Governing Body/Who;s the man ?

[jalapus logan]

The people that are most affected by this issue are the pro players.

It seem about time they stop letting other people manage tournaments for them and get involved in the business aspects of running a tournament.

But that would require players to talk to each other, and if you've seen the flame wars on this board, that might be what happens when players have to work as a group to produce a tournament class or tour series event.

The best would be an organizer says you guys want to produce the event, fine I will just finance you but you manage all other aspects. The players would actually get to help grow the sport instead of just be "sheeped" into the slaughter house.

The players aren't proactive enough IMO, but most if not all organizers haven't given them the opportunity to play a managerial role. KT gave some influence to pool players but it was more for recruitment of players and room qualifiers than actual business work.

Despite how long they have been in the business, they need to take a chance on trying something new and different. And like they saw KT be prepared for failures.

Other pro sports do not let players into the managerial aspects of the business and leave them in the front end of the camera or for money raising activities.

From what I've seen the billiards players have enough on experience alone to put something together that would be agreeable for players. But they kind of seem only interested in playing a game for someone else. The "I just want to play pool" stereotype. Instead of the "pool is a business and it is in a really bad situation and the things I can do are just support the events that are working because they are the only source of income for what I want to do."

I definitely agree with much of what you say. Far too many relationships in the pool world seem to me to be adversarial in nature. New perspectives and attitudes would help.

If cooperation were a stock listed on the Pool Stock Exchange, I would be shorting the shares hand over fist...

 

[justnum]

I definitely agree with much of what you say. Far too many relationships in the pool world seem to me to be adversarial in nature. New perspectives and attitudes would help.

If cooperation were a stock listed on the Pool Stock Exchange, I would be shorting the shares hand over fist...

I was thinking stock analogies too.

A tournament is like a stock investment, players pay entry fees to help build the tournament promotion and production costs. And everyone hopes tickets sales are huge.

Pool players are shareholders not just players. In other pro sports players do not pay to compete, specifically basketball, baseball, football and soccer. They are paid to compete.

 

[Blackjack]

Be nice to Blackjack, justnum. His heart is truly in the right place, but I can't say that about some of the other IPT bashers.

Don't worry Jennie, his emotional outbursts and insults towards me (or anybody else) won't solve the problems of the pool world.

You and I both understand that there is much that we can salvage from the ashes of these failed tours. There are lessons that have been learned, and we need to move forward in a positive direction. IMO, the lesson to be learned from the IPT is that we need have established leadership to deal with someone that was as passionate as Kevin was about providing for the players.

One thing that I will say, is that Mike Sigel was not the person that fed Kevin the chunk of misinformation. A lot of people assume that, but that is not accurate. Mike felt he was doing the best job he could to give back to the game of pool. He brought Kevin in, and with him big pay days - and KT honored our HOFers admirably. Deno gave his heart and soul to the IPT and worked tirelessly to make that venture succeed. I believe that some of the best decisions made in the IPT format came directly from Deno Andrews - Deno was a superman before during and after each IPT event - planning, coordinating, and keeping up 100+ players and the logistical nightmares that came with each event. I believe that the people that fed Kevin the bad info were people that knew absolutely nothing about the game of pool.

In the end, it was just easy to point fingers at Mike and Deno - and I believe that was an unfair assumption by people.

Since the demise of the IPT, I have some conversations with Deno, and I don't think people understand just how much this affected him personally and professionally. It had to be very difficult for him. I'd work with Deno any day, and I hope he knows that. He is a great organizer, a great communicator, and he is passionate about everything he does. I've also spoke with Mike about certain aspects of the IPT, and my opinion is that Mike had nothing but good intentions for the game, the players, and the fans. Anybody that thinks differently (as I did in the beginning) is way off base.

I hope that clarifies any misunderstandings or assumptions that I "detest" the IPT and everybody involved. I really don't. I have a lot of respect for anybody that tries to do something on such a grand scale - Deno was the glue that held the IPT together (IMO) - and Deno Andrews will always have my respect.

 

[JAM]

Don't worry Jennie, his emotional outbursts and insults towards me (or anybody else) won't solve the problems of the pool world.

You and I both understand that there is much that we can salvage from the ashes of these failed tours. There are lessons that have been learned, and we need to move forward in a positive direction. IMO, the lesson to be learned from the IPT is that we need have established leadership to deal with someone that was as passionate as Kevin was about providing for the players.

