I think he did that, so that there would be a level playing field for the players. That slow cloth, as an example, was quite different than what most, if not all, pool rooms had on their tables.
I tend to agree with that line of logic.
Governing Body/Who;s the man ?
- Thread starter normlook
- Start date
I think he did that, so that there would be a level playing field for the players. That slow cloth, as an example, was quite different than what most, if not all, pool rooms had on their tables.
I tend to agree with that line of logic.
You know anyone else that will take a big risk like that paying out millions to an unknown and untested industry? But Kevin Trudeau did and the pro players playing the events loved it. It takes some giving to get some getting. Kevin gave and he got back.
As for the people looking for a free ride, they didn't offer any support then, what makes them think they can do something now?
If people just supported the IPT and helped it grow it might have lasted, only the players supported the IPT. The older industry members just sat back and didn't nothing, they could have tried to ride high with the big guy but like it is today nobody wants to take a big chance. Everyone's just playing safe.
Kevin never, not one time open the doors for anyone to get involved to even help support his efforts. He was not interested and wanted to do it all himself. Not only did he shun away potential sponsors he also shunned away promoters, tournament directors and billiard room owners. I know of one promoter that Kevin threatened to sue if that promoter held qualifiers for his qualifying events. It doesn't get much more self serving than that.
There is a right way to do things and there is a wrong way to do things. If people don't know about the quality of service KT was about providing, why should he support anyone that is not willing to deliver that same level of quality or better?
Kevin self serving? He paid out to "Hall of Famers" just to show up. Nobody else has spent a fraction of what he spent to elevate the lifestyle of professional pool players.
I totally agree with you, Geno. I'm not exactly sure, though what would have happened if Trudeau would have been able to continue. One thing to keep in mind is that most of the countries in the world are receiving funding from either their olympic committies or directly from ther government for billiards. We don't know exactly how much these countries are getting, but it appears to be pretty substantial in some cases. If Trudeau continued to disregard date conflicts with other continental events, he was sure to have a serious problem on his hands. I don't know how it woud have turned out, but I think it would have torn the billiard world apart. The players may have been forced to choose one or the other, and some may have found themselves disowned by their own country federations. It makes me shudder to think where it could have wound up ----Definitely not in a good place.
Money is money, whoever has the bigger prizes and better quality events deserves the best attendance.
Tap, tap, tap!
Well sure, but you have to be careful about selling out.
It is tough to be careful when you don't have money.
When its out there, its there for the taking, the only person holding back is the person making the decision.
Nobody cares if you sell out anymore, people only care if they get a cut and how big it should be.
What it boils down to when it comes to U.S. pool, Justnum, is there's too many chiefs in the organizational entities and not enough Indians. The players are supposed to dance like monkeys and scramble for crumbs. As long as the organizations and their members keep getting fat, everything is business as usual, with an emphasis on "business."
... and that is what many did not understand at the time.
It's one thing to have somebody shelling out money and buying loyalty, but he was actually screwing everybody in the long term.
I said it then, and I'll say it now - for the sake of the game, the IPT HAD no room to fail. If it did fail, the game of pool would be viewed as a high risk venture and nobody - absolutely nobody - would be interested in sponsoring the game. There was a big risk involved, IMO, too big of a risk.
Here we are almost 5 years after the fact, and there is still no pro tour. We are still in a reconstruction phase - and we are still viewed as a bad investment. Are we?
No we're not. The game of pool was on the receiving end of KT's short-sighted vision.
Kevin did a lot of good things for a lot of people. However, the one glaring error that he made was not consulting the right people to construct, design, and employ an effective business model. Part of that business model should have been to partner with business entities within the industry, as well as establishing a cooperative relationship with the WCBS/WPA/BCA.
The tour failed, because Kevin decided that paying sanctioning fees was a "shakedown". It was not Mafia payouts, the sanctioning money would have been reinvested back into the sport. If Kevin truly wanted to see the game expand and grow into a successful business venture, coming to terms with the existing bodies and paying the sanctioning fees would have been the smart investment.
It would have been an investment in the players.
It would have been an investment in the game.
It would have been an investment in the IPT.
Kevin decided that he would not talk or even consider talking to anybody within the WPA organizational structure. IMO, it was not because of sanctioning fees - it was because Kevin wanted to run his own show. You either took part in his celebration - or - you were branded a "Doom & Gloomer" and blacklisted by KT personally. Kevin wanted to pilot his own ship, and thumbed his nose at and insulted the existing organizations. That was a childish decision and quite possibly his biggest error.
As JAM said, Kevin was fed a bunch of inaccurate information from various sources. Whatever the case, there are a lot of lessons to be learned from that experience, no matter what side you were on. IMO, Kevin had some great ideas, he had a lot good people working for him. What he didn't have was an accurate assessment of the existing organizations, what they did, why they did it, and how he could have utilized them to create a long term vision for his IPT.
