GRIP QUESTION

[FranCrimi]

Doubling down on a lost position as always eh Fran? You're the only one who uses words in her own special way and that's why I had to post you that anatomical movements of the wrist pic so we at least use the same language. Now you're like a kid that just learned a new word and you're using it all wrong. Not one half decent player pronates during the delivery of the stroke. That's what my response to you was about...nobody does this.

Now if we include the backswing, many players pronate passively as a loose hanging wrist that is allowed to move freely will naturally load into a pronated position in the backswing. That is kinda the point of the pronatED grip (to preset a natural load). See the suffix? Those matter. That means the pronation had already occured in the past. The position following a pronation is called a pronated position. That's what a pronated grip is....one where a pronation was performed to orient the hand a certain way, thumb-down being one of the features, and then it remains in that position and is therefore stable throughout the stroke.

It goes to show that you really don't have an understanding of pool fundamentals. You're copying old theories without asking yourself why.

No, what I described as a natural grip position has no pronation involved! LOL

Folks you have to assess what you read based on common sense. You should think about the logic behind the theory that says bending your wrist at address and then keeping it bent during the stroke, increases stability.

....And it's time to let the wobbly stroke person have the final say, lest he goes on and on and on and on. I'm done with him on pronation. LOL

 

[WobblyStroke]

It goes to show that you really don't have an understanding of pool fundamentals. You're copying old theories without asking yourself why.

No, what I described as a natural grip position has no pronation involved! LOL

Folks you have to assess what you read based on common sense. You should think about the logic behind the theory that says bending your wrist at address and then keeping it bent during the stroke, increases stability.

....And it's time to let the wobbly stroke person have the final say, lest he goes on and on and on and on. I'm done with him on pronation. LOL

thank you for confirming that u have no idea what a pronation is. there is no bending. Please referto the diagram I posted in post 22. The one labeled 'pronation' sure does look a helluva lot like a natural position used by many players to grip the cue in....cuz it is, tho u can get the same look without actually pronating.

A pronated grip has long been taught and is employed by a lot of players. It is taught by every snooker coach I've seen and Barry Stark, a highly respected coach who has worked with the likes of Karen Corr, teaches it. I linked his video in post 23. He gives a fantastic overview, which u obviously didnt bother to watch cuz rather than learn anything u prefer to just argue against ur own misconceptions rooted in ur refusal to learn what words actually mean.

You don't understand the most basic terminology when it comes to describing movement. How can u even participate in a discussion relating to anatomy? LOL.

FWIW know-nothing numpties like you getting 'master'instructor acreditation and actually teaching other instructors was one of the main motivations for me converting the book on movement I was working on to one just focused on pool strokes...including a couple of strokes that people with no understanding of human movement (like u) mistakenly believe are only for people who have been playing that way since childhood. The pool instruction industry deserves better. You have no clue what u are talking about.

 

[pagaspoling]

One more Fran vs Wobbly nonsense discussion. This will help so many players understand our game better!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you two should talk in PMs until you solved your dispute instead of destroying every thread in here.

 

[WobblyStroke]

One more Fran vs Wobbly nonsense discussion. This will help so many players understand our game better!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you two should talk in PMs until you solved your dispute instead of destroying every thread in here.

My posts on pronated grips were pretty informative. Hers were wrong bc she refuses to learn what words mean. And for the record, this makes 3 total such disputes.

 

[pagaspoling]

Yeah pretty but I still don't understand what you mean or how do you define the pronated grip. You have the capacity to use a more detailed language but you don't and then you complain that others are not using the terms correctly. Can you define the following questions?

How many degrees from natural is a typical pronated grip in you definition?

Is there any flexion or extension of the wrist present and how is that affecting forearm rotation?

Is there any ulnar or radial deviation present and does that affect forearm rotation?

What movements of the arm and forearm is happening through the stroke?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Should there be a space between
the V part of the skin between the thumb and index finger
or should the cue touch that part of your hand?

Hey, Larry, did your question pretty much get answered?

 

[WobblyStroke]

Yeah pretty but I still don't understand what you mean or how do you define the pronated grip. You have the capacity to use a more detailed language but you don't and then you complain that others are not using the terms correctly. Can you define the following questions?

How many degrees from natural is a typical pronated grip in you definition?

Is there any flexion or extension of the wrist present and how is that affecting forearm rotation?

Is there any ulnar or radial deviation present and does that affect forearm rotation?

