my screen name is row21097. fyi that is 1/2 marathon in meters. the primary muscles are LEGS and back. I have a c2 in my house and all of my children have one as well. google it.
Bert
hammer stroke
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
my screen name is row21097. fyi that is 1/2 marathon in meters. the primary muscles are LEGS and back. I have a c2 in my house and all of my children have one as well. google it.
Bert
I have one as well, but I don't use it as much as I used to. The leg burn is about as good as it gets, though. Never been in a racing scull, but I've rowed all kinds of pulling boats. Without the sliding seat they are mostly a back and shoulder work out.
Funny how folks just assume that whenever you bend your arm that the biceps is doing all the work. CJ is right, the biceps is a relatively weak "show" muscle. I used to do three sets of 60# bench curls when I was young, but the max I could ever curl for a single rep was about 80#. I could do wrist curls over 100# at the time, so my tiny looking wrists were 25% stronger. I haven't been inside a gym in ten years and I'd be lucky to even curl 50# now, but I'll bet my wrists are still almost as strong as ever. Wrists kick ass over the biceps any day unless you specifically target the biceps.
BTW English, it's the back and shoulders doing most of the work when drawing a bow as well, at least if your doing it right. So, I guess you picked some pretty poor examples, don't you think? Lol
The golf swing was not what I thought it was (by watching Pro Golfers),
What I've come to understand is how someone plays is often not how they appear to play. That's one of the reasons it's so difficult to "copy" a player....trying to match how they "appear" to do things to how they "feel" they do things, to how they systematically do things......this is like the "modeling "Trifecta".
I trained with Hank Haney for over 2 years on my golf game and he really drove home these points. The golf swing was not what I thought it was (by watching Pro Golfers), and Hank had broken it down into 4 separate components. These major aspects of the swing were the wrists cocking, the arms raising, the shoulders turning and the hips coiling......all the time keeping the club on the correct swing plane.
This was very difficult, but through the training it enabled me to see the pool game in the same manner and it's much simpler physically. I still think pool is tougher mentally than golf, but physically there's no comparison. There is a lot of similarities between golf and pool in relationship to the hands/wrists/forearms and how they work together.
What I've come to understand is how someone plays is often not how they appear to play. That's one of the reasons it's so difficult to "copy" a player....trying to match how they "appear" to do things to how they "feel" they do things, to how they systematically do things......this is like the "modeling "Trifecta".
I trained with Hank Haney for over 2 years on my golf game and he really drove home these points. The golf swing was not what I thought it was (by watching Pro Golfers), and Hank had broken it down into 4 separate components. These major aspects of the swing were the wrists cocking, the arms raising, the shoulders turning and the hips coiling......all the time keeping the club on the correct swing plane.
This was very difficult, but through the training it enabled me to see the pool game in the same manner and it's much simpler physically. I still think pool is tougher mentally than golf, but physically there's no comparison. There is a lot of similarities between golf and pool in relationship to the hands/wrists/forearms and how they work together.
BTW English, it's the back and shoulders doing most of the work when drawing a bow as well, at least if your doing it right. So, I guess you picked some pretty poor examples, don't you think? Lol
Perhaps, I really did not give it a lot of thought.
Those were the first & only two(2) sports that came quickly into mind where pulling into ones body was involved vs extending out & away.
Can you think of other sports were pulling into ones body with the arms is one of if not the primary function?
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I learned this from my martial arts instructor about 5 summers ago.
That's right, I learned this from my martial arts instructor about 5 summers ago. I started lifting a lot of weights with a football coach, and even though I got stronger the biceps started getting in the way of my weapons training and I started going down and losing my my ability to move weapons.....I was less flexible, less fluid, and robotic as a result.....I pretty much quit trying to play pool at my highest level and it showed.
My pool game really suffered, I lost to John S. and couldn't give up the handicaps that I could before the increased strength. I just experienced this again in Tunica getting up to 211, although I wasn't lifting weights the extra weight traumatized my pool game.
That's when he pointed out that the biceps muscle was for decoration and actually got in the way. I discontinued all biceps training right away and within 3 weeks things was much better, speed and flexibility started to increase, and my pool stroke improved.
Through this process I got first hand experience what muscles are useful and which ones aren't for pool. I stopped lifting weights soon after that and will never make that mistake again. Lifting more than your own body weight (through push ups and pull ups etc) is unnecessary for optimum health, speed and flexibility.
[/IMG]
I have one as well, but I don't use it as much as I used to. The leg burn is about as good as it gets, though. Never been in a racing scull, but I've rowed all kinds of pulling boats. Without the sliding seat they are mostly a back and shoulder work out.
