I have heard from more than a few folks that TAP has its own issues, just like APA. Some that played TAP and came back to APA. Complaints about handicapping...just like APA. And just like APA, most of the people playing are having fun. Works out well for everyone here, save for those who just want to complain and be unhappy.

 

[easy-e]

The national office was contacted. I had no skill level movement. Nobody would tell us anything. We did our due diligence only to have my matches and money forfeited. One hell of a way to run a business.

We tried to follow through and got shut down at every turn. What else were we supposed to do? Were we supposed to take it to court?

This is my only viable action: to warn others about what happened to us.

I'm certain that it all comes down to a POS operator, but the national organization allowed that operator to do this crap by not fixing it.

And I never got my patches, either. I have a gold satin jacket that I bought specifically for the patches and it remains embarrassingly naked.

The only way to make a gold satin jacket uglier is to add APA patches. They did you a favor, sir.

 

[APA Operator]

The team had qualified, but there had been an issue with the schedule because of the operator. This led to the confusion about whether I was allowed. He said I was (face-to-face at my second match), them said I wasn't right before the tourney.

Fixing it is impossible. My team me going into the tourney. That affected their play, changed the team dynamic, cost them a player, and took away my coaching.

Plus they kept my money for something that wasn't our fault.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the lo was banging one of the other captains and my team was a big obstacle. This is not a joke, I had met him well before playing in the league and he insisted on backing her against me (it was one of the last time I've played for money). She had no business playing me, so the only logical conclusion was that he was in her pants, or hoping to be.

Now it seems like we're getting somewhere, if getting somewhere without actually being able to do anything about it means anything. Did the team add you in a make-up match for one of the first four weeks that happened after week 5 scoresheets had been printed? I could see a league operator giving you the wrong answer in that situation. Still his mistake, but to restore qualification later does unfortunately mean the matches you played had to be forfeited. At a minimum, you should have received an apology from the LO for giving you the wrong information in the first place, but it does sound like he was trying to (and may have been forced to) correct his earlier mistake. I doubt very seriously that it was intentional because of some sexual thing. But I don't know anything for sure, so take what I have to say with the appropriate amount of salt.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

The only way to make a gold satin jacket uglier is to add APA patches. They did you a favor, sir.

I think you said, 'uglier' when you meant to say, 'classier'.

 

[fuggles]

APA would be a better league if the SL cap was 25. Period.

Touting "the fun of playing with family and friends" is a little dis-ingenious when they know it's short lived. Your "friends & and family" will improve and you will be forced to cut your brother, uncle, neighbor, mom. and/or disband entirely. If a team gets a couple years together they're lucky. Unless they sandbag in order to stay together, but then they're the "lowest of the low" if I'm quoting that right.

Glad to hear you know it all. This was not my experience and I played in the APA for 15 years.

 

[easy-e]

I think you said, 'uglier' when you meant to say, 'classier'.

Everyone knows you need to get a denim jacket for the patches.

 

[JessEm]

Glad to hear you know it all. This was not my experience and I played in the APA for 15 years.

Easy big fella. Never said I know it all. You were lucky. I can only speak from my own experience, and I stand by what I said. I would hard pressed to think of a single team that lasted more than a couple years without a major overhaul to the roster. Around here I've seen it happen with every. single. team. Lost some really good friends out of APA this way. They battled it, on again /off again, but they just got tired of it.

 

[trob]

Easy big fella. Never said I know it all. You were lucky. I can only speak from my own experience, and I stand by what I said. I would hard pressed to think of a single team that lasted more than a couple years without a major overhaul to the roster. Around here I've seen it happen with every. single. team. Lost some really good friends out of APA this way. They battled it, on again /off again, but they just got tired of it.

your 100% correct. That’s the business model. Anyone who thinks other wise is drinking the apa cool aid lol of course they want you to have to go out and bring in new players so that the league grows and they make more money. At the end of the day the apa is a business.

I originally got into apa because I prefer rotation so I played 9 ball. I went from a 7 to a 9 in just over a session and it didn’t take long to realize with the 23 cap it was hard keeping a 9 on the team and making your number. You couldn’t anyone to move up. You had 0 wiggle room. So I moved to apa 8 ball. I enjoyed playing with my wife and brother. It’s cool still being able to be competitive Playing with family who didn’t waste a ridiculous amount of time playing this game like I did lol but I‘ve always said that 9 ball needed to be moved to 25! It made no sense that you max out at 7 in 8 ball and it’s the same 23 rule as 9 ball. My lo’s held the apa line that there wasn’t enough 9’s in apa for it to matter. I think that’s non sense and they want it that low to force you to find more players. I’m not putting them Down for it understand.. it’s good business to help you grow but for the player it’s frustrating.

 

[Tom1234]

I’ve been reading a lot about the APA business model. Keep this in mind; even though I live in a metro area of over a million people, there are only 2 places that can accommodate (and allow) APA. There 2 places are about maxed out on the number of teams they can accommodate. Even if a LO wanted to grow by 5 teams, where would they play? Grow your teams to the max, but at some point you’ll need to make sure your current teams are happy. I’ve quit counting the number of players who have left APA for good.