Gorina as the Official Cloth

[tedkaufman]

This is a product that nobody wants. There is no reason for it other than KT trying to make money by selling cloth.

Gabber

KT is already a billionaire. Do you honestly think he's trying to make money promoting a cloth most players would prefer not to play on? If the idea were to make money, wouldn't he choose a cloth that is most popular (easiest to play on), such as 860?

If you think selling cloth is KT's new profit making scheme , you truly have no clue.

 

[Gabber]

KT is already a billionaire. Says who? Can you prove that? Would a billionare sell peoples e-mail addresses?Do you honestly think he's trying to make money promoting a cloth most players would prefer not to play on? Of course! Why else would he want to use a cloth that nobody wants to play on?If the idea were to make money, wouldn't he choose a cloth that is most popular (easiest to play on), such as 860. Then Simonis would make money, not the IPT.
If you think selling cloth is KT's new profit making scheme , you truly have no clue.

LOL. Simonis doesnt need the IPT. I assume that they always make the best cloth they can, dont you?
The ONLY ones that want nap cloth are KT and the IPT. They are not going to make much money selling the same cloth as everyone else in the industry, they need exclusitivity.
They have already started with the ridiculous price of $50 for a DVD of a match we all know turned out to be a disapointment in terms of excitement and tension.
The IPT could have done a deal with BcN and shown a few matches live but they didnt. They didnt think about we pool fans then , did they? They think they can make more cash on the DVDs and at $50 a throw, I,m not surprised.

Make no doubt about it. The IPT expects the pools fans and pool players to finance the IPT- without having any say in how things are run.

Here is one for you. This year, instead of paying $1000 for IPT membership, KT- out the goodness of his heart- cut that fee to $1. Recently there were 6 Q tourneys for places on the tour ie IPT membership. In one tourney, 46 players put in $92,000 for 2 spots that cost a dollar each! If KT doesnt need the money, why doesnt he pay cash prizes- not gifts - with the rest or half of the money?
This would give more people the chance to play more Qs.

Gabber

 

[onepocketchump]

Earl's also the same guy who said that if the cue ball ends up beneath the spot, after the break, you should automatically lose the game ... and the same guy who walked out on a match because of Corey's soft break ... and the same guy who called the Miz a 400-lb pig during a match with him in Taiwan ... and the same guy who ... LOL. I could keep going, but we all know the stories.

Oh, I know, I know. I am not a big fam of Earl's antics, rude, and rascist remarks. And I know that he appears to be touched by an angel sometimes. Still though, there are a lot of players from before the 90's who will tell you that faster cloth makes the game easier.

I personally think it is sort of a wash. Faster cloth needs more of a deft touch while slower cloth needs more of a reserved punch to achieve the same result. There are players who have never played on slow cloth that will have to learn how. Some of us can do both. Like tennis players who have to play on clay and grass.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

LOL. Simonis doesnt need the IPT. I assume that they always make the best cloth they can, dont you?
The ONLY ones that want nap cloth are KT and the IPT. They are not going to make much money selling the same cloth as everyone else in the industry, they need exclusitivity.
They have already started with the ridiculous price of $50 for a DVD of a match we all know turned out to be a disapointment in terms of excitement and tension.
The IPT could have done a deal with BcN and shown a few matches live but they didnt. They didnt think about we pool fans then , did they? They think they can make more cash on the DVDs and at $50 a throw, I,m not surprised.

Make no doubt about it. The IPT expects the pools fans and pool players to finance the IPT- without having any say in how things are run.

Here is one for you. This year, instead of paying $1000 for IPT membership, KT- out the goodness of his heart- cut that fee to $1. Recently there were 6 Q tourneys for places on the tour ie IPT membership. In one tourney, 46 players put in $92,000 for 2 spots that cost a dollar each! If KT doesnt need the money, why doesnt he pay cash prizes- not gifts - with the rest or half of the money?
This would give more people the chance to play more Qs.

Gabber

Um, I finance Verizon, Time Warner, Capital One, and State Farm without any say in how they run their businesses. I have to play by their rules if I want their product. If you don't want the IPT product, professional matches of 8 ball, then don't buy them. Quite simple actually.