Funny how folks just assume that whenever you bend your arm that the biceps is doing all the work. CJ is right, the biceps is a relatively weak "show" muscle. I used to do three sets of 60# bench curls when I was young, but the max I could ever curl for a single rep was about 80#. I could do wrist curls over 100# at the time, so my tiny looking wrists were 25% stronger. I haven't been inside a gym in ten years and I'd be lucky to even curl 50# now, but I'll bet my wrists are still almost as strong as ever. Wrists kick ass over the biceps any day unless you specifically target the biceps.
BTW English, it's the back and shoulders doing most of the work when drawing a bow as well, at least if your doing it right. So, I guess you picked some pretty poor examples, don't you think? Lol
That's right, I learned this from my martial arts instructor about 5 summers ago. I started lifting a lot of weights with a football coach, and even though I got stronger the biceps started getting in the way of my weapons training and I started going down and losing my my ability to move weapons.....I was less flexible, less fluid, and robotic as a result.....I pretty much quit trying to play pool at my highest level and it showed.
My pool game really suffered, I lost to John S. and couldn't give up the handicaps that I could before the increased strength. I just experienced this again in Tunica getting up to 211, although I wasn't lifting weights the extra weight traumatized my pool game.
That's when he pointed out that the biceps muscle was for decoration and actually got in the way. I discontinued all biceps training right away and within 3 weeks things was much better, speed and flexibility started to increase, and my pool stroke improved.
Through this process I got first hand experience what muscles are useful and which ones aren't for pool. I stopped lifting weights soon after that and will never make that mistake again. Lifting more than your own body weight (through push ups and pull ups etc) is unnecessary for optimum health, speed and flexibility.
[/IMG]
You make lots of comparisons to golf, a game which I never played seriously. However, I do see this inability to really see what is going on with my fly casting students.
Most folks see a guy making a forward cast with a fly line and to them it looks like you are throwing the line out there, like you do with a weighted lure or sinker. The action looks similar to spin casting, but the physics and biomechanics are completely opposite.
For one, the fly you are casting weighs next to nothing compared to a fishing lure. With spin casting you are using the leverage of the rod to accelerate a weighted object to high speed. When you release your finger from the line at the correct time, the heavy lure goes sailing out to the target, dragging along the almost weightless monofilament line with it.
In a fly cast, you throwing a weighted line to drag along an almost weightless fly. The line is propelled forward while the fly just goes along for the ride. The main difference is in how the line is accelerated, and that difference is in the timing. It is a felt thing (as in requiring the sensory input of the fingers, hand, arm, shoulder, hips, legs, and feet) and is very difficult to break down and describe like you did with the golf swing. If you blow the timing, maybe push a little too hard or not hard enough through the stroke, the tip will not travel in a straight line and you will get very poor results.
The hardest habit I have to break is with guys who have done a lot of conventional bait or spin casting and have the habit of applying a lot of force at the end of the casting stroke. With a fly cast, the line has already accelerated as fast as it will go by the time you are ready to finish the stroke. All you are supposed to do is to stop motion as abruptly as possible. This causes a tight loop to form in the line, and the rest of the line (already in motion, but behind you) just rolls over the top until it is straight, then falls gently to the water.
Muscling the cast at the very end not only fails to improve the cast, it actually kills it. And yet, I will see over and over a guy finally getting down the timing as he does his practices casts (termed "false casting") back and forth before the final forward cast, only to ruin the cast by attempting to throw the line like a regular lure at the very end. By doing this, he tightens up his entire upper body and arms and then lets loose at the end. What he should be doing is the exact opposite. Deliver a forward cast exactly the same as all the practice casts - with a fluid and relaxed forward motion - and then to slightly firm up the grip at the end of the stroke, effectively inducing what some call a "power snap" (yes, a very unfortunate choice of words, I never use that term with my students), which stops the rod and allows the formation of the essential loop.
Sound familiar to you, CJ? It should, because it very closely resembles the final wrist action in your pool stroke.
Anyway, this is just one example I could think of where things are very different from what they appear to be on the surface. And just like in pool, some guys can be very resistant to attempts to correct the stroke. I tell newbies to just feel for the "tug" - the pull of the line as it reaches the end of it's travel - before they attempt to change direction of the line. Best case scenario if they don't is they end up with a "tailing loop" which kills the cast completely and causes it to fall to the water beside you. Worst case is like with my buddy, who after watching me for a while, got it in his head that he just needed to "wave it back and forth" and ended up with 40' of fly line tangled around his head and a size 12 dry fly embedded in his ear.
Lucky for him I always use barbless flies.