One thing that I will say, is that Mike Sigel was not the person that fed Kevin the chunk of misinformation. A lot of people assume that, but that is not accurate. Mike felt he was doing the best job he could to give back to the game of pool. He brought Kevin in, and with him big pay days - and KT honored our HOFers admirably. Deno gave his heart and soul to the IPT and worked tirelessly to make that venture succeed. I believe that some of the best decisions made in the IPT format came directly from Deno Andrews - Deno was a superman before during and after each IPT event - planning, coordinating, and keeping up 100+ players and the logistical nightmares that came with each event. I believe that the people that fed Kevin the bad info were people that knew absolutely nothing about the game of pool.

In the end, it was just easy to point fingers at Mike and Deno - and I believe that was an unfair assumption by people.

Since the demise of the IPT, I have some conversations with Deno, and I don't think people understand just how much this affected him personally and professionally. It had to be very difficult for him. I'd work with Deno any day, and I hope he knows that. He is a great organizer, a great communicator, and he is passionate about everything he does. I've also spoke with Mike about certain aspects of the IPT, and my opinion is that Mike had nothing but good intentions for the game, the players, and the fans. Anybody that thinks differently (as I did in the beginning) is way off base.

I hope that clarifies any misunderstandings or assumptions that I "detest" the IPT and everybody involved. I really don't. I have a lot of respect for anybody that tries to do something on such a grand scale - Deno was the glue that held the IPT together (IMO) - and Deno Andrews will always have my respect.

I couldn't agree more with you on this thought. I have always liked Mike Sigel, even though he can be a little chatterbox sometimes, but Deno Andrews is genuinely one of pool's finest gems, bar none.

Deno is well liked in the McCready household!

 

[JAM]

For some players, it was such a treat to be treated like a king. They all enjoyed feeling like professionals when they competed on the IPT.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Professional Pool Player Tour

Questions;

If the Pros did organize themselves and promote and start their own tour,

Which pro do you think would be the LEAD? or do you think it would be a committee?

Who would be on that committee?

Would the PPPT be limited to only certain Pros? Say the top 32 players? according to who's list?

If the PPPT decides who will and won't play, do you thing they will change their name to the USAPPPT? and limit the tournaments to Americans only? no Asians, Europeans or any other country except the USA?

Who will fund this organization? the players with a membership fees? or sponsors with pockets deep enough to control decisions? or both?

What about the players 33-50? how will they gain entry into this elite club?
Will one of the top 32 have to be eliminated? maybe more?

Players will have to develop a charter and business plan to have a chance of being successful.

What game? what format? will there be referees? who will be their tournament director? how will these decisions be made and what requirements will these positions demand?

Way too many questions for a pool player (IMO). Someone will have to run the org for them. Someone they trust, someone they admire.

There are a ton of questions yet to be addressed. Good promoters usually have the staff that can or will find out answers as needed.

Pros play pool. That is a given. Can they govern themselves?

 

[justnum]

Questions;


Which pro do you think would be the LEAD? or do you think it would be a committee?

Can they govern themselves?

That is some old world thinking. Leaders don't exist anymore. Kevin Trudeau didn't lead, he led in spending. Mike and Deno did all the real work of getting players to believe in a vision.

It is all mission statements and people that fulfill the roles needed to accomplish that mission.

The players can govern themselves. As for the rules regarding under the table gambling, sobriety at events and public intoxication that sounds like something a group of people would need to discuss.

They have been doing that since they started, the question is if they can govern each other.

How would they have dealt with Earl when he got kicked out?
What will they do if prize funding falls short?
What is the punishment for embezzling money or extorting money?
What is the punishment for taking a bribe to cheat for the bookies during a match?

 

[justnum]

For some players, it was such a treat to be treated like a king. They all enjoyed feeling like professionals when they competed on the IPT.

Can those same players keep the vision when no one is spending the money?

 

[jalapus logan]

Questions;

If the Pros did organize themselves and promote and start their own tour,

Which pro do you think would be the LEAD? or do you think it would be a committee?

Who would be on that committee?

Would the PPPT be limited to only certain Pros? Say the top 32 players? according to who's list?

If the PPPT decides who will and won't play, do you thing they will change their name to the USAPPPT? and limit the tournaments to Americans only? no Asians, Europeans or any other country except the USA?

Who will fund this organization? the players with a membership fees? or sponsors with pockets deep enough to control decisions? or both?

What about the players 33-50? how will they gain entry into this elite club?
Will one of the top 32 have to be eliminated? maybe more?

Players will have to develop a charter and business plan to have a chance of being successful.

What game? what format? will there be referees? who will be their tournament director? how will these decisions be made and what requirements will these positions demand?

Way too many questions for a pool player (IMO). Someone will have to run the org for them. Someone they trust, someone they admire.

There are a ton of questions yet to be addressed. Good promoters usually have the staff that can or will find out answers as needed.