The qualifying tournament parameters were laid out from the very beginning back in August of last year as I recall. The only difference is that when the IPT had ten open spots they promoted extra qualifiers to fill those spots. Again, the players who played did so by choice knowing that the prize is potentially FAR LARGER than any portion of the money paid into any particular qualifier.

Kevin Trudeau expects television revenues, licensing deals, and product sales to finance the IPT. At least this is what he has said many times. I very much doubt after listening to Mike Sigel complain about the lack of money in pool for so long that Kevin expects to finance this venture from within the pool community. That doesn't mean however that he won't take what he can get from the pool community to add to the pot. No difference than right now. APA, BCA, and VNEA players finance their leagues with no say in how they are run. Apparently though they work well enough to continue as the longevity and growth of each attests to.

John

 

[Bill O]

I've spoke to a number of people who are playing on the IPT and none of them had anything good to say about the cloth. Now, I wouldn't suspect they're going to openly critisize the choice of cloth. I don't think I would if I were in their position. Would you?

Pool players, in general, complain about many things, humidity, bad rolls, etc.. You can even say that some, if they found a pile of money, would complain about the denomination mix.

Having said this, how dumb would it be to bite the hand that's feeding you? If you're Good enough to qualify for the IPT you should be SMART enough to spend a good portion of your practice time on tables with the cloth you don't like.

 

[rackmsuckr]

Oh, I know, I know. I am not a big fam of Earl's antics, rude, and rascist remarks. And I know that he appears to be touched by an angel sometimes. Still though, there are a lot of players from before the 90's who will tell you that faster cloth makes the game easier.

I personally think it is sort of a wash. Faster cloth needs more of a deft touch while slower cloth needs more of a reserved punch to achieve the same result. There are players who have never played on slow cloth that will have to learn how. Some of us can do both. Like tennis players who have to play on clay and grass.

John

I agree. I learned on the slow stuff. Can't say my stroke is better than anyone's, however, I could play 8 ball and do little touch shots without worrying the ball was going over and back one rail, lol.

I have REALLY slow cloth on my table now and I don't like it, and the stuff that was at the KOH was too fast. So I hope there is something in the middle. I played a bar table tournament and it was juuuuust right. <Goldilocks> I think it was 860, but not stretched super tight.

But whether fast or slow, we will all have to play on the same conditions and I am sure the better the player, the easier it will be to make the adjustment. I know all the young whippersnappers play on a variety of cloths now anyway as well, so I am sure they will do just fine.

 

[tedkaufman]

LOL. Simonis doesnt need the IPT. I assume that they always make the best cloth they can, dont you?
The ONLY ones that want nap cloth are KT and the IPT. They are not going to make much money selling the same cloth as everyone else in the industry, they need exclusitivity.

They have already started with the ridiculous price of $50 for a DVD of a match we all know turned out to be a disapointment in terms of excitement and tension.
The IPT could have done a deal with BcN and shown a few matches live but they didnt. They didnt think about we pool fans then , did they? They think they can make more cash on the DVDs and at $50 a throw, I,m not surprised.

Make no doubt about it. The IPT expects the pools fans and pool players to finance the IPT- without having any say in how things are run.

Here is one for you. This year, instead of paying $1000 for IPT membership, KT- out the goodness of his heart- cut that fee to $1. Recently there were 6 Q tourneys for places on the tour ie IPT membership. In one tourney, 46 players put in $92,000 for 2 spots that cost a dollar each! If KT doesnt need the money, why doesnt he pay cash prizes- not gifts - with the rest or half of the money?
This would give more people the chance to play more Qs.

Gabber

I'm not privy to KT's bank account, and I doubt you are either. So all either of us has to go on are the financial reports by others. Let's just say he's RICH. So I really doubt he needs the pittance he'd make from selling pool table cloth.

I don't know if Simonis needs the IPT or not. Again, I'm not privy to their finances either. Actually, since that was never in question, I don't know why you brought it up.

Which of the IPT players have you interviewed to determine that the "ONLY" players who want slow cloth are Sigel and KT? I would think that any player who has a superior stroke would want it since it gives him an advantage over players who don't have a great stroke. But, again, I will have to defer to your sources. You seem to have extraordinary insight into corporate finances and the inner thoughts of the full membership of the IPT.

Make no doubt about it. The IPT expects the pools fans and pool players to finance the IPT- without having any say in how things are run.

