Grandsons: Let them win one or beat up on them?

[Russ Chewning]

TAP TAP TAP TAP. Don't force them into the game. And certainly don't destroy them while playing.

My mom is easily the best basketball player I know. I have movies of her scoring 40+ with 15 assists back in college. So I grew up playing a lot of b-ball. Unfortunately, I don't have too many fond memories. All I remember is how miserable I was whenever we played. I probably scored a total of 6 points on her by the time I was 14. What kills someone's self-esteem? How about getting the ball stolen every time you touch it? Every pass picked? Every shot blocked? That would make anyone want to quit. It worked that way with everything. I played her some chess once when I was 6. I remember it clearly. She started with my pawns and worked her way to my bishops before I quit, eyes filled with tears.

If you want them to play pool...LET THEM PLAY. As their grandfather, they already see you as the best pool player in the world. They'll back you against Efren any day of the week. You don't need to impress them. You need to encourage them. Let's face it, pool isn't very fun to watch. Seeing grandpa run out all the time isn't going to make them any better, nor is it going to keep their interest.

Playing pool has it's own rewards. It starts with just making balls, then running balls, and finally running racks. Ask yourself, "What first got me interested?" I'm sure the answer is nowhere near getting beaten senseless by the shooters. That's what kept you motivated after several years of play.

My advice: play them one handed, left handed, eyes closed, etc etc. But don't play them too often. Let them play each other. Sibling rivalry will definitely motivate them. Show them some cool things every so often. It sounds like they're a little too new to the game for drills so stay away from those. Drilling is never as fun as playing. And seriously, get them gambling. Play for that little red car, or a candy bar or someone's turn on the xbox. I made my first bet when I was 4. 16 years later, I'm still doing it.

Edit: I don't play much basketball anymore. But I am the first in the family to pick up a cue, and I'll never quit this game...they don't need help having fun.

You did get what age they are, right? 15 and 12. They are old enough to have developed ego by that age. At that age, I would have LOVED to be playing a great player, as long as they taught me a few things.. I wouldn't have cared if I never won a game in a year. Then again, I got more ego, and desire to win, than 10 men..

Russ

 

[Drew]

You did get what age they are, right? 15 and 12. They are old enough to have developed ego by that age. At that age, I would have LOVED to be playing a great player, as long as they taught me a few things.. I wouldn't have cared if I never won a game in a year. Then again, I got more ego, and desire to win, than 10 men..

Russ

I never said they don't have big egos. I'm sure they do. But they'll feed those egos by playing each other. And how much can you possibly learn by sitting in your chair watching someone else make all the balls?

 

[despotic931]

Prior to pool (now youre all gonna laugh at this, but oh well) my "game" was ping pong. My dad taught me how to play and would whoop me every time, until I actually got good enough to contend with him. I'm glad he never "went easy" on me. I'm fairly good at the game still, but don't play as much as I did a couple years ago.

As far as pool goes, I've only been playing a little over a year, and have never had a "teacher" but there are certain guys who do teach me stuff, and neither one of them ever lets up on me. One of them posts on this board, and played me a race to 25 betting a beer that I wouldn't win a single game (took me about 13 games to win one ) FREE REP TO THE PERSON WHO KNOWS WHO I"M TALKING ABOUT!!! (I mentioned this bet in another post, not hard to find)

Point being, DON'T LET UP ON EM!

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Interesting question. I have a son who isn't old enough to play yet. When he gets older I have thought about this a little. I do not think I will ever dump a game. Pool or golf or whatever. I want him to learn several things from it. First, I want him to learn to focus on the process of getting better and fundamentals, not results. Dumping games can short circuit that and confuse the goal of the activity. This is also a two way street because I want him to see that I don't get all excited about beating him; I want him to see I feel the same way about him whether I can beat him in a certain game. I also never want to fake reality with my kid. I think people teach their kids not to lie without having a philosophical framework to show the danger in dishonesty. Eventually when you fake reality enough, through whatever process, it hurts your ability to reason and hurts your ability to function in the world. Granted winning a pool game is a minor example of this, but I think it is dangerous to give them an incorrect idea. And if they figure it out it will be worse. So why pretend? OTOH, you can show them the nature of real self esteem by praising them for working hard or improving, or whatever. Like tell them, "Hey, much better stroke on that shot" before you beat them.