Pros play pool. That is a given. Can they govern themselves?

Well, here is how it could work out in reality:

32ish players get together in a room with the intent on "organizing". One player says that we should do x, y & z. Another player disagrees and says we should do a, b & c. The first player says to the second that his assertion does not matter, and that "I can give you the 7 out anyway". They then proceed to woof back and forth about making a game, which will never end up happening anyway, because neither of them will to agree to play at location 1 or 2 and neither has any money to bet anyway.

For that matter, none of the 32ish players in the room has any money to invest into the sport or "organizing" it, and the group then breaks up and goes their separate ways.

Now, here is a a recent attempt at players organizing themselves. Did anything ever become of that? And this happened before the Tony Annigoni debacle and most recent, slow paying US Open 9 ball embarrasment.

 

[jason]

Say what you want about KT, but he put on one hell of a show. I don't think anyone will deny that. The IPT produced the best pool tournaments the world has ever seen in my opinion.

The IPT gave some players the opportunity to for a big fat payday. Short lived or not, I don't think anyone would turn down that gift horse if it happened again today.

Now back to that broken record..."the future of pool"

 

[Wags]

Here I thought this was a thread about who is in a position to govern pool.

Let's learn from the past and take the positive.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=225491

Maybe someone, somewhere, will use the info and make it a reality. It doesn't have to be the biggest or best. It just has to be viable, sustainable and create interest. It doesn't have to be a non-profit. That stuff is only for olympic consideration. The BCA used to have the power but got rid of it when they decided to become a trade organization only. That has certainly left a void.

Leagues are doing a bang-up business and are the life-blood of the industry right now. They must be doing well, why else do we see all these league wanna-bees pop up. There are really only 3 or 4 league systems that can step up and "be the man". They are the APA, BCAPL, VNEA and ACS. Interesting that 2 are for-profit and 2 are non-profit.

It would also be really interesting if there could be a "pool summit" with the CEO's/Directors of those organizations. League owners know that participation numbers are the key to a successful operation. The brain power in that room could plot a course for the direction of the game without injuring the individual entity. That would be good for pool. It would increase participation. Everyone, the leagues, the player (amateurs and pros), the equipment makers, etc., would benefit. I guess it would be a league "trade organization" as opposed to whatever the BCA is now.

Seems pretty unanimous on this forum that CSI/Mark Griffin is the choice. IMO, he is slowly moving in correct direction and making sure it's done right without stepping on too many toes.

I used to care about the Olympic dream and the WPA, but that has been just a pipe-dream. I mean, really, what else is the WPA good for except to try to organize pool enough in hopes of getting accepted into the Olympics. There has been too much time and too much water under the bridge for that to happen. I can't think of anything the WPA does to help American pool.

Would having a cuesport in the Olympics really benefit American pool? I don't think so. The game(s) that would be played are so far removed from the American base of players that they can't understand or care to understand it. Just for fun I asked league players who they thought were the best pool players playing today. Amazing how many Minnesota Fats and Willie Mosconi answers I got. In BCAPL leagues I would ask who the best bar box player is and I would get, SVB. He went through the BCAPL system, was sponsored by them and was probably instrumental in motivating lots of players to achieve a higher standard of play. IMHO, with his style and absolute gentlemanly demeanor, he has impressed many players that in turn brought more players into the game.

I care more about having a viable, stable structure for pool in this country. A bottom to top structure that lets every player know where they stand in the scheme of it all. Every player in every individual league knows where they stand in comparison to the other league players. There are the social players and the "I wanna be the best" players. Both are important to pool success. Both need attention and need to be given a good experience. Both need opportunity for expansion. (Sidenote: I got my "opportunity for expansion" when I played/attended a college show put on by Ed White. Watching him do shots that I couldn't understand, the smooth, effortless way he made balls and how he always seemed to have a easy shot, gave me no choice but to become a good player.)

We are blessed with having four solid organizations in place that are in the position to do just that.

Golf has a handicap and tiered events/tours. League pool has its handicap (by a list or by a rating) and tiered events but no tour. We have more independent and league bar box events than I have ever seen in my life. The base of American pool is doing great. Each of the four systems I mentioned all have their own uniqueness. Having top league people that are involved with the base of American pool and can understand that "what will be good for pool will be good for their respective entities" would absolutely, positively, be the greatest step forward this game has ever seen.

OK, so that's my opinion and I'm going to stick to it until a better one comes along.