Are you saying you think KT should let you say how he should run his organization? Sorry, I just drooled on my computer laughing so hard.

As for the prices the IPT charges for its videos, I think that would reflect production costs (which I understand were substantial) and what people are willing to pay for them. Are they worth $50? I don't know. I haven't seen one. But now that I think of it, having a chance to buy a DVD featuring two of the greatest pool players in the history of the game, it doesn't seem so outrageous. But if $50 is too much in your view, don't buy it.

One last point, making money from pool fans such as yourself is a proven loser. KT didn't need a business model to figure that one out. The real money is in producing a successful TV product that can appeal to a viewership beyond avid pool fans.

Lastly, what is your problem with the IPT and KT? Are you upset they didn't invite you to play? I know several IPT players, and I guarantee you they do not share your sentiments.

 

[Gabber]

I'm not privy to KT's bank account, and I doubt you are either. My point exactly! You have absolutely NO IDEA what his plan is or what he's worth.

I don't know if Simonis needs the IPT or not. Again, I'm not privy to their finances either. Actually, since that was never in question, I don't know why you brought it up. Because YOU did. Quote- "If the idea were to make money, wouldn't he choose a cloth that is most popular (easiest to play on), such as 860?


Which of the IPT players have you interviewed to determine that the "ONLY" players who want slow cloth are Sigel and KT? I cant ever remember any pro saying. "what this game needs is a slow cloth". I would think that any player who has a superior stroke would want it since it gives him an advantage over players who don't have a great stroke. Just because you 'think' its so, doesnt mean to say its true. The cloth is a gimmick and the stroke issue is 'spin'. If anyone thinks they have more chance against Eferen on a slow cloth, they are deluding themselves. But, again, I will have to defer to your sources. You seem to have extraordinary insight into corporate finances and the inner thoughts of the full membership of the IPT. Does ANYONE have insight to the IPT finances?



Are you saying you think KT should let you say how he should run his organization? No but a little more openess wouldnt be bad.Sorry, I just drooled on my computer laughing so hard. You may not have noticed but pool players have just invested $500,000 in the IPT.

As for the prices the IPT charges for its videos, I think that would reflect production costs (which I understand were substantial) and what people are willing to pay for them. Are they worth $50? I don't know. I haven't seen one. But now that I think of it, having a chance to buy a DVD featuring two of the greatest pool players in the history of the game, it doesn't seem so outrageous. But if $50 is too much in your view, don't buy it. Dont worry, I wont.

One last point, making money from pool fans such as yourself is a proven loser. KT didn't need a business model to figure that one out. The real money is in producing a successful TV product that can appeal to a viewership beyond avid pool fans.

Lastly, what is your problem with the IPT and KT? Are you upset they didn't invite you to play? I know several IPT players, and I guarantee you they do not share your sentiments.

i,m not surprised, half of the 150 havent won a tournament in years!

There are 150 paying spots for millions of players so the vast majority will never make a dime. In 2 years the IPT will have enough material for 12 TV shows and 100s of matches to sell on DVD for years to come. There will be no reason to continue the tour because he will have got what he wants.
When all the top players are in the top 150 there will also be less incentive for others to try to qualify.
I have no problem with the IPT, why should I. Its you and all the other IPT apologists that take any criticism as an attack instead of a difference of opinion.

Gabber

 

[The PHOENIX]

I have been following this conversation for some time now. I'm not sure if you guys truly undestand the problem with the cloth choice of the IPT.

It's not really a matter of the cloth being slower or faster its more about the cloth being suitable for tournament conditions. The IPT's cloth choice is a horrible representation of professional play. The cloth isn't just slower it plays BAD !

By playing bad I mean that you can't expect accuracy on any shot unless you use excessive power/force and even then when the CB slows down it has a high potential that it will roll-off.

I also noticed that they are charging a ridiculous price for this cloth. Even at the discount offered over the internet it's about 300% over what you could have bought it for 2 months ago.

Just my thoughts.

I should also add that I do not wish any ill thoughts on the IPT. They are doing a tremendous job in promotiong pool to the public. I just don't agree with the choice of cloth used in the events.

 

[jjinfla]

You people are just stuck on stupid.

The cloth is a gimmick. The Sardo rack is a gimmick. The tight pocket Diamond tables are a gimmick. The top 100 remain at the end of the season is a gimmick. The qualifiers are a gimmick. All selected to make the IPT unique from other tours and to draw attention to the IPT.

