GRIP QUESTION

Patrick Johnson said:
I’m not surprised you’re not answering it.

How does viewing the stroke as pushing or pulling affect what you do? How does it matter to the outcome?

pj
chgo
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I'm not surprised you responded defensively. You are in a corner right now. The reason is because you never know where good information may lead you. The same goes for bad information. You can't anticipate the future, Patrick. The best we can do is try to be as accurate as possible in the present. I thought that you, as someone I value as a member of our scientific community, would have known that and would have respect for accuracy.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
I’m not surprised you’re not answering it.

How does viewing the stroke as pushing or pulling affect what you do? How does it matter to the outcome?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
i am going to try to make an analogy here patrick
A)
the science guys believe (and i agree) that all that matters to the cue ball is where the tip hits it and the force applied
with regards to what the cue ball will do upon hitting a ball or the rail
B)
the carom players in particular believe in different strokes for different effect (and i agree)
.................................
the science guys say its just A
i believe the different"strokes" help with a feel/visualization of tempo and timing and help produce the type of force necessary for the action desired
so pushing or pulling may not matter to the outcome
but may help a person feel how to do it
jmho
icbw
 
bbb said:
...pushing or pulling may not matter to the outcome
but may help a person feel how to do it
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Of course I agree with this. But if I think I'm pushing and you think you're pulling and our different views of that help each of us, which is "correct"?

pj
chgo
 
FranCrimi said:
I'm not surprised you responded defensively. You are in a corner right now. The reason is because you never know where good information may lead you. The same goes for bad information. You can't anticipate the future, Patrick. The best we can do is try to be as accurate as possible in the present. I thought that you, as someone I value as a member of our scientific community, would have known that and would have respect for accuracy.
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Is there an answer in there somewhere? What determines which pushing/pulling view is "accurate"? How does it matter (aside from personal preference)?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
What determines which pushing/pulling view is "accurate"? How does it matter (aside from personal preference)?
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Physics. It matters because it explains what happens to the cue when you apply force to it.

Patrick Johnson said:
Tell me how it objectively matters and I might care. Until then it's "you do you".
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pagaspoling said:
So if we only focus on the cue and the force the body applies to it, not how the body applies it, its pretty obvious that the cue is being pushed. The cues center of mass is in front of the hand that applies the force. This is important because any force applied to the cue thats not in line with the mass center will result in a torque around the cues mass center and in order to keep the cue moving straight you would have to compensate this movement with more torque later in the stroke. This sounds like a something you would like to avoid to me.
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Patrick Johnson said:
How does deciding whether you're pushing or pulling change that?
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As said earlier in the thread its not the fact that the player is pushing or pulling. It's the fact that the cue is being pushed that matters. In my view it has a lot of implications on the strokes that I would like to teach and what mechanics I like my players to use.
 
pagaspoling said:
...any force applied to the cue thats not in line with the mass center will result in a torque around the cues mass center
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Patrick Johnson said:
How does deciding whether you're pushing or pulling change that?
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pagaspoling said:
As said earlier in the thread its not the fact that the player is pushing or pulling. It's the fact that the cue is being pushed that matters. In my view it has a lot of implications on the strokes that I would like to teach and what mechanics I like my players to use.
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What stroking technique applies to the cue being pushed that wouldn't apply if it's being pulled?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
What stroking technique applies to the cue being pushed that wouldn't apply if it's being pulled?
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Thats not the distinction to focus on. I think that in cue sports coaching in general theres not a lot of focus that the cue is being pushed or has weight. When you see the classic diagram of the motion of a pendulum stroke only the geometric of the stroke is considered not how the player has to apply force in order to produce that motion. A pendulum would be a good idea if the center of mass(COM) of the cue was in the players hand, with the COM in front of the hand the story is very different.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Different how? Why?
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A classic pendulum has its weight on the end of the rod or string then you can apply the force directly to the weight without producing any torque. With the weight in front of the hand the cue will want to rotate around its COM. A lot of the force you apply to the cue will not result in any cue speed and to me personally that is not efficient and will not guarantee any precision.
 
pagaspoling said:
A classic pendulum has its weight on the end of the rod or string then you can apply the force directly to the weight without producing any torque. With the weight in front of the hand the cue will want to rotate around its COM. A lot of the force you apply to the cue will not result in any cue speed and to me personally that is not efficient and will not guarantee any precision.
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What do you change?

pj
chgo
 
pagaspoling said:
As said earlier in the thread its not the fact that the player is pushing or pulling. It's the fact that the cue is being pushed that matters. In my view it has a lot of implications on the strokes that I would like to teach and what mechanics I like my players to use.
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Interesting. I woulda thought maybe there is a minute detail here or there but 'a lot of implications'?
 
pagaspoling said:
A classic pendulum has its weight on the end of the rod or string then you can apply the force directly to the weight without producing any torque. With the weight in front of the hand the cue will want to rotate around its COM. A lot of the force you apply to the cue will not result in any cue speed and to me personally that is not efficient and will not guarantee any precision.
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A lot of the force? Come on. The pivot around the COM is minor. It is just the dropping of the butt which got raised in the backswing. The effect on the tip isn't all that great bc of the fulcrum the bridge provides. It's not like it is flying up and down as a result of this rotation about the COM.
 
WobblyStroke said:
Interesting. I woulda thought maybe there is a minute detail here or there but 'a lot of implications'?
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For example: If you're trying to use a true pendulum motion your forcing the cue upwards through impact in order to undo the downwards motion you put into the cue in the early stroke forward. The geometrical modell shows a straight part through the ball put the force you put into the cue has a upwards element to it. For me thats a lot, I would like to force the cue towards the point of the cue ball I want to hit for as long as possible to me thats just to most efficient way.

WobblyStroke said:
A lot of the force? Come on. The pivot around the COM is minor. It is just the dropping of the butt which got raised in the backswing. The effect on the tip isn't all that great bc of the fulcrum the bridge provides. It's not like it is flying up and down as a result of this rotation about the COM.
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Okay.

A lot of unnecessary force is applied to the cue that not results in any cue speed and to me personally that is not efficient and will not guarantee any precision.
 
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