grip pressure when using english / side spin

[CreeDo]

The cue ball only knows where it got struck, and how hard. It doesn't care what your hand 4 feet away is doing

However when you clench you bring in extra muscles, and these muscles might alter where the stick points or how the arm swings (for example, causing the butt of the cue to move outward, which means the point of the cue moves inward, which would affect where the tip hits the ball).

Generally if you don't need to use extra muscles, you should avoid using them because it just complicates the stroke. And you definitely don't need them to get good action on the cue ball.

 

[naji]

The cue ball only knows where it got struck, and how hard. It doesn't care what your hand 4 feet away is doing

However when you clench you bring in extra muscles, and these muscles might alter where the stick points or how the arm swings (for example, causing the butt of the cue to move outward, which means the point of the cue moves inward, which would affect where the tip hits the ball).

Generally if you don't need to use extra muscles, you should avoid using them because it just complicates the stroke. And you definitely don't need them to get good action on the cue ball.

Somewhat i disagree respectably; no matter how much muscles you use it does not matter as long as you 1- follow through and 2- your cue backward and forward movements are compatible with each other. In another word, you cannot just pull cue 2" and expect smooth stroke if you need to get some speed out of CB. both acts has to be balanced.

 

[JoeyA]

"Effective" swerve is affected by how hard you hit the cue ball. The key word is effective.

If you want to learn A LOT MORE about squirt and swerve and how you can improve your game, you should watch THIS VIDEO.

 

[3andstop]

This may not be the best analogy, but.... Let's try to imagine a car rolling down the street at "X" speed. We hit a pothole with good shocks on the car. Our body bounces "Y" amount.

Now, lets take the shocks of fthe car, and replace them with 4 solid steel bar struts.

Given the same pothole, at the same speed and location of hit, you are bound to feel a different shock iin your body, and most likely everything about your body's movement will be different also.

My contention is that difference in shock cushioning, in the car is relative to the defusing of the cue ball's shock from an off center hit with a lighter grip.

 

[CreeDo]

Somewhat i disagree respectably; no matter how much muscles you use it does not matter as long as you 1- follow through and 2- your cue backward and forward movements are compatible with each other. In another word, you cannot just pull cue 2" and expect smooth stroke if you need to get some speed out of CB. both acts has to be balanced.

hrm, I don't disagree with that....
I think the reason extra muscles may be a problem is they must now be trained to work the same way every time.

In other words, if you choose to clench the back hand, now you must be aware of how that's changing the butt position and then make sure it's the same clench every time. You can accidentally get too loose or too firm on the clench, if your arm is tired or you're feeling tense.

If you choose not to clench, then you simply are in a relaxed state and it's hard to accidentally get too loose (it's already as loose as you dare to use) or to get too tight (there was no tightening to begin with, so you can't over-tighten).

My contention is that difference in shock cushioning, in the car is relative to the defusing of the cue ball's shock from an off center hit with a lighter grip.

Yeah, but does that change the direction the car is driving, all other things being equal? Clenching no doubt changes the feel of the cue in the palm of your hand, you may feel that vibration at impact more strongly, but I would think the cue ball reacts the same anyway if it's hit with the same speed and on the same CB point.

 

[kwoshunli]

if i hold a cue stick on my back hand, i notice that there are more fingers (index finger, ring finger, etc) holding the right hand of the cue, than the left (only the thumb).

when i shoot left english, if you analyze, it's the right part of the butt cue, which has more fingers holding it. (index, middle, etc) . the result is accurate stroking.

when i shoot right english, only the thumb is controlling the cue stick. the result is more deflection/ squirt on the cue ball.

this is where i wanna understand.

 

[3andstop]

Yeah, but does that change the direction the car is driving, all other things being equal?

No, the direction that your butt is jumping off the seat.


Car = Cue stick

hitting pothole = contact shock (action)

shocks = grip tightness / amount of shock dissipation (variable)

our body jumping off the seat = (reaction)

Again, maybe not the best analogy, but its what I thought of.

In fact, with all things being equal, when hitting the CB to the left or right of its vertical axis, tip hardness will affect the amount of deflection.

LD shafts change deflection, why wouldn't a soft grip as opposed to tight grip do likewise?

After all, the mechanism isn't confined to the cue stick hitting the ball. It's the cue stick and our attached hand, arm and body.

I'll bet, grip / touch will have more affect on deflection than LD shafts themselves.

 

[lfigueroa]

Somewhat i disagree respectably; no matter how much muscles you use it does not matter as long as you 1- follow through and 2- your cue backward and forward movements are compatible with each other. In another word, you cannot just pull cue 2" and expect smooth stroke if you need to get some speed out of CB. both acts has to be balanced.

There is also the issue of what is natural for you as an individual player. Not many guys are going to have success with the late, great Stan Musial's patented corkscrew stance, but there it is. That's why it's important to differentiate between guys saying "this" is the way to do it, when they should be saying this is how "I" do it, YMMV.

Lou Figueroa

 

[alstl]

Take a look at say..Shannon Daulton and or Buddy Hall.These two look like their trying choke the life out of the cue. Now take a look at say..Busty and or Efren or Danny D.I like to grip the cue lite but I'm not sure that it matters all that much.I'm thinking at impact we all tend to put more pressure on the cue, maybe.I think it matters on the type of shot you are shooting however.

One thing I noticed at Tunica watching SVB up close,was that he regrips the cue on his last stroke right before he pulls the trigger.Funny as I have never heard anyone mention that he does this.Yes I tried it when I got home but it was not for me,lol Just some food for thought,I guess.John B.

I agree although if there is an exception it is Bustamante.