And, I have to admit that it sure seems to be working. People sure are talking about it. And that is good. It adds publicity to the tour. The more publicity,the more people talk about it, the more TV networks will give it a shot, the more companies will sign up for ad time.

Right now the WPBA is in their 4th day in San Diego and no one seems to care. I have not seen anyone talking about that tour. But I am glad to see that Tracie Hines is still in it - with one loss. To the ever popular Jennifer Baretta.

And yes, fans will bring money to the IPT but nowhere near the amount of money that will come in through TV and the ads associated with TV. So everything is aimed at attracting TV to the IPT. The money from fans and sales will just be icing on the cake for the players.

Do any of you remember when football was played on regular grass? Now it is played on a carpet. Why? Because it is TV friendly. Do you think the players like the carpet? Hell no. It causes more injuries than grass ever did. But the players just play on it because it is in their best interest and they know it.

Jake

 

[Timberly]

IPT apologists that take any criticism as an attack instead of a difference of opinion.

Gabber

You said a mouthful there. Myself & TheOne have been going through this for awhile. We're both all for the IPT working out, we just don't agree with everything about the IPT. Because of this we've been called haters and naysayers of the tour and just plain hateful. Ater awhile you'll get used to it and instead of letting it get you fired up, you'll be able to just let it roll off as if nothing was ever said.

 

[jjinfla]

After awhile you'll get used to it and instead of letting it get you fired up, you'll be able to just let it roll off as if nothing was ever said.

If you have to explain the game then you still do not get it.

In a debate, the one who shouts first and loses his cool, loses.

No one hates you Timberly.

Jake

 

[Gabber]

I have been following this conversation for some time now. I'm not sure if you guys truly undestand the problem with the cloth choice of the IPT.

It's not really a matter of the cloth being slower or faster its more about the cloth being suitable for tournament conditions. The IPT's cloth choice is a horrible representation of professional play. The cloth isn't just slower it plays BAD !

By playing bad I mean that you can't expect accuracy on any shot unless you use excessive power/force and even then when the CB slows down it has a high potential that it will roll-off.

I also noticed that they are charging a ridiculous price for this cloth. Even at the discount offered over the internet it's about 300% over what you could have bought it for 2 months ago.

Just my thoughts.

I should also add that I do not wish any ill thoughts on the IPT. They are doing a tremendous job in promotiong pool to the public. I just don't agree with the choice of cloth used in the events.

Good post and I tend to agree, but this argument/debate isnt about the cloth the properties of the cloth, its about the contention that simonis -ie any no nap fast cloth- makes the game too easy! That somehow having to hit the ball harder and limiting the number of shots that can be played, will lead to the best players rising to the top! IMO, its totall BS and certainly cant be proven.

If the IPT is successful, we are all doomed to play forever on crappy, nappy cloth, in a world where ball-bangers rule.

Gabber

 

[tedkaufman]

Good post and I tend to agree, but this argument/debate isnt about the cloth the properties of the cloth, its about the contention that simonis -ie any no nap fast cloth- makes the game too easy! That somehow having to hit the ball harder and limiting the number of shots that can be played, will lead to the best players rising to the top! IMO, its totall BS and certainly cant be proven.

If the IPT is successful, we are all doomed to play forever on crappy, nappy cloth, in a world where ball-bangers rule.

Gabber

I thought you might be interested in the press release from the IPT which details the statistics Dana has complied and that he used to help select the type of cloth used for the IPT.

"IPT Cloth - Gorina has been selected to manufacturer our tournament cloth to our very unique and specific requirements. There is no cloth in the world currently that is identical to the IPT tournament cloth. This slow nap cloth combined with the tight pockets of the IPT Diamond table, and with no breaking from the side rail, means that it is difficult to make balls on the break. This is the most significant reason this cloth was selected. With fast worsted cloth, even on a table with tight pockets, it is relatively easy to pocket two or three balls on the break. In our testing it was shown that on the same Diamond table, the worsted cloth produced 97 percent of the time at least one ball pocketed. This was compared to only 52 percent of the time a ball was pocketed with the IPT slow nap cloth. On the worsted cloth 65 percent of the time two or more balls were pocketed. This compared to only 22 percent of the time where two or more balls were pocketed with the IPT nap cloth. On the worsted cloth balls were tied up only 18 percent of the time. On the IPT nap cloth balls were tied up 42 percent of the time. In this test, the nap cloth had been broken in for three weeks of solid play; it was not new cloth.