I also want it so when he does beat me at something, it is a tremendous and satisfying thing for him. It will be for me too. Because the day your kid beats you should be a happier day for you than them. If it isn't, the parent has a lot of growing up to do.

I think a lot of parents, and people in general, have faulty ideas about what competition is and what it should be. They also place undue emphasis on results rather than process. All of us have seen this playing youth sports or pool leagues or whatever. I think both the soft "self esteem" crowd that doesn't even want to keep score and the ridiculous little league/figure skating/cheerleading/etc... parents who emphasize winning at all kinds of costs have it wrong too. The world is a competitive place and people keep score. However, you have to focus on learning and improving and when you do that results tend to take care of themselves. Youth sports are not the time to focus on results. Hell, watching the documentary on John Wooden's teams the other night was fascinating. Here is a guy who coached 10 championship teams at a very competitive level and never mentioned winning or losing. That is how I want to try to be with my kid at whatever activity.

Also, it should go without saying that my "no dumping" policy does not apply to physical things where the kid could get hurt. You don't throw a ball as hard as you can to a kid, or wrestle all out or whatever. But when it doesn't pose a risk to the kid I don't think you need to dump, and in fact can be worse to their self esteem than beating them.

P.S. I have noticed the trend of kids crying when they lose. I went to a wrestling tournament for kids and saw kids consistently crying when they lost. This drove me nuts. Crying for injury or true emotional loss is one thing, but these kids were missing something. I don't remember kids crying just at a loss when I was a kid, not to sound like too much of an old guy. Teach 'em to win or lose with some grace and dignity. Easier said than done I guess.

Very interesting---You are concerned about the physical hurt but not the mental or emotional damage---or did I read that incorrectly?

 

[JimS]

I'm only a B player at best but they've not seen many better than I am... at least not up close so it's a kick for them to watch me run out and I explain everything that goes through my head as I do it.

The older one listens intensly. The younger one is a natural at everything he does and he'll play me two or three games and then go do something else. He hates to lose but everything comes so easily to him that he doesn't show any signs of working to get better... unless he's doing it when I'm not there (They're 200 miles away so I only get there one weekend a month)

The 15 yr old is interested and seems to try to do what I suggest.. i.e. level cue, pay attention to where you are striking the cue ball, follow through etc. The younger one does all that automatically. I don't think either of them is into it enough yet that they are doing the drills I suggested.

I KNOW I'm having a GREAT time being with them, laughing, high-fiveing, talking as we play (great time to talk about alcohol, other drugs, sex, grades) I talk about what it was like for me when I was their age and they are amazed that grandpa was really a kid. I was more thrilled than they were when their parents got the table for them. Trying to talk to them any other time was more like lecturing but just shootin the bull while shooting pool is just that... being guys together. I sure wish I'd had that opportunity with any of the adult males in my life.

I don't think I'll let up on them yet. I still think an honest victory will mean a lot to them. It sure did when they finally beat me in checkers.... but I still prevail in a long race.

 

[Big Perm]

Good question...

IMHO, you need to tank a rare shot every now and then.....maybe miss a leave or two, or just miss a few banks by a hair.....either way, I don't think you should leave them straight on the eight or give away games - just put the odds a little more in their favor, and do whatever it takes to keep them interested and coming back for more....

my two cents...

 

[Scott Lee]

I'm only a B player at best but they've not seen many better than I am... at least not up close so it's a kick for them to watch me run out and I explain everything that goes through my head as I do it.

