Great mechanics but horrible shot making, can it happen?

[ssbn610g]

Oh, one more thing. If it was me, how many balls you going to give me!! :happydance:

I do knew of you but don't think we have ever met. I have played most of the people you know on Wednesday night. I am having a bit of fun here and nothing creepy. No excuses and no malice. Having fun playing again and I hope to have the chance to play more.

Cya on tables where all will be revealed, maybe!!

 

[hang-the-9]

I hesitate writing this but here it goes.

If this is the Saturday extravaganza at J's and it was scotch doubles, it could have been me. However, there is no piano at J's but there is one at the B. Cafe next to the Snooker table. I don't play much at the B. Cafe because I have a hard time with the lighting (two lights per table with IMHO a dim high efficiency bulb in each). At least they are not bright enough for my liking. A couple of those players this last Saturday in that rotating team game are A/A- players (tournament proven) and the others are probably B level except for the beginner. :smile: Next time, feel free to jump in as it is a bunch of fun and you will be surprised how easy it is to lose your rhythm playing doubles. BTW - it's 1/1/2 progressive.

To Geno's point and if it was me, I have been fighting my eyes. My line changes depending on where I place my head with respect to the cue during the same shot. I need to move my head more to the right. Recently, I have found a longer bridge and moving further back seems to help. Juror still out on this. I am still experimenting to find the optimum spot. Sometimes getting up or looking at the shot again from a more upright view helps. Another funny thing, it can vary from day to day. Hit the spot make the ball one day and the next day hitting the spot and not making it the next. I worked real hard to hone the mechanics to eliminate all the things that could cause or explain the misses. It all helped and made me realize there was something else going on. So, I set up a series of reference shots and found out that what I was seeing was not the correct straight line from my eye down the stick to the CB to the spot of the OB dead center into the pocket. I have noticed that I see two images out of my right eye by itself. If is not as pronounced when I looked through both eyes. I am going to have an eye exam in the near future to see if something is going on that can be corrected.

If it wasn't me, sorry for taking up this space and I won't detract from this thread.

BTW - if it was me, no offense will be taken. If wasn't, the other guy might not appreciate it.

Yes, at the Billiards Cafe, was that you at the center table Sunday? Biker looking guy I think. Send me a PM, you need to work out that missing balls a few inches from the pcket LOL There was a group of 4 people there including a kid looked to be about my son's age, 13,14,15

If that was you, I'd probably give you 3 going to 7, maybe 4 if I wanted to really focus on not messing up, if that's how you normally shoot.

 

[bdorman]

I am going to have an eye exam in the near future to see if something is going on that can be corrected.

SSBN - During the eye exam ask them to check for prism correction; it's not part of the standard exam although it only takes 30 seconds. It's when your two eyes aren't in perfect alignment and you see a faint "ghost" image next to the real image. Easily corrected with glasses; unfortunately it can't be corrected with contacts or surgery.

I played six years of high school and college football and pretty competitive basketball...and never realized I had it until I started playing pool.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

I'd estimate this phenomenon down to these parameters:

-Lack of true concentration, especially in the part involving the aiming process as a whole. Player goes through the steps but not really into them.
-Trying to apply all possible elements in shot estimation without critical ability in order to select which ones are needed in each case.
-Nothing wrong with any part of the shot making preparation but overmechanical approach which lacks feeling, usually due to lack of practice needed to make the process automatic.
-Too much thinking during shooting, leading to subtle diversions in movement.

Nice thread.
Petros

 

[jtaylor996]

I'm actually hoping to see him there again as I really wanted to find out how he got good mechanics with such poor aim. But I was hesitant as to how to talk to him. "hey how are you? So.. why do you suck so bad at making shots?" LOL had a tough time thinking about a way to find out what was going on there without sounding like a jerk :smile:

I'm sure if he knew, he wouldn't be missing the balls...

This sounds like me, lately, for some reason. I'm just hitting a million balls to get past it. But if you asked me that question, I would definitely say "The hell if I know! Got any ideas?".