Last edited:
Yi
Dave, I'm not sure I think the IPT and/or Kevin Trudeau is at fault here, but I do think the person at the BCA who gave somebody the authority to be the governing body of professional pool, somebody with no track record whatsoever to run something like this, contributed to the problem of the organization representing the male pros. This person jumped ship as soon as the UPA was losing its credibility. Interestingly, though, everything at the BCA is done behind a closed curtain, so we'll never know who it was that gave this person that authority. Maybe a sponsor was an industry member of the BCA who made it happen. Who knows!?
This is where I may differ with your thoughts. I realize you have much more experience than myself in this matter, but if the IPT had been successful, there would have been no need for a WPA or a BCA or any of the other alphabet soup pool organizations. The IPT attracted players from around the world, and the vision/mission was supposed to be all-encompassing as it grew. I don't think Kevin should have paid one red cent to the WPA. What have they done for American pool lately? Anything? I wouldn't know because there is no transparency.
Did you just throw that in there because you wanted to make me feel better about sharing my thoughts, though they differ from yours? Well, it worked. :thumbup2:
Dave, I'm not sure I think the IPT and/or Kevin Trudeau is at fault here, but I do think the person at the BCA who gave somebody the authority to be the governing body of professional pool, somebody with no track record whatsoever to run something like this, contributed to the problem of the organization representing the male pros. This person jumped ship as soon as the UPA was losing its credibility. Interestingly, though, everything at the BCA is done behind a closed curtain, so we'll never know who it was that gave this person that authority. Maybe a sponsor was an industry member of the BCA who made it happen. Who knows!?
Blackjack said:
This is where I may differ with your thoughts. I realize you have much more experience than myself in this matter, but if the IPT had been successful, there would have been no need for a WPA or a BCA or any of the other alphabet soup pool organizations. The IPT attracted players from around the world, and the vision/mission was supposed to be all-encompassing as it grew. I don't think Kevin should have paid one red cent to the WPA. What have they done for American pool lately? Anything? I wouldn't know because there is no transparency.
Blackjack said:
Did you just throw that in there because you wanted to make me feel better about sharing my thoughts, though they differ from yours? Well, it worked. :thumbup2:
Too many unanswered questions for any future in pool.
I can only wish that a new game, new competition format and a venue to make the presentation of the 'new pocket billiards' show will happen during my life time.
so sad.
I can only wish that a new game, new competition format and a venue to make the presentation of the 'new pocket billiards' show will happen during my life time.
so sad.
Well, you sure are getting a lot of mileage out that "alphabet soup tours" comment I rented to you - LOL
The fact is that the existing organizations needed someone like Kevin to come along and assist them. I won't pretend that I know exactly how and why there was a communication breakdown, but that breakdown in communication set the wheels in motion for the failure of the IPT.
In the US and North America, we don't see much effect from the global organizations because we have a wild west mentality when it comes to... as I said in my original post - leadership.
The WPA is non-profit. All Kevin had to do was call the right people with right information, and he would have known that. Nobody was shaking him down.
Here is the organizational breakdown of the WPA - it's member organizations - and its relationship to the IOC.
There are many people that work extremely hard within these organizations. Fran has been involved in the front lines for many years. Jerry Forsyth is on the front lines now, and he is on the Board of Directors.
It is essential that EVERYBODY work together to assist and help empower all of the organizations, to include: the BCA, WPA, and the WCBS.
These organization need everybody's support in order to be successful. I remember the first time I mentioned these organizations, many people never knew that some of them existed.
The EPBF works extremely hard to maintain a constant cooperative relationship with the existing organizations. The players, the organizations, and fans are rewarded for that. They don't have 40 different renegade tours trying to attract money and players in 40 different directions. That is the main difference, and that is why you see very little progress in North America. Unless that changes - and we structure the game as an organized sport, we'll be stuck.
The regional tours - though essential to the players that rely upon them - are small business ventures that provide little profit for the people running them. In many cases, their liabilities far outweigh their assets. If we got our heads out of our asses we could structure North America the same way the EPBF has structured pool in Europe. However, many people are extremely comfortable with where their head is - and they are ready to fight against any mention of change in the current system.
It all comes down to having the proper people in leadership positions. Mark Griffin is headed in the right direction - he needs help - he needs cooperation. There is a lot of work involved in growing something sustainable. We can't just expect the money to come in from another Kevin Trudeau. Without properly going through the growth process that is necessary to gain experience, we'll just be lost while sitting around a lot of money. That's what happened with RJ Reynolds. That's what happened with the IPT. We have to work out butts off to get our chit together. Then we have to position ourselves to have prospective investors recognize that. IMO, it's nothing we can't handle.