The older one listens intensly. The younger one is a natural at everything he does and he'll play me two or three games and then go do something else. He hates to lose but everything comes so easily to him that he doesn't show any signs of working to get better... unless he's doing it when I'm not there (They're 200 miles away so I only get there one weekend a month)

The 15 yr old is interested and seems to try to do what I suggest.. i.e. level cue, pay attention to where you are striking the cue ball, follow through etc. The younger one does all that automatically. I don't think either of them is into it enough yet that they are doing the drills I suggested.

I KNOW I'm having a GREAT time being with them, laughing, high-fiveing, talking as we play (great time to talk about alcohol, other drugs, sex, grades) I talk about what it was like for me when I was their age and they are amazed that grandpa was really a kid. I was more thrilled than they were when their parents got the table for them. Trying to talk to them any other time was more like lecturing but just shootin the bull while shooting pool is just that... being guys together. I sure wish I'd had that opportunity with any of the adult males in my life.

I don't think I'll let up on them yet. I still think an honest victory will mean a lot to them. It sure did when they finally beat me in checkers.... but I still prevail in a long race.

Hi Jim! Here's my take on this... Since I am an exhibition player, and a teacher, I play young people all the time (more college age than the ages or your grandsons, but the idea is still the same). Part of what makes me successful, is being able to play with NO ego, and to HELP my opponents to play the way that makes them able to win. I'm not talking about missing shots intentionally, as much as giving them solid pointers on every shot, which may lead to them winning. If they happen to tank the game ball, that's a drag, but I won't deliberately lose. My personal philosophy, when I'm playing some college kid, is that by them winning a game against me, they can legitimately say they "beat a pro", and enjoy all the good feelings that go along with that. It's no skin off my nose, and it only helps enhance my image as someone who will really help them learn to play better. Naturally, when I run across someone who can actually play, I will play at a 'higher level'. It's rare to run across a college person who could beat me hands down, but they are out there. When I find them, I may resort to pulling a couple of "moves" on them, which only experience can give you! LOL Give your grandsons help in how to run out and win...they'll love you for it!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JPB]

Very interesting---You are concerned about the physical hurt but not the mental or emotional damage---or did I read that incorrectly?

Not what I meant if you read it that way. I am very concerned about mental or emotional damage, but I don't think you have to dump to avoid that. I suppose if I thought it was the only way to avoid that I would dump. Others in this thread had some negative experiences it sounds like, but I don't think that is necessary. I think you can spend time with the kids and play with them and teach them to play without losing on purpose. I don't see it as one thing or another. Someone mentioned chess, so I will use it as an example. I don't play the game, but if my kid showed an interest in it I would help him get opportunities to play. So lets say just by knowing the rules and having played a few times in my life I can beat the kid at first. If he starts working he will be able to beat me within a few months probably. maybe 2 or 3 books and some play on the computer and he probably can. I think I could play with him and work through things in his books etc... and still play him hard. I don't see why that would be emotionally damaging if he saw I took an interest in spending time with him and helping him learn. And when he beat me at the ripe old age of 6 or whatever he would feel good about it and himself. Real accomplishment leads to real self esteem. I do see that if all I did was play hard and never taught him, it would be bad. That is pointless.

 

[poolcuemaster]

I play pool with my wife about three nights a week and she would raise hello with me if I ever let her win, and there is not much difference that I see between teenagers and her. She has broke and run on me in eight and nineball several times and is a super strong 4 in both games playing APA, and I think she would have quit and give up if I had not beat her so bad for so long. By the way she tortures most sixes and sevens in APA races and they were very glad when she went up from a three, Please do them a favor and make them deserve a win when it comes, show them the eight on break second ball shot to give them a small spot.---Leonard