 

[ENGLISH!]

if i hold a cue stick on my back hand, i notice that there are more fingers (index finger, ring finger, etc) holding the right hand of the cue, than the left (only the thumb).

when i shoot left english, if you analyze, it's the right part of the butt cue, which has more fingers holding it. (index, middle, etc) . the result is accurate stroking.

when i shoot right english, only the thumb is controlling the cue stick. the result is more deflection/ squirt on the cue ball.

this is where i wanna understand.

How are you applying your english? That is parallel, back hand english, front hand english, combo B&FH english, last stroke redirect, swipe, etc.

 

[kwoshunli]

How are you applying your english? That is parallel, back hand english, front hand english, combo B&FH english, last stroke redirect, swipe, etc.

i use both F&B hand all together.

But for demonstration and consistency sake, i also tried Back hand english only.

From CCB, 12 inches close bridge, pivot 1 tip of left and right english. the same stroke direction, the same tip offset.

But when the Cue hits the CB, i can really feel that the CB deflects more with right english than left english.

 

[ENGLISH!]

i use both F&B hand all together.

But for demonstration and consistency sake, i also tried Back hand english only.

From CCB, 12 inches close bridge, pivot 1 tip of left and right english. the same stroke direction, the same tip offset.

But when the Cue hits the CB, i can really feel that the CB deflects more with right english than left english.

Okay here is an experienced guess.

Since you are using a pivot & then attempting to stroke along that new line it would be easier for the back hand to come closer to your body than it would be for it to move away. For 'argument' sake lets just say you are doing a bit of that for both right & left englishs. If the bach hand comes a bit closer to your body for left E & you hit a hair or so closer to center then you get a bit less squirt. Now if you do the same thing for right E you get more squirt. If you are doing it for both the difference is twice as much as if you are only doing it for one.

If you are only doing it for right E you still get more squirt.

My point is that when you pivot the back hand in to your body you may be bringing it even a bit closer during the stroke.

If possible have someone video your stroke doing both right & left E & see if you notice a stoke difference or the same stroke but with your back hand is coming slightly closer to your body & the tip moving out. It only needs to be small to make the diffference.

Now tell me you are left handed & then throw this whole experienced guess out of the window. The driver's side window.:wink:

Another experiment would be to hit both right & left E with 'parallel' & see if you still notice a difference.

I hope you figure it out.

Best of Luck,

 

[pdcue]

I'm asking if there will be more deflection / squirt if we grip the cue tighter or looser with the same tip offset, same stroke, same other variables.

The simple answer is NO. If you hit the shot exactly the same.

Actually hitting two shots exactly the same, one while gripping loosley,
the other while gripping tightly, might prove to be difficult.

It might help to just think of it like this: does the Cue Ball know how
tightly you are holding the cue?

Dale

 

[ENGLISH!]

The simple answer is NO. If you hit the shot exactly the same.

Actually hitting two shots exactly the same, one while gripping loosley,
the other while gripping tightly, might prove to be difficult.

It might help to just think of it like this: does the Cue Ball know how
tightly you are holding the cue?

Dale

Dale,

Actually it's impossible unless something else also changes.

Regards,

 

[Masirib5]

Can't you just experiment with your grip pressure on different shots?

--Jeff

 

[8onthebreak]

I don't think that you can hold the cue too loose

The looser the better...when I'm playing my best pool, that baby is just laying in my hand...your brain and muscles won't allow you to keep it too loose IMO, so ...looser the better.

 

[ScottK]

Too simple actually, I answered yes above in my post, but went on to explain why I thought so.

Any thoughts on why you say no?

Physics.

While I'm tempted to stop there, the best example I can think of is Bob Meucci's Myth Destroyer (the ball striking machine he uses to compare deflection among shafts). The machine is designed to replicate the exact same strike on the cue ball every time. Do you think it matters at all how tightly he clamps down the back arm of that machine on the butt of the cue?

 

[ScottK]

Can't you just experiment with your grip pressure on different shots?

--Jeff

Not to answer his question. He only wanted to know if a tighter or looser grip on the cue would cause varying amounts of squirt. A human being cannot test for an answer to this question.

 

[CreeDo]

LD shafts change deflection, why wouldn't a soft grip as opposed to tight grip do likewise?

After all, the mechanism isn't confined to the cue stick hitting the ball. It's the cue stick and our attached hand, arm and body.

I'll bet, grip / touch will have more affect on deflection than LD shafts themselves.

I get sort of what you're thinking. The stick is designed to give a little and be 'whippy'
and flex out of the way when it hits the ball.
So maybe your grip allows the rest of the cue to give a little too, and thereby reduce deflection.

Would be interested to hear Dr. Dave's input on this.

My impression is, the whippiness only matters up to a certain point less than halfway down the
length of the shaft. Like an OB2 is only hollow up to the first 5 inches or so. And deflection isn't
affected by what sort of butt you put on the shaft, assuming the weight is consistent.

So if the bottom half and butt don't matter, probably the grip hand doesn't either.

Again that's all other things being equal.
If gripping or relaxing changes the speed of your swing or the location of the tip on the cue ball,
then yeah... different results.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Physics.

While I'm tempted to stop there, the best example I can think of is Bob Meucci's Myth Destroyer (the ball striking machine he uses to compare deflection among shafts). The machine is designed to replicate the exact same strike on the cue ball every time. Do you think it matters at all how tightly he clamps down the back arm of that machine on the butt of the cue?

If you don't mind me asking. How much physics instrution have you recieved?

What do you think would happen with that machine if the cue was connected to the swing arm by a hinging mechanism similiar to the wrist & on one 'shot' it was left loose & the next it was ratcheted down stiff. Would the hit be the same?

Regards,