green fees and added $

S

schon267

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was just reading a thread announcing shannon daultons new 8-ball tour, hat's off to shannon for putting on the tournaments. but one thing always bothers me, is the supposed addded money when there is a greens fee present.
when you charge a $20 green fee, your collecting (with 64 players for example) $1280, so your not really adding $2000, your only adding $720. the only thing your doing is putting the green fees back in the pot. it sounds good to be adding $2000, but your not really taking $2000 from your own pocket and adding it to the purse.
I know I'll probably get crap for this post, and I'm not knocking shannon or anybody that puts on a tournament or series of tournaments, but just be straight about what your really adding. hey, $720 is better then nothing!
 
Added Money....? YES!!!

The biggest difference for a player is that added money is usually added reguardless of the number of players. This means that yes the rooms are putting back in the greens fees plus the difference to the amount added. As a player would you rather the rooms kept the greens fee which is theirs, unless we think they should donate the room for the weekend, and add only the $700.00 (approx.) to the pot. Now as players it cost us the same money and we are getting a chance at $1,300.00 less.

Do we as players feel that the rooms owe us something? Without the rooms we would have no tournaments. Without tour directors we would have no tours. If players feel that rooms, owners, directors, promotors, etc. should do what they do for free we will have no events to play in. Do any of us go to work or our business and put in our time then say "Hey...ya know what? Keep the money and let me give you another $700.00?"

Guys let's keep it real! We pay them a greens fee to use their rooms, tables, etc... They then give it all back to us plus some in hopes that we spend enough on food and drink to make their profit. Roughly we need to spend $2,100.00 ($700.00 profit) just for them to break even on the added money. Not to mention if there was advertising cost, added help wages for the event, etc...

In reality if all the rooms just said "No more added money and a $20.00 greens fee." We would all show up anyway because that how it is. The room would start off $1,200.00 ahead instead of a minimum $2,000.00 in the hole. So who is doing who a favor? Let's not push our luck complaining and nit picking about where the money comes from.

Not meant to harsh just to the point.
 
I have no problem with room owners getting a greens fee. We all want them to stay in business and they have to make some money somewhere.

What I do have a problem with, is the way it is done.

I can not understand why they have to advertise that there is $2000 added money, when they are going to take the greens fees out of the prize fund and they end up only adding $700. It just seems to be deceiving to me. The players are only getting the benefit of the $700 and not the $2000.

I would suggest that the entry fee be adjusted and the greens fees listed seperately. For example, lets say a $50 entry fee plus a $15 greens fees.
Then the players can easily multiply $50 by the number of players, and add in whatever amount of added money there is, and determine exactly what they are playing for. Nothing is hidden and even a first grade student could figure out the total prize pool and verify the payouts.

Too many times, I have heard players grumbling about payouts and not being able to figure out where the money went. Usually, there are greens fees that they have not figured in and may not know exist.
 
Greens Fees Etc.

WOW......Back in 1978 when I was a member of the old P.P.P.A out of New Jersey....all anyone did was Nag...Nag...Nag...Yak ..Yak..Yak... on why THEY (the Players) are continually getting screwed... and there was no money on the pro your....Ha !!!!! I have opened up no less than 18 Upscale Rooms in my time and I have been playing profesionally since 1978....You Guys DON'T GET IT....and you probably never will. The Kicker is ....you all wonder why there is no money for all of you "first class" pool players out there....Let me put it this way.....I have a Professional Sponsor...to whom I am very Gratefull....All you naggers out there...if you COULD sponsor someone.....would you sponsor YOU......????? I have seen guys and gals travel halfway around the world to chase a $ 1000 first place in some tourney, in God knows where. Keep complaining and you will never see this game come out of the "Gutter"....
 