Edit: I'm not that bad lately, I'm just hard on myself. I was running 30 at straight pool the other day... but If I miss one simple shot like that, ugh, I get pretty irked.

 

[ssbn610g]

Yes, at the Billiards Cafe, was that you at the center table Sunday? Biker looking guy I think. Send me a PM, you need to work out that missing balls a few inches from the pcket LOL There was a group of 4 people there including a kid looked to be about my son's age, 13,14,15

If that was you, I'd probably give you 3 going to 7, maybe 4 if I wanted to really focus on not messing up, if that's how you normally shoot.

No, although I do own bikes. I was not at the Billiards Cafe Sunday. I'll still take the balls though. :grin:

 

[ssbn610g]

SSBN - During the eye exam ask them to check for prism correction; it's not part of the standard exam although it only takes 30 seconds. It's when your two eyes aren't in perfect alignment and you see a faint "ghost" image next to the real image. Easily corrected with glasses; unfortunately it can't be corrected with contacts or surgery.

I played six years of high school and college football and pretty competitive basketball...and never realized I had it until I started playing pool.

Thanks for the comment. Ghosting is the perfrect way to describe it. I have complained about it before but no one has found anything. I have resisted glasses for many years now. What is interesting is when I look straight ahead with my head up it is at its worst. If I bow my head forward and look through the top, it is not as bad.

Thanks again. I will mention this at my next exam. :thumbup:

 

[3andstop]

LOL...If you don't think this is possible, play straight pool. Brain cramps abound. :grin:

 

[ssbn610g]

I'd estimate this phenomenon down to these parameters:

-Lack of true concentration, especially in the part involving the aiming process as a whole. Player goes through the steps but not really into them.
-Trying to apply all possible elements in shot estimation without critical ability in order to select which ones are needed in each case.
-Nothing wrong with any part of the shot making preparation but overmechanical approach which lacks feeling, usually due to lack of practice needed to make the process automatic.
-Too much thinking during shooting, leading to subtle diversions in movement.

Nice thread.
Petros

Thanks, great comments and I know I am guilty of these. Some to a greater extent than others. I have worked hard on my shooting pre-shot routine and also how I execute my shot.. Huge difference in results. I tend to be very hard on myself. I have worked real hard in getting into the happy zone and forgetting the last shot I screwed up. Not all missed shots are because of vision. Also, every day I do stroking drills trying to create a fluid stroke. Well thought out response and I thank you. :thumbup:

 

[SeabrookMiglla]

Form is a good thing to have, but it isn't everything. I think developing shoulder muscles and learning how to stroke certain shots is more significant than form.

 

[FranCrimi]

You can't have great mechanics and miss shots most of the time. That doesn't define great mechanics. Regardless of how that person looks at the table, they do not have great mechanics.

 

[sfleinen]

You can't have great mechanics and miss shots most of the time. That doesn't define great mechanics. Regardless of how that person looks at the table, they do not have great mechanics.

This thread could be a disguised setup for an aiming system plug.

 

[RiverCity]

Im not saying that this is the case, but Ive noticed a lot of what I can only term posers the last several years. They worry about how they look while theyre playing. They worry about what cue they have and what everybody else is playing with. They worry about "looking good" rather than playing. But at the end of the day they cant make 3 fooking balls. Its the same kind of player that when they make a ball, they start looking around to see if anybody else saw it. Typically they also like to pepper conversations with as much pool lingo as they can fit in.
You want to mess with him? Go up to him and say something like...
"Hey, I really hate to bother you, but seeing how well you stroke the ball I was wondering if we could play something cheap, Im still learning. 50-100 OK?"
If he says yes, play it and see how he really plays. If he says no, say "Thats ok, Im saving up for a new Meucci..... Need to save up like 2000." Then walk away.
Chuck
Keeping a straight face is the teacher

 

[naji]

Many players have the skill level with the cue and the stroke way up there. On a scale of 1 to 9 they are up around 7 to 9.

But the skill level as far as the eyes being right are around 3 to 5.