What this means is that breaking and running out on the IPT nap cloth is much more difficult. In order to break and run out on the IPT nap cloth you must possess a very powerful break, knowledge of running patterns, pinpoint cue ball control, and incredible accuracy with a powerful stroke. It has been proven that the harder you hit the cue ball the less accurate the shot becomes. These factors dramatically reduce luck. These conditions will mean that the better player will more consistently win. IPT Tournament Conditions, like the U.S. Open golf conditions, are designed to make luck much less of a factor. To win an IPT Tournament, a player must have tremendous physical and mental stamina, ability to handle pressure, knowledge of running patterns, a high degree of accurate shot making, a powerful stroke, a powerful break, and excellent cue ball control. The winner must possess all of these skills. IPT Champions will not be lucky. They will be true athletes who have the mind, knowledge, skills, and physical fitness to be the best. Available now."

You still think it doesn't matter if they play on slow cloth? Another thing, you said "If the IPT is successful, we are all doomed to play forever on crappy, nappy cloth, in a world where ball-bangers rule."

How in the world would what the IPT uses to play on affect what you, I, or anyone else chooses to play on? I don't know about you, but if I prefer to play on Simonis 860, I will damn sure play on it. Exactly how is the IPT's choice of cloth going to impact what you play on? Or are you saying you should have been chosen by the IPT in the first place to play their tour? I noticed you take great exception to many of the players on that tour. And why again aren't you a member? Of course now, I guess, since they have an open tournament coming up, it won't be long before you qualify and you're playing in IPT events with the other "ball bangers." Right?

 

[nfty9er]

You should have quit while you were ahead

I thought you might be interested in the press release from the IPT which details the statistics Dana has complied and that he used to help select the type of cloth used for the IPT.

"IPT Cloth - Gorina has been selected to manufacturer our tournament cloth to our very unique and specific requirements. There is no cloth in the world currently that is identical to the IPT tournament cloth. This slow nap cloth combined with the tight pockets of the IPT Diamond table, and with no breaking from the side rail, means that it is difficult to make balls on the break. This is the most significant reason this cloth was selected. With fast worsted cloth, even on a table with tight pockets, it is relatively easy to pocket two or three balls on the break. In our testing it was shown that on the same Diamond table, the worsted cloth produced 97 percent of the time at least one ball pocketed. This was compared to only 52 percent of the time a ball was pocketed with the IPT slow nap cloth. On the worsted cloth 65 percent of the time two or more balls were pocketed. This compared to only 22 percent of the time where two or more balls were pocketed with the IPT nap cloth. On the worsted cloth balls were tied up only 18 percent of the time. On the IPT nap cloth balls were tied up 42 percent of the time. In this test, the nap cloth had been broken in for three weeks of solid play; it was not new cloth.

What this means is that breaking and running out on the IPT nap cloth is much more difficult. In order to break and run out on the IPT nap cloth you must possess a very powerful break, knowledge of running patterns, pinpoint cue ball control, and incredible accuracy with a powerful stroke. It has been proven that the harder you hit the cue ball the less accurate the shot becomes. These factors dramatically reduce luck. These conditions will mean that the better player will more consistently win. IPT Tournament Conditions, like the U.S. Open golf conditions, are designed to make luck much less of a factor. To win an IPT Tournament, a player must have tremendous physical and mental stamina, ability to handle pressure, knowledge of running patterns, a high degree of accurate shot making, a powerful stroke, a powerful break, and excellent cue ball control. The winner must possess all of these skills. IPT Champions will not be lucky. They will be true athletes who have the mind, knowledge, skills, and physical fitness to be the best. Available now."

You still think it doesn't matter if they play on slow cloth? Another thing, you said "If the IPT is successful, we are all doomed to play forever on crappy, nappy cloth, in a world where ball-bangers rule."