What movements of the arm and forearm is happening through the stroke?

watch the linked barry stark vids i posted in post #23. it is a 4 part series. comprehensive overview...which saves me a lot of writing given his overview totals nearly 40min. vid3 that is actually linked has a lot of goodies in it.

good questions. One of the reasoms I spoke more in general terms regarding pronated grips is bc they can vary quite a bit and many styles of stroke and even overall grip concept can have a component of pronation to them.

Barry Stark teaches a detailed grip in the vids as he keeps reiterating throughout....this is one way and there are many. Many different grips have a pronation component to them and the answers to all ur questions can pretty much be 'it depemds...'. Just like there are many versions of a thumb-down grip, pronated grips (which are pretty much alll thumb down) will also have a lot of variety to them. Grips can be tight or loose, on few or all fingers, have a V gap or not (the long forgotten original thread topic lol). All these variations may have different answers to ur questions. But I'll give ur questions a go anyway. short version: it depends .

1 The degree of pronation will vary player to player depending on their stance angle and orientation of their shoulder as all of these work together to determine the orientation of the hand. Orcollo's grip disxussed earlier is an example of a pretty obvious maximum pronation due to its signature palm-back look with back fingers coming off the cue. Tho one can be maximally pronated and not have the fingers coming off the cue depending on their stance angle.

2. As the degree of pronation increases, the degree of wrist extension also tends to increase, just as their opposites, suppination and flexion tend to increase together. They don't have to but these are the natural tendencies and the pairs often occur together.

3. There can be. RD and UD don't affect forearm rotation and wlil occur in the plane they are put in by the rotation. In general, elbow droppers will have UD in follow through as the cue is kept level while the forearm goes past 90degrees . this UD is passive and doesnt need to be performed deliberately...Barry mentions this in vids too.

4. a wide variety of options are available here. many different strokes and cue delivery styles work well with pronated grips.

 

[bbb]

Hey, Larry, did your question pretty much get answered?

that horse left the barn .
i think it took a pronated turn at the fork in the road.....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...many styles of stroke and even overall grip concept can have a component of pronation to them.

To be sure I understand you, is this correct?

A non-pronated grip has the palm of the grip hand parallel with the cue. A pronated grip has the palm of the grip hand rotated (at least a little) more perpendicular to the cue.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

To be sure I understand you, is this correct?

A non-pronated grip has the palm of the grip hand parallel with the cue. A pronated grip has the palm of the grip hand rotated (at least a little) more perpendicular to the cue.

pj
chgo

For my own understanding
i will answer
and let the experts correct me
if the ulnar bone and radial bone are in line and parralel to the cue
i call that neutral
if the radial bone and ulnar bone are in line inwards from this parrallel line from rotation
thats a pronated grip
ie
the palm has rotated inwards
which would make it orient alittl more backwards
its sounds sophisticated but its a common way to grip the cue
jmho

 

[Patrick Johnson]

For my own understanding
i will answer
and let the experts correct me
if the ulnar bone and radial bone are in line and parralel to the cue
i call that neutral
if the radial bone and ulnar bone are in line inwards from this parrallel line from rotation
thats a pronated grip
ie
the palm has rotated inwards
which would make it orient alittl more backwards
its sounds sophisticated but its a common way to grip the cue
jmho

I don't follow those anatomical descriptions, but here's another way to describe it...

If you're right handed and holding the cue with your forearm vertical in a loosely closed grip, your palm is parallel with the cue and facing your body. From that position you rotate your hand counterclockwise (thumb toward your body, little finger away from it) to pronate it, turning the palm so it's no longer parallel with the cue but now faces (at least a little) to the rear.

Are we on the same page?

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

To be sure I understand you, is this correct?

A non-pronated grip has the palm of the grip hand parallel with the cue. A pronated grip has the palm of the grip hand rotated (at least a little) more perpendicular to the cue.

pj
chgo

Not quite that simple.

The palm back ones are definitely pronated to a large degree as that is pretty much the only way to get that appearance.

However, it is also possible to be very pronated and have the same look as a completely neutral hang depending on other stroke components that affect hand position. I touched on this in a previous post regarding Alison Fisher's grip. Based on appearance, the best I can do is say she probably pronates due to her snooker background and the prevelance of this technique in the snooker world. However because of the interplay of several components of setups in determining the orientation of the hand, several different combinations can result in the same appearance.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

…it is also possible to be very pronated and have the same look as a completely neutral hang depending on other stroke components that affect hand position.