 

[vagabond]

Well, here is how it could work out in reality:

32ish players get together in a room with the intent on "organizing". One player says that we should do x, y & z. Another player disagrees and says we should do a, b & c. The first player says to the second that his assertion does not matter, and that "I can give you the 7 out anyway". They then proceed to woof back and forth about making a game, which will never end up happening anyway, because neither of them will to agree to play at location 1 or 2 and neither has any money to bet anyway.

.

Isn`t it the truth!!!!!!
Nothing made of laugh more than this in a long time.

 

[justnum]

Now, here is a a recent attempt at players organizing themselves. Did anything ever become of that? And this happened before the Tony Annigoni debacle and most recent, slow paying US Open 9 ball embarrasment.

The pros should spend the money to get better representation.

I understand that times are tough but the money is usually worth it.

The video link shows they have interest and demand for representation but are going about it the do-it yourself way (the wrong way).

 

[justadub]

Here I thought this was a thread about who is in a position to govern pool.

Let's learn from the past and take the positive.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=225491

Maybe someone, somewhere, will use the info and make it a reality. It doesn't have to be the biggest or best. It just has to be viable, sustainable and create interest. It doesn't have to be a non-profit. That stuff is only for olympic consideration. The BCA used to have the power but got rid of it when they decided to become a trade organization only. That has certainly left a void.

Leagues are doing a bang-up business and are the life-blood of the industry right now. They must be doing well, why else do we see all these league wanna-bees pop up. There are really only 3 or 4 league systems that can step up and "be the man". They are the APA, BCAPL, VNEA and ACS. Interesting that 2 are for-profit and 2 are non-profit.

It would also be really interesting if there could be a "pool summit" with the CEO's/Directors of those organizations. League owners know that participation numbers are the key to a successful operation. The brain power in that room could plot a course for the direction of the game without injuring the individual entity. That would be good for pool. It would increase participation. Everyone, the leagues, the player (amateurs and pros), the equipment makers, etc., would benefit. I guess it would be a league "trade organization" as opposed to whatever the BCA is now.

Seems pretty unanimous on this forum that CSI/Mark Griffin is the choice. IMO, he is slowly moving in correct direction and making sure it's done right without stepping on too many toes.

I used to care about the Olympic dream and the WPA, but that has been just a pipe-dream. I mean, really, what else is the WPA good for except to try to organize pool enough in hopes of getting accepted into the Olympics. There has been too much time and too much water under the bridge for that to happen. I can't think of anything the WPA does to help American pool.

Would having a cuesport in the Olympics really benefit American pool? I don't think so. The game(s) that would be played are so far removed from the American base of players that they can't understand or care to understand it. Just for fun I asked league players who they thought were the best pool players playing today. Amazing how many Minnesota Fats and Willie Mosconi answers I got. In BCAPL leagues I would ask who the best bar box player is and I would get, SVB. He went through the BCAPL system, was sponsored by them and was probably instrumental in motivating lots of players to achieve a higher standard of play. IMHO, with his style and absolute gentlemanly demeanor, he has impressed many players that in turn brought more players into the game.

I care more about having a viable, stable structure for pool in this country. A bottom to top structure that lets every player know where they stand in the scheme of it all. Every player in every individual league knows where they stand in comparison to the other league players. There are the social players and the "I wanna be the best" players. Both are important to pool success. Both need attention and need to be given a good experience. Both need opportunity for expansion. (Sidenote: I got my "opportunity for expansion" when I played/attended a college show put on by Ed White. Watching him do shots that I couldn't understand, the smooth, effortless way he made balls and how he always seemed to have a easy shot, gave me no choice but to become a good player.)

We are blessed with having four solid organizations in place that are in the position to do just that.

Golf has a handicap and tiered events/tours. League pool has its handicap (by a list or by a rating) and tiered events but no tour. We have more independent and league bar box events than I have ever seen in my life. The base of American pool is doing great. Each of the four systems I mentioned all have their own uniqueness. Having top league people that are involved with the base of American pool and can understand that "what will be good for pool will be good for their respective entities" would absolutely, positively, be the greatest step forward this game has ever seen.

OK, so that's my opinion and I'm going to stick to it until a better one comes along.

Spot on! :thumbup:

 

[FranCrimi]

Gosh Jen (may I call you Jen?), I wish you'd put some underpants on that bear in your avatar. Most of the guys are staying within the "boundries" and at the very least have thongs on their women in their avatars. I wouldn't want one of my grandkids coming in and looking over my shoulder and seeing nudity from the waist down

And for justnum (who seems to be perched high atop the Kevin Trudeau bandwagon): Let's not forget that KT has gotten into MORE trouble with the law later than the dates that Fran posted, yea even some post-IPT trouble. He's no saint so there ain't no reason to make him out to be, even if he tried to make pool better. Trying to make pool better shouldn't give ANYONE a free pass!!!