How in the world would what the IPT uses to play on affect what you, I, or anyone else chooses to play on? I don't know about you, but if I prefer to play on Simonis 860, I will damn sure play on it. Exactly how is the IPT's choice of cloth going to impact what you play on? Or are you saying you should have been chosen by the IPT in the first place to play their tour? I noticed you take great exception to many of the players on that tour. And why again aren't you a member? Of course now, I guess, since they have an open tournament coming up, it won't be long before you qualify and you're playing in IPT events with the other "ball bangers." Right?

In the context of the example if the IPT is successful". All the pool rooms could put in IPT cloth. Don't you think that will affect all of us? DUH!

 

[tedkaufman]

In the context of the example if the IPT is successful". All the pool rooms could put in IPT cloth. Don't you think that will affect all of us? DUH!

Duh, no. Because if I don't like playing on the equipment a pool room offers, I don't go there. Duh!

And if others don't like it, they won't go there either. And then what? Duh ... the room owners will provide equipment people like, or lose business. Duh!

The IPT chooses equipment to make the tables play harder. The thought being, the more difficult the conditions, the more profound the separation of the best players from the field. Pool room owners choose equipment that makes their customers happy. If they don't, the customers go elsewhere. Duh!

 

[jjinfla]

Capone's in Spring Hill, Florida bought two Diamonds that were used in the KOTH. I played on one of them and guess what? They are now covered with Simonis 860.

The room owners are there to make money. They would be foolish to provide equipment for their customers that would chase them away.

Jake

 

[nfty9er]

Maybe because you have a choice

Duh, no. Because if I don't like playing on the equipment a pool room offers, I don't go there. Duh!

And if others don't like it, they won't go there either. And then what? Duh ... the room owners will provide equipment people like, or lose business. Duh!

The IPT chooses equipment to make the tables play harder. The thought being, the more difficult the conditions, the more profound the separation of the best players from the field. Pool room owners choose equipment that makes their customers happy. If they don't, the customers go elsewhere. Duh!

First of all you people, every room in the country is in the minority for catering to players. If the only pool room available to you changes cloth to ipt, are you saying you quit. ha ha ha. Get a clue. Some people cannot go elsewhere, your only responding to what is available to you. 90 percent of the customers paying the money have no clue what cloth they are on. They play on anything. Why in heavens name do most rooms cover their tables with more than one kind? The cheap for the bangers and the expensive for the players. If I decided to change all my tables to nap cloth my business would not suffer, as there is no other game in town and that is how it is in a lot of areas. Now big rooms have the luxury of doing both because they have enough tables but those are far and few between across the nation. So it could happen people, a room owner could force you to play on IPT cloth and if a person has no choice he will play on it. DUH!

 

[nfty9er]

They May Not Have A Choice

Duh, no. Because if I don't like playing on the equipment a pool room offers, I don't go there. Duh!

And if others don't like it, they won't go there either. And then what? Duh ... the room owners will provide equipment people like, or lose business. Duh!

The IPT chooses equipment to make the tables play harder. The thought being, the more difficult the conditions, the more profound the separation of the best players from the field. Pool room owners choose equipment that makes their customers happy. If they don't, the customers go elsewhere. Duh!

DUH!
Get a clue. Most "customers" have no clue about the difference.

 

[tedkaufman]

First of all you people, every room in the country is in the minority for catering to players. If the only pool room available to you changes cloth to ipt, are you saying you quit. ha ha ha. Get a clue. Some people cannot go elsewhere, your only responding to what is available to you. 90 percent of the customers paying the money have no clue what cloth they are on. They play on anything. Why in heavens name do most rooms cover their tables with more than one kind? The cheap for the bangers and the expensive for the players. If I decided to change all my tables to nap cloth my business would not suffer, as there is no other game in town and that is how it is in a lot of areas. Now big rooms have the luxury of doing both because they have enough tables but those are far and few between across the nation. So it could happen people, a room owner could force you to play on IPT cloth and if a person has no choice he will play on it. DUH!

Let me see if I have this straight: You are suggesting that, hypothetically, we have a town where there is only one place to play pool. And that the pool establishment's owner, for some other inexplicable reason, might choose a cloth that is difficult to play on, is only available through select channels, and costs considerably more than other premium cloths. So you are saying, if this bizarre acting room owner chose to install IPT cloth, the town would be forever doomed to play on it. Is that about right?

Just out of curiousity, what percentage of the pool playing population do you think might actually encounter such an unusual place? Also, I wonder, on what planet do you imagine this place existing?