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Not what I meant if you read it that way. I am very concerned about mental or emotional damage, but I don't think you have to dump to avoid that. I suppose if I thought it was the only way to avoid that I would dump. Others in this thread had some negative experiences it sounds like, but I don't think that is necessary. I think you can spend time with the kids and play with them and teach them to play without losing on purpose. I don't see it as one thing or another. Someone mentioned chess, so I will use it as an example. I don't play the game, but if my kid showed an interest in it I would help him get opportunities to play. So lets say just by knowing the rules and having played a few times in my life I can beat the kid at first. If he starts working he will be able to beat me within a few months probably. maybe 2 or 3 books and some play on the computer and he probably can. I think I could play with him and work through things in his books etc... and still play him hard. I don't see why that would be emotionally damaging if he saw I took an interest in spending time with him and helping him learn. And when he beat me at the ripe old age of 6 or whatever he would feel good about it and himself. Real accomplishment leads to real self esteem. I do see that if all I did was play hard and never taught him, it would be bad. That is pointless.

Actually my question was intended to provoke thought---And I should have worded it with more of my own thought. My concern is that nurturing interest is a difficult and a delicate process when it involves youth. I do believe your intentions are beyond reproach.

As a different style, when I play a kid with limited skills I try to miss a shot so a good shot is set up for the kid. I love to see the beaming smile when they make the shot. Somehow it encourages them to shoot some more. But then again I'm not sure I want them to spend as much time on the game as I have.

 

[F58_Player]

I dont dump

When i play my 12 year old son i dont dump. I try to level the field as mentioned in other posts, or i play right handed ( I am a southpaw). I also let him try to break and run 15 balls no order just see if he can run out 15 balls in any order. His best has been 10.

 

[JimS]

But then again I'm not sure I want them to spend as much time on the game as I have.

True Dat!... and it's been on my mind ever since they got the table. Luckily they don't appear to be consumed by the desire to achieve perfection in pool and I suspect they'll be playing even less now that it's outdoor soccer and baseball season. I might even be spending this visit over Easter by myself in the basement

I don't dare go outside with them... they'll beat up on me sumthun fierce.

I really appreciate the time you guys/gals have spent participating in this thread. I think I"ve been on the right track with them and don't plan on dumping this weekend... unless one of them seems really depressed by the constant losing. The reason for this thread was that the last couple of visits, as I'm driving the 3 hours home, I get to thinking about beating up on them and I feel kinda bad for them and begin to doubt my tactics. But then I remember back to the first time I beat my grandpa at checkers. I can still see the stunned and unhappy look on his face. He took it kinda hard. I wont!!!! I'll be thrilled for them.

But they're going to have to EARN IT

 

[8-Ball Player]

Just keep playing and don't just let them win. If you dump a game you can't truly celebrate their accomplishments. I always hated it when people go easy on me or let me win, it feels "fake". Just my 10 cents.

 

[8ballEinstein]

I'm going to be in the minority here but here goes. Unless these kids have the desire to be competitive pool players, I can't see bringing out your best game every time you play them.

I have young nephews that I play pool with whenever I pay a family visit. While at the table I'll occasionally have a choice between a low percentage shot or a lock-up safety. So what do I do? I'll take that low percentage flyer every time, even though it may cost me the game. But so what. I'm not there to be a hot dog, whiz-bang, show off. Also, they don't need to see me running out from every angle known to man. What fun is that? My main goal is to have fun with my family members. As it is, whenever they do pull off a win, they talk about it for a week. That tells me they enjoyed my visit.

 

[JimS]

I'm going to be in the minority here but here goes. Unless these kids have the desire to be competitive pool players, I can't see bringing out your best game every time you play them.

I have young nephews that I play pool with whenever I pay a family visit. While at the table I'll occasionally have a choice between a low percentage shot or a lock-up safety. So what do I do? I'll take that low percentage flyer every time, even though it may cost me the game. But so what. I'm not there to be a hot dog, whiz-bang, show off. Also, they don't need to see me running out from every angle known to man. What fun is that? My main goal is to have fun with my family members. As it is, whenever they do pull off a win, they talk about it for a week. That tells me they enjoyed my visit.