Jen, I hope you realize that I'm J/K about your avatar!!!



Maniac (call me Tony if you'd like)

In hindsight, I think it's pretty obvious that KT's motives were purely for profit. His scheme was for online betting. He just happened to come up against a new law forbidding it in the U.S. so he abandoned pool. As for whether or not he was trying to make pool a better sport, I tend to think he didn't care about that one way or the other.

And you're right, of course, about his additional run-ins with the law. I just pointed out some of the real low points. I think he's just a thug in a suit.

 

[vagabond]

..... I think he's just a thug in a suit.....

Like the ones on wall Street.

 

[vagabond]

..... In other pro sports players do not pay to compete, specifically basketball, baseball, football and soccer. They are paid to compete.

How Ironicle!!!!!!!!!:thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[JAM]

Like the ones on wall Street.

And quite a few of them in pool organizations that change rules willy-nilly to advantage a minute few. All others are left to hang out and dry, while the golden boys aka sponsored players are given benefits and special treatment.

At least Kevin Trueau had players meetings and communicated with the players at every single event. Deno Andrews did everything he could to keep players apprised of what was happening.

They sure don't do that in today's pool organizations. Kevin Trudeau was a godsend to pool. He tried to make something good happen. So what if he wanted to profit from it?! So what if he had problems with the FCC in previous business endeavors? So what if he spent time in jail? I could elaborate on this little factoid right here, but I don't want to put somebody else down to prove a point. Should he have done it for free? Everybody wants to bash Kevin Trudeau and bring up B.S. that has nothing, not one iota to do with the MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars he invested into pool.

What has the WPA and the BCA done lately for American professional players, aside from the industry members' sponsored golden boys?!

 

[vagabond]

And quite a few of them in pool organizations that change rules willy-nilly to advantage a minute few. All others are left to hang out and dry, while the golden boys aka sponsored players are given benefits and special treatment.

At least Kevin Trueau had players meetings and communicated with the players at every single event. Deno Andrews did everything he could to keep players apprised of what was happening.

They sure don't do that in today's pool organizations. Kevin Trudeau was a godsend to pool. He tried to make something good happen. So what if he wanted to profit from it?! So what if he had problems with the FCC in previous business endeavors? So what if he spent time in jail? I could elaborate on this little factoid right here, but I don't want to put somebody else down to prove a point. Should he have done it for free? Everybody wants to bash Kevin Trudeau and bring up B.S. that has nothing, not one iota to do with the MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars he invested into pool.

What has the WPA and the BCA done lately for American professional players, aside from the industry members' sponsored golden boys?!

Just for your info: I am the first one that anounced on AZ billiards about IPT and Mike Segal V L.Jones match before the general public and pool players knew about it. But I did not give too many details.There were many threads on Kevin on AZ Billiards in the past.Till today, I maintained relative neutrality on the issue and never made even a single negative comment on kevin in the past and even today I don`t have any negative comments about his involvement in Pool.The only negative comment I made since IPT was started, was on Deeno Andrews`s suit Jacket length.Eventhough he wears very expensive designer suits ( By Brioni.suits start at 4-5,000 $ ).Because he was a short statured guy, the length of the jacket should be little shorter than what he normally wears.

I am very neutral about the IPT.

Fran crimi is my friend and with my comment I was reminding my friend Fran to not to forget the real thugs of wall street.Peace

 

[JAM]

Just for your info: I am the first one that anounced on AZ billiards about IPT and Mike Segal V L.Jones match before the general public and pool players knew about it. But I did not give too many details.There were many threads on Kevin on AZ Billiards in the past.Till today, I maintained relative neutrality on the issue and never made even a single negative comment on kevin in the past and even today I don`t have any negative comments about his involvement in Pool.The only negative comment I made since IPT was started, was on Deeno Andrews`s suit Jacket length.Eventhough he wears very expensive designer suits ( By Brioni.suits start at 4-5,000 $ ).Because he was a short statured guy, the length of the jacket should be littele shorter than what he normally wears.

I am very neutral about the IPT.

Fran crimi is my friend and with my comment I was reminding my friend Fran to not to forget the real thugs of wall street.Peace

And I compliment your complementary post to the thread. I am glad to see that you can at least understand exactly what time of day it is as it pertains to pool culture. Some refuse to acknowledge what Kevin Trudeau did was a step in the right direction. The platform was flawed from its conception.

I sure as hell didn't see any those BCA Hall of Famers complaining after they pocked $30,000 for just showing up in Orlando in December 2005. They also got byes in the tournament.

What has the BCA done for those Hall of Famers?