You can have the straightest shooting gun but if the sights are not right on you will always miss the target the same way.

This is most of the trouble with players that are rated 3's in APA . The eyes are so far off that they can't see the shot correctly.

Once a player learns where these eyes need to be manually instead of instinctually the results are unreal.

What happens here is the non dominant eye is being allowed to work like the dominant eye just a little bit giving the wrong picture to the brain.

If the player could hit a million balls a week they could get there naturally.

Or you could just learn how this is done with the eyes and they results are great for everyone.

Now the person can improve because they can actually envision the shot correctly.

This is what I teach.

Have this person call me and I will do my FREE phone lesson with them. 715-563-8712

You will see that the results will be rediculously good.

I have to agree with you 100%. I wish i knew you existed 30 years ago! You are right on the money.

 

[nsherman2006]

You must be watching me play

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Imagine putting a rifle under your right eye. Now close your right eye and try to shoot it with your left eye but leave the eye in the same place.

We know that won't work because your left eye is not lined up on the sights.

Again This obviously will not work.

This is exactly what is happening with players like this. The non dominant eye is lined up on the natural sight of the shot but the player cannot tell.

The more off the eyes the worse the player shoots.

But this actually happens to every player. just not to this degree.

When I do mini lessons at poolhalls I like to start it off by showing a 3 rated player how to get the eyes lined up.

Most 3's that have played for a long time and havn't improved much have the non dominant eye trying to do the aiming.

Usually a 3 cannot make a straight in shot from about 6 feet long.

After watching them miss this shot about 7 or 8 times i tell everyone there, that in about 15 minutes i will have this person make this shot 5 to 10 times in a row.

The reaction to my statement is usually pretty funny.

The player has never failed to make it 5 to 10 times in a row.

I've done this over 200 times for sure, maybe more.

To help a 3 do this almost seems like a miracle to them and the other players.

The skill level of the player pretty much coincides with how well they naturally get the eyes in the most correct position.

I've been trying to tell the world this for about 5 years now but only the lucky ones have listened. and learned how to do this manually.

Depending on the brain to sort this out is hit and miss to say the least.

If you can line the sights up on the target with a gun anyone can hit the target.

it's the same with pool.

The shill level with the cue is always way ahead of the eyes.

In this case it is very obvious.

I think you are on to something important here.

I may be deceiving myself, but I think I have a pretty decent stroke. It's much better than when I was a young man, back when I never seemed to miss, and yet these days I go in streaks sometimes where I miss almost as bad as the man mentioned in the OP. I'm just about dead positive that most of my misses have nothing to do with my stroke, but are somehow vision related.

I have very weird vision due to a shop accident about six years ago where my right eye got crushed by a chunk of wood off my table saw. I have always been strongly right eye dominant, but now my dominance seems to switch very easily depending on a lot of factors.

I see a ghost image of everything I look at. It is because the artificial lens implant they put in there has slipped and is no longer on center. The ghost image is only slightly lighter than the actual image, and it always appears at the 4:30 position in my visual field. If I have to drive at night, I see a trail of headlights shooting out at 4:30 from every single point source of light. If I am facing heavy traffic, I have to close the eye or I'd be completely disoriented by hundreds of false points of light.

The accident also torn my iris, so it is permanently dilated no matter how bright it gets. The light over the table causes considerable glare and subsequent loss of visual contrast. Here's a pic my wife took of me a couple years ago. Look at the tiny pupil in my left eye, then look at the right one. You can see the reflection off the lens implant because the pupil is wide open. Pretty creepy, eh?

Here's a mock-up of the difference between my eyes I did in Photoshop. Close to real life, except that's not what I actually "see" when both eyes are open since my brain seems to shut out much of the image from the right eye, leaving just enough info from the right eye most times to have some semblance of depth perception.


Gene, is anything that you can think of that might improve my ability to see if I'm on the correct line or not? I've been toying with the idea of putting a patch over it, but then I'd have no depth perception at all. Plus, I already tried it a little and it feels totally wrong.