Last edited:
Well, you sure are getting a lot of mileage out that "alphabet soup tours" comment I rented to you - LOL
The fact is that the existing organizations needed someone like Kevin to come along and assist them. I won't pretend that I know exactly how and why there was a communication breakdown, but that breakdown in communication set the wheels in motion for the failure of the IPT.
In the US and North America, we don't see much effect from the global organizations because we have a wild west mentality when it comes to... as I said in my original post - leadership.
The WPA is non-profit. All Kevin had to do was call the right people with right information, and he would have known that. Nobody was shaking him down.
Here is the organizational breakdown of the WPA - it's member organizations - and its relationship to the IOC.
There are many people that work extremely hard within these organizations. Fran has been involved in the front lines for many years. Jerry Forsyth is on the front lines now, and he is on the Board of Directors.
It is essential that EVERYBODY work together to assist and help empower all of the organizations, to include: the BCA, WPA, and the WCBS.
These organization need everybody's support in order to be successful. I remember the first time I mentioned these organizations, many people never knew that some of them existed.
The EPBF works extremely hard to maintain a constant cooperative relationship with the existing organizations. The players, the organizations, and fans are rewarded for that. They don't have 40 different renegade tours trying to attract money and players in 40 different directions. That is the main difference, and that is why you see very little progress in North America. Unless that changes - and we structure the game as an organized sport, we'll be stuck.
The regional tours - though essential to the players that rely upon them - are small business ventures that provide little profit for the people running them. In many cases, their liabilities far outweigh their assets. If we got our heads out of our asses we could structure North America the same way the EPBF has structured pool in Europe. However, many people are extremely comfortable with where their head is - and they are ready to fight against any mention of change in the current system.
It all comes down to having the proper people in leadership positions. Mark Griffin is headed in the right direction - he needs help - he needs cooperation. There is a lot of work involved in growing something sustainable. We can't just expect the money to come in from another Kevin Trudeau. Without properly going through the growth process that is necessary to gain experience, we'll just be lost while sitting around a lot of money. That's what happened with RJ Reynolds. That's what happened with the IPT. We have to work out butts off to get our chit together. Then we have to position ourselves to have prospective investors recognize that. IMO, it's nothing we can't handle.
I do agree with much of what you say. Jerry Forsyth is definitely first class all way, and there is no denying that Mark Griffin is the best thing that's happened to pool since the break cue! :grin-square:
I was reading Trudeau's history on Wikipedia and in addition to all the other felonies, this paragraph below is really low-life bottom-feeder type stuff. The guy is one step away from being a thug. And we all thought he may have been misled with bad information? Maybe somebody fed him bad info but I would bet that the guy never had an interest in finding out the truth. By the way, I do believe he did have communication with the WPA. I wasn't on the board at the time but I learned this after I became a board member, and I'm pretty sure it was a conversation and not just emails. He had every opportunity to know the facts. He just wasn't interested.
1990-1991: Larceny and credit card fraudIn 1990, Trudeau posed as a doctor in order to deposit $80,000 in false checks, and in 1991 he pleaded guilty to larceny. That same year, Trudeau faced federal charges of credit card fraud after he stole the names and Social Security numbers[2] of eleven customers of a mega memory product and charged approximately $122,735.68 on their credit cards.[52] He spent two years in federal prison because of this conviction (Choi, 2005)
1990-1991: Larceny and credit card fraudIn 1990, Trudeau posed as a doctor in order to deposit $80,000 in false checks, and in 1991 he pleaded guilty to larceny. That same year, Trudeau faced federal charges of credit card fraud after he stole the names and Social Security numbers[2] of eleven customers of a mega memory product and charged approximately $122,735.68 on their credit cards.[52] He spent two years in federal prison because of this conviction (Choi, 2005)
People change. How long can you hold one bad thing against him?
People that fail at success keep trying. He tried with the IPT but the climate was not favorable to him, because he had a history. That is discrimination.
There are several cases where good people after years of doing the right thing go bad for whatever reason.
Well said. Sometimes people can't see the forest but the trees. It is a shame that there is no transparency in the North American representative organization for pool. Business is done behind closed doors that benefits industry members' pool players, but it's an accepted practice. Since there is no transparency, everybody thinks that is just peachy keen.
What, did you take a roll call from the other thread? Hail, hail, the gang's all here!
Yes, Doug, this thread has been done to death ad nauseum. I respect *you* because you have an open mind. We may have a difference of opinion on various topics, but you give respect to others with their opinions, and that's a very admirable trait. I do respect you a whole bunch. That's why I *and* others always hold you in the highest regard!