I see your point. There's a fine line between dumping and not going all out to WIN. I also agree with 8-ball player in that it's insulting to "let" them win a game. I could pick a game where the kid is really playing well and has made a good move or two and then I could pull back a notch... not shoot the safety etc.

We do have fun when we play but we play pool seriously. NO NONCHALANTIN AT THE POOL TABLE. That's the rule.

 

[LoGiC]

Well, being a youngin' myself (or formerly a child, I'm still young) and having my grandpa show me the game, I can say I'm glad he beat me every time we played. Looking back and reflecting on some of the games, he'd miss a shot if we were playing 8-ball, not to line me up, but just to let me shoot in the game. That kept my interest. He'd only miss once, giving me only one turn. Since I was young (like 10 years old till I was 15), I never beat him before the emphysema kicked in and now he can no longer play pool. So I never beat my grandfather in pool, but I owe 90% of what I know about the game to him. At the prime age of 19, I shoot well now, not professionally great, but I can run a rack or 2 in 8/9 ball. I always credit him for teaching me too. He enjoys watching me play someone if he can get to the tables today. Just a rail hound now, never sharks or baits. Sits quietly and watches me do my thing, play the game the way he taught me and how I feel it should be played. Then tells me what I do wrong after the match. Mostly its just ethics now- gotta smooth out them rough edges somehow!

Thanks Gramps!

 

[RED LITE]

Another suggestion here

This has been my solution to the same problem, ten-year-old opponent.

Playing 8-ball, the kid gets ball-in-hand, and also slop on his 7 balls. In addition, I must shoot my balls in order (similar to 9 ball; must contact my lowest ball on the table; bad hits and other fouls to his benefit - ball in hand).

It evens the playing field, but also allows me to shoot my best on each shot, so it benefits my game at the same time. There can be a lot of hooks out there to make it interesting.

When he starts winning most of the games, time to adjust the spot.

RL

 

[Fred]

As long as they're having fun while they learn nothing else matters. Bowliards might be an option. They would be able to compete with each other and easy for you to give them a spot.

Justin Nuder

 

[GADawg]

Hi Jim! Here's my take on this... Since I am an exhibition player, and a teacher, I play young people all the time (more college age than the ages or your grandsons, but the idea is still the same). Part of what makes me successful, is being able to play with NO ego, and to HELP my opponents to play the way that makes them able to win. I'm not talking about missing shots intentionally, as much as giving them solid pointers on every shot, which may lead to them winning. If they happen to tank the game ball, that's a drag, but I won't deliberately lose. My personal philosophy, when I'm playing some college kid, is that by them winning a game against me, they can legitimately say they "beat a pro", and enjoy all the good feelings that go along with that. It's no skin off my nose, and it only helps enhance my image as someone who will really help them learn to play better. Naturally, when I run across someone who can actually play, I will play at a 'higher level'. It's rare to run across a college person who could beat me hands down, but they are out there. When I find them, I may resort to pulling a couple of "moves" on them, which only experience can give you! LOL Give your grandsons help in how to run out and win...they'll love you for it!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

That's the ticket. I would not dump games with them but you can help them play better by giving advice as they play. You can also play your own game differently, taking more difficult shots. position routes,etc to let them get closer. Might help their games and yours.

 

[PW92174]

I have both a 4 year old son and a 7 year old that both play 9 ball. I am a fairly decent player, but I will spot either one of them ball in hand after each shot they make or I miss. The 7 year old will run out like this about 10-20% of the time after I break for him. The 4 year old will make 3-5 balls until he gets to a long shot that he has no other way to shoot. I probably only break and run 20-39% of the time so the 7 year old give ma a run for my money this way and the 4 year old just enjoys shooting he doesn't care if he wins or loses.