 

[genomachino]

Might be just what you need............

I think you are on to something important here.

I may be deceiving myself, but I think I have a pretty decent stroke. It's much better than when I was a young man, back when I never seemed to miss, and yet these days I go in streaks sometimes where I miss almost as bad as the man mentioned in the OP. I'm just about dead positive that most of my misses have nothing to do with my stroke, but are somehow vision related.

I have very weird vision due to a shop accident about six years ago where my right eye got crushed by a chunk of wood off my table saw. I have always been strongly right eye dominant, but now my dominance seems to switch very easily depending on a lot of factors.

I see a ghost image of everything I look at. It is because the artificial lens implant they put in there has slipped and is no longer on center. The ghost image is only slightly lighter than the actual image, and it always appears at the 4:30 position in my visual field. If I have to drive at night, I see a trail of headlights shooting out at 4:30 from every single point source of light. If I am facing heavy traffic, I have to close the eye or I'd be completely disoriented by hundreds of false points of light.

The accident also torn my iris, so it is permanently dilated no matter how bright it gets. The light over the table causes considerable glare and subsequent loss of visual contrast. Here's a pic my wife took of me a couple years ago. Look at the tiny pupil in my left eye, then look at the right one. You can see the reflection off the lens implant because the pupil is wide open. Pretty creepy, eh?

Here's a mock-up of the difference between my eyes I did in Photoshop. Close to real life, except that's not what I actually "see" when both eyes are open since my brain seems to shut out much of the image from the right eye, leaving just enough info from the right eye most times to have some semblance of depth perception.


Gene, is anything that you can think of that might improve my ability to see if I'm on the correct line or not? I've been toying with the idea of putting a patch over it, but then I'd have no depth perception at all. Plus, I already tried it a little and it feels totally wrong.

here's the main problem. it might just be a little bit harder with your vision trouble.

Your right eye sees the shot when you cut to the right. the left eye sees when you cut to the left.

The dominant eye needs to be in the most dominant position to envision the shot correctly both ways.

The biggest problem though is it's hard to keep the dominant eye in the correct position when you cut the way of your non dominant eye.

Unless this can be done your not getting the right picture to the brain.

Just give me a call when your by a table and I'll help you learn how to do this.

This is what I teach to everyone but I have found that players with some type of eye trouble have a little more difficulty getting this done.

Just give me a call when your by a table and I'll help you understand how this works.

This helps everyone. For players with eye trouble it is a must.

715-563-8712 . anytime after 3:00 PM even tonight would work....

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Gene, I just got called up from the table by the boss. I promised her we'd watch a movie tonight, otherwise I'd take you up on your offer right now.

Would late tomorrow afternoon work for you? I can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer. You must really love the game to be so generous with your time.

 

[ipoppa33]

Gene please gas up your RV and make a trip to Mass or Rhode Island so we could get lessons. I'll book a lesson right now if you come tour New England.

Stan

 

[genomachino]

I see it all the time......100's of times, over and over...

Sorry Gene, I can't agree with that. Most 3's in APA have relatively poor or very poor fundamentals. Their aiming may not be very good and/or their visual alignment may be poor but it is mostly irrelevant as they can't make a proper bridge, their stance/alignment is horrible and they couldn't deliver a straight stroke 1 out of 10 times if their life depended on it.

I'd go as far as to say that most APA skill levels suffer more from stroke and fundamentals flaws than they do from aiming flaws.

I'm not saying this on a theory. I'm saying this on Experience of seeing it over and over.

Crummy stroke that many 3's have and bad bridge but they can shoot the ball right in once they get the eyes right. .

Once they can shoot the ball in they enjoy playing more and the stroke and bridge will catch up.

In Virginia I did this with a gal that was legally blind.

SO SO stroke and so so bridge.

The same shot she missed about 15 times in a row she made 6 times in a row after getting the eyes right.

Missed the seventh.

But after she was making the ball we couldn't get her off the table.

She was having fun making the ball.

That's what it is all about. Fun............Plus that big smile...............