Don't forget that part of the "missing" money goes to the TD and staff. Its a common rule that the TD takes a % out of the auction money as well. I have no complaint about this...I've ran many LARGE tournaments and what you go through is unbelieveable...the TD deserves to be paid. Time ain't free. When we used to get the late Red Willis to run a tourney, we paid his meals, hotel room, and never questioned what he kept. He deserved it for one because of the work he did, quality players he got to show up, and the extra effort he put into the auction. I've played in a tourney when Red did the auction, and he'd raise over $4000. Same tourney but different TD running the auction and it drops to $1500 or less.
As for green fees...you know thats the house money. If they advertise $1500 added based on 64 players...it makes no difference if they put up the green fees or take money from their safe...cash is cash.
Just my thoughts...
KV
And one more thought...if you have a quality TD like the dearly missed Red, then go to more of his tournaments, drive a little extra, support him all you can. Because if the TD is going to keep say $500 out of the fund, you don't mind it if he skillfully got the fund to $4000. Now if you have a lousy TD keep the same $500 and he slacked his way to a $1500 fund...then you have a problem. A quality TD (have I said I miss Red Willis) is well worth it and makes a HUGE difference in the fields & payouts.
A lousy TD...well I'll give an example...the last SMS...and many of us know who I'm ranting about...did not even call out the player list before the auction. Most in the room did not even know that Stevie Moore was in the tourney...Brian White, Scott Raybon or Hennesse from TN, or any number of top players. Someone (me) even shouted "name all the players before the blind bids"...he refused and said quote "everyone knows who is here". He only sold 2 maybe 3 blinds when he could of sold twice that. I for one would hate to spend $800 on a top local player...only to see Shannon Daulton walk in after the blind bids...I've been cheated!!! Plus too, he never told what the player had recently won. He just called their name and took the bids. You have to say..."come on guys this is BJ, he recently won a 750 player tournament and a pro tourney in FL. beating US Open champ Gabe Owens in the final. Then the railbirds come off the hip much faster. Makes such a difference to pump it up a bit...or sleepwalk through it like the last SMS. Rant off...thanks for listening.
 
you guys are missing the point

with the exception of rich. r , you guys are missing my point, if you want to charge a greens fee, which is fine!! don't intermingle it with the added $, on your advertisements. just like rich.r 's post. that way every player knows what the prise fund will be without having to take out the greens fee money to figure out the purse. it's misleading!!!! $50 entry is $50 per player going to the purse, plus whatever added $ you elect to add. not $50 entry fee w/ a $20 green fee included in the entry fee, which really only makes it a $30 dollar entry fee going to the purse!!!!! does anybody besides rich.r understand what I'm saying?????? IT'S MISLEADING ADVERTISING MAKING THE TOURNY SOUND LIKE ALL THIS MONEY IS BEING ADDED WHEN IT'S NOT!!

I have no problem with the t.d 's or room owner trying to make a living, nor did I say anything to that effect on my post. just advertise it the right way. jeeeeeeezzz , some of you guy's just pounce on people without trying to understand where there coming from in the first place. evidently rich.r was the only one who really understood what he was reading and the point I was trying to make!!!!
 
green fee

schon267 said:
with the exception of rich. r , you guys are missing my point, if you want to charge a greens fee, which is fine!! don't intermingle it with the added $, on your advertisements. just like rich.r 's post. that way every player knows what the prise fund will be without having to take out the greens fee money to figure out the purse. it's misleading!!!! $50 entry is $50 per player going to the purse, plus whatever added $ you elect to add. not $50 entry fee w/ a $20 green fee included in the entry fee, which really only makes it a $30 dollar entry fee going to the purse!!!!! does anybody besides rich.r understand what I'm saying?????? IT'S MISLEADING ADVERTISING MAKING THE TOURNY SOUND LIKE ALL THIS MONEY IS BEING ADDED WHEN IT'S NOT!!

I have no problem with the t.d 's or room owner trying to make a living, nor did I say anything to that effect on my post. just advertise it the right way. jeeeeeeezzz , some of you guy's just pounce on people without trying to understand where there coming from in the first place. evidently rich.r was the only one who really understood what he was reading and the point I was trying to make!!!!
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all i have to say as aroom owner is go out and buy you a room and run it your way. ------ oh bankrubt it is a buissnes guys come on we are not getting rich just have you a place to play !!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
schon267 said:
with the exception of rich. r , you guys are missing my point, if you want to charge a greens fee, which is fine!! don't intermingle it with the added $, on your advertisements. just like rich.r 's post. that way every player knows what the prise fund will be without having to take out the greens fee money to figure out the purse. it's misleading!!!! $50 entry is $50 per player going to the purse, plus whatever added $ you elect to add. not $50 entry fee w/ a $20 green fee included in the entry fee, which really only makes it a $30 dollar entry fee going to the purse!!!!! does anybody besides rich.r understand what I'm saying?????? IT'S MISLEADING ADVERTISING MAKING THE TOURNY SOUND LIKE ALL THIS MONEY IS BEING ADDED WHEN IT'S NOT!!