Pronating means rotating the forearm - I don’t see how you can do that and keep a “completely natural hang”.

But my attention span is shorter than your explanatory posts, so I’ll probably never know.

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Pronating means rotating the forearm - I don’t see how you can do that and keep a “completely natural hang”.

But my attention span is shorter than your explanatory posts, so I’ll probably never know.

pj
chgo

3 things determine hand orientation in combination with one another. a rotation hhere can offset one there. same look different ways.

dont worry i will edit the textwall away. ppl can wait for the book to see detailed explanations.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

i will edit the textwall away.

If you mean delete what you’ve already posted, please don’t on my account. I’d hate to be the reason info goes away.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

One more Fran vs Wobbly nonsense discussion. This will help so many players understand our game better!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you two should talk in PMs until you solved your dispute instead of destroying every thread in here.

Hey buddy, I'm not the one who's unclear. Pick a body part --- Forearm? Wrist? Whatever you like. It starts with the rotation of the forearm and affects the wrist position. If you want an explanation, you might try asking the snooker players. It seems to be popular with some of them. For what reason? Beats me. It makes sense in golf because the swing is a rotational swing and your arms are swinging in front of you and around you. I guess in a pool stroke, you'd have to adjust something if you want to hold on to the cue with your thumb and index finger all the way through the stroke, or flick it just at impact. But the question that doesn't get answered here is, is it necessary? I've already given my opinion on that.

 

[bbb]

I don't follow those anatomical descriptions, but here's another way to describe it...

If you're right handed and holding the cue with your forearm vertical in a loosely closed grip, your palm is parallel with the cue and facing your body. From that position you rotate your hand counterclockwise (thumb toward your body, little finger away from it) to pronate it, turning the palm so it's no longer parallel with the cue but now faces (at least a little) to the rear.

Are we on the same page?

pj
chgo

View attachment 711230

Pronating means rotating the forearm - I don’t see how you can do that and keep a “completely natural hang”.

But my attention span is shorter than your explanatory posts, so I’ll probably never know.

pj
chgo

yes we are on the same page (wrong or right...)
if you can imagine a very muscular body builder
they tend to have internally rotated soulders due to tight pecs among other reasons and their palms tend to point backward rather than neutral
when your shoulder internally rotates
your forearm will passively go along for the ride
so a natural hang forearm will turn inward /palm will point from sideways towards backwards yet still be in a "natural hang" position
because of the rotation of the upperarm/shoulder
wobbly can comment how right or wrong this is

 

[WobblyStroke]

yes we are on the same page (wrong or right...)
if you can imagine a very muscular body builder
they tend to have internally rotated soulders due to tight pecs among other reasons and their palms tend to point backward rather than neutral
when your shoulder internally rotates
your forearm will passively go along for the ride
so a natural hang forearm will turn inward /palm will point from sideways towards backwards yet still be in a "natural hang" position
because of the rotation of the upperarm/shoulder
wobbly can comment how right or wrong this is

Right
And if one externally rotates the shoulder a neutral hang in the arm will have the palm forward. from this position, a pronation restores the original look of a neutral hang but u got there with 2 offsetting rotations. same look different ways.

A low stance with a straight back tends to bring the shoulders back aka external rotation and some amount of pronation offsets this shoulder move.

Different amounts of either of the rotations make the hand hang at a certain angle relative to the body. People naturally differ in their defaults and that is why not all natural hangs are at the same angle.

If u follow Bert Kinister's alignment finding method centered around finding where ur hang points the cue and build ur stance in accordance with that then you simply build ur stance around that cue angle. If u prefer a certain stance angle, you can fine tune where you hang with shouĺder and forearm rotations to match the angle u want.

 

[bbb]

Right
And if one externally rotates the shoulder a neutral hang in the arm will have the palm forward. from this position, a pronation restores the original look of a neutral hang but u got there with 2 offsetting rotations. same look different ways.

A low stance with a straight back tends to bring the shoulders back aka external rotation and some amount of pronation offsets this shoulder move.

little by little
i am beginning to understand you...........

 

[dquarasr]

little by little
i am beginning to understand you...........

His ideas are not pulled out of his, um, arse. They are well-considered and scientifically based.

Unless his arse can promote a natural stroke, then he’d be all over it.