I have no problem with the t.d 's or room owner trying to make a living, nor did I say anything to that effect on my post. just advertise it the right way. jeeeeeeezzz , some of you guy's just pounce on people without trying to understand where there coming from in the first place. evidently rich.r was the only one who really understood what he was reading and the point I was trying to make!!!!
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NOONE is missing your point. The fact of the matter is this: you pay an entry fee to the tournament which goes toward the tournament prize fund. You also pay a "greens fee" which goes toward paying for your table time. If you don't pay a greens fee, then you are probably paying quarters/dollars into the tables. Either way, the "table money" is going to the room owner. PERIOD. Now, if the room owner chooses to add some money back, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE HE GOT THE MONEY FROM. PERIOD. This greens fee is NOT something that players have a right to get back. It paid for your use of the tables.

Once a room owner, tournament director or other source chooses to "add" money to an event, IT IS COMING FROM THEIR POCKET. It doesn't matter whether it is from "greens fees", "registration fees", sponsors or other funds.

I suggest that the next time you enter a tournament and are trying to calculate exactly what the prize fund should be according to the number of players, etc.... then you should ONLY take the ENTRY portion of the fees times the number of players. period. anything over that amount is coming from someone who is adding money back to the prize fund and, again, it doesn't matter where that money comes from.... most players are just thankful to have it.

I wouldn't expect any room owner, tournament director or other person responsible for having a successful tournament to work for free...... BUT many times they do in order to make the players happy. Be thankful when that happens.

Tammie Jones
 
stick 8 and tammie

do you two not understand the english language??????

#1- I said nothing about the room owner doing a tourny for free or that he was obligated to for me, the pool player!!!

#2- the point of my statement was not to advertise the added $ with the green fees included in the entry fees. if you say $2000 or $200 added, that should be added to the ENTRY FEES!!!!!, list the green fees as a seperate charge!!!!!

tammie, I have met you before and your a very good player, why you don't, as a pool player understand what I'm saying is kind of stupifying to me.


PEOPLE, READ THE WORDS, I NEVER SNIVELED OR CRIED ABOUT THE ROOM OWNERS OR TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS MAKING MONEY, YET THAT'S ALL EVERYBODY SEEMS TO GET FROM MY STATEMENTS. I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD RUN A TOURNY FOR FREE. JUST ADVERTISE IT CORRECTLY WITH REGARDS TO THE ENTRY FEES AND GREEN FEES!
 
I dare say that every tournament player understands how it works. Whether you advertise it as $30 Entry and $10 Green Fees with $500 added, or $40 entry including Green Fees and $500 added, it all comes out the same. Most tourmanents clearly explain where the money goes. Find out before you enter. Added money is still added money.
In the above example with 40 players there is $1200 plus $500 for a total pay out of $1700. Either way you promote it, it's still the same money going to the same places.
Steve
 
I am not a pool room owner but I believe they do it that way in order to comply with the local statutes. In a $7.00 entry tournament $5 is for tournament and $2 is for rental of the tables, or green fees. Then the owner turns around and adds the $2. The $2 is his and he receives it so in effect he is adding $2 of his own money.

I was told by a room owner that he has to add money in order to comply with the law.

A local strip club is running a $5 tournament where he does add $75 on top of entry no matter how few people show up. Now he decided that he is no longer going to open up the tables and players have to put in quarters. so the local shortstop, who was robbing the tournment anyway, decided he is too cheap to feed the tables and quit playing there. He just wanted to play for free all the time and always win.

Jake
 
pooltchr said:
I dare say that every tournament player understands how it works.
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Steve, on this point, I have to disagree. On a number of occassions, on different tours, I have heard many players grumbling and wondering where the money went. On more than one occassion, I have reminded players that there are probably greens fee coming out of the prize fund. The usualy response I get is, "They should have told us."

I agree that the prize money comes out the same and I totally agree that the room owner and the TD deserve to get some compensation. You will get no argument there from me. However, it is obvious to me that not all players understand what is going on, as well as tournament directors think. By clearly advertising the entry fee, the greens fees and the added money, it would just make everything clearer for everyone.
 
So, let me get this right.

RichR and schon267 only want a truthful breakdown of entry fee, added money and green fees for all tournament advertising.

That sounds simple enogh. Some players just like to see if the printed flyers really match the actual funding. This is not unusual, you read an ad in the newspaper and go to the store and expect to see exactly what is advertised.

As a tournament director and tournament player, I've always made it a point to check prize fund totals (entry fee x players paid [minus greens if any] + added money) if it doesn't come up the the figures I caculated, I ask questions out of curiosity.

In the tournaments I run, I always post the prize money breakdown. Mainly because I can point to the posted breakdown to anyone that asks (and at first there were always players and NON-players that asked)

Maybe it's none of my business, but if the house and TD are taking a cut of the prize fund, I would like to know. If they start taking too much, I just voice my opinion by not playing in their tournaments anymore, and usually, these types of room owners and TDs lose their business.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
So, let me get this right.

RichR and schon267 only want a truthful breakdown of entry fee, added money and green fees for all tournament advertising.

That sounds simple enogh. Some players just like to see if the printed flyers really match the actual funding. This is not unusual, you read an ad in the newspaper and go to the store and expect to see exactly what is advertised.
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That is all I am after Tom. I believe it is called "truth in advertising".

I don't mean to imply that any room owners or TD's are taking money that they shouldn't. As I said, they have a right. However, since the players are putting up a lot of money also, they also have a right to know where the money is going.
 
Rich R. said:
That is all I am after Tom. I believe it is called "truth in advertising".

I don't mean to imply that any room owners or TD's are taking money that they shouldn't. As I said, they have a right. However, since the players are putting up a lot of money also, they also have a right to know where the money is going.
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I agree "All" players have that right.

When tournaments are run correctly, have good treatment towards players, have good equipment and good payouts to the field, the wording of a flyer or Ad doesn't take anything away from the success.
 
thank you rich and tom in cincy

finally people who can understand the point I was trying to make:)

thank you rich and tom, and your right, we as players have the right to know how the money is being dealt with, that way if we don't like it, we can play elsewhere. the american right of choice. truth in advertising was the point to my post.

now that that's settled, all of you go play pool!!!!:)
 
schon267 said:
with the exception of rich. r , you guys are missing my point, if you want to charge a greens fee, which is fine!! don't intermingle it with the added $, on your advertisements. just like rich.r 's post. that way every player knows what the prise fund will be without having to take out the greens fee money to figure out the purse. it's misleading!!!! $50 entry is $50 per player going to the purse, plus whatever added $ you elect to add. not $50 entry fee w/ a $20 green fee included in the entry fee, which really only makes it a $30 dollar entry fee going to the purse!!!!! does anybody besides rich.r understand what I'm saying?????? IT'S MISLEADING ADVERTISING MAKING THE TOURNY SOUND LIKE ALL THIS MONEY IS BEING ADDED WHEN IT'S NOT!!
schon267 said:
I understand your point in general. It is sometimes misleading the way payouts are advertised. When entry fees do not disclose the green fee amount that is going to be deducted then there is a problem. I do not however see your point as it relates to the tournament that you made an example of. There was no "intermingling" of funds and it is clearly described in the text that $40 goes to entry fee and $20 goes to green fee. Best that I can cipher, If you take the amount of entrants x 40 + $2000 you should come up with the amount in question. :confused:

What some people fail to understand (or choose not to care) is that the room owner incurs extra expense when hosting a tournament. Extra employees are needed to accomodate the amount of people at the event. Some room owners even choose to recover the tables for the event. Greens fees offset the extra expenses and the revenue lost to the tables not being available for rent. The added money is the carrot in front of the mule. They give this amount to the tourney fund in hopes that the number of people purchasing goods will eclipse the investment. That is a fairly risky proposition seeing that most of the patrons of the event are pool players. Pool players as a group have been known to be quite frugal.

I know most of what I have stated is fairly common knowledge but since I was the original poster of the tournament in question I thought I would reply. In the end, no matter how you look at it, the money is being added and the venue is being supplied. IMO, I see this as a win-win situation for the players.
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