You make lots of comparisons to golf, a game which I never played seriously. However, I do see this inability to really see what is going on with my fly casting students.
Most folks see a guy making a forward cast with a fly line and to them it looks like you are throwing the line out there, like you do with a weighted lure or sinker. The action looks similar to spin casting, but the physics and biomechanics are completely opposite.
For one, the fly you are casting weighs next to nothing compared to a fishing lure. With spin casting you are using the leverage of the rod to accelerate a weighted object to high speed. When you release your finger from the line at the correct time, the heavy lure goes sailing out to the target, dragging along the almost weightless monofilament line with it.
In a fly cast, you throwing a weighted line to drag along an almost weightless fly. The line is propelled forward while the fly just goes along for the ride. The main difference is in how the line is accelerated, and that difference is in the timing. It is a felt thing (as in requiring the sensory input of the fingers, hand, arm, shoulder, hips, legs, and feet) and is very difficult to break down and describe like you did with the golf swing. If you blow the timing, maybe push a little too hard or not hard enough through the stroke, the tip will not travel in a straight line and you will get very poor results.
The hardest habit I have to break is with guys who have done a lot of conventional bait or spin casting and have the habit of applying a lot of force at the end of the casting stroke. With a fly cast, the line has already accelerated as fast as it will go by the time you are ready to finish the stroke. All you are supposed to do is to stop motion as abruptly as possible. This causes a tight loop to form in the line, and the rest of the line (already in motion, but behind you) just rolls over the top until it is straight, then falls gently to the water.
Muscling the cast at the very end not only fails to improve the cast, it actually kills it. And yet, I will see over and over a guy finally getting down the timing as he does his practices casts (termed "false casting") back and forth before the final forward cast, only to ruin the cast by attempting to throw the line like a regular lure at the very end. By doing this, he tightens up his entire upper body and arms and then lets loose at the end. What he should be doing is the exact opposite. Deliver a forward cast exactly the same as all the practice casts - with a fluid and relaxed forward motion - and then to slightly firm up the grip at the end of the stroke, effectively inducing what some call a "power snap" (yes, a very unfortunate choice of words, I never use that term with my students), which stops the rod and allows the formation of the essential loop.
Sound familiar to you, CJ? It should, because it very closely resembles the final wrist action in your pool stroke.
Anyway, this is just one example I could think of where things are very different from what they appear to be on the surface. And just like in pool, some guys can be very resistant to attempts to correct the stroke. I tell newbies to just feel for the "tug" - the pull of the line as it reaches the end of it's travel - before they attempt to change direction of the line. Best case scenario if they don't is they end up with a "tailing loop" which kills the cast completely and causes it to fall to the water beside you. Worst case is like with my buddy, who after watching me for a while, got it in his head that he just needed to "wave it back and forth" and ended up with 40' of fly line tangled around his head and a size 12 dry fly embedded in his ear.
Lucky for him I always use barbless flies.
I am only a novice fly fisherman but I think your fly fishing to pool stroke analogy is spot on. Tempo / feel / timing and finish.
In the rowing community erg (unit of mechanical work) is also an acronym for evil rowing gadget. In my family we refer to a workout on the C2 as having intercourse with the erg.
good luck
bert
When one rows a Whitehall for 10 miles on a choppy bay, he will quickly become all too familiar with exactly which muscles are used in rowing said boat.
I suggest you look it up and become an Internet expert in yet one more field.
That bolded part is yet another example of "the devil made me do it." "It's YOUR fault I'm posting so much, folks, so I'd suggest you stop feeding me."
<sigh>
-Sean
I think rebounding in bball or grappling techniques would use the biceps. How about pitching softball and swinging a bat?
Best,
Mike
Well, at least I know what he looks like now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7SkrYF8lCU&list=TLldEUlizOptc
Hi Mike,
Yeah, pulling a basket ball into ones body would involve contracting the arms.
Yes, holding another to one's self would involve pulling into one's body, that is until you get on top of them & are pushing them into the ground
I don't really see pitching a softball or swinging a bat involving the bicepts much at all ecept the pulling of the glove into ones body & until the bat is pulled back in the follow through to keep it from flying forward from the extension of it during the swing hopefully into the ball.
But as Dennis Miller so often says, 'I could be wrong'.
My point was to differentiate between the use of the triceps (extending & opening the arm) & the use of the bicepts (pulling & closing the arm) & that in 'most' sports & athletic activities the triceps are more involved for the intended purpose of away form on's body & not into one's body, but not all purposes.
I think you knew that.
Best,
Rick
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I fell in love with the C2 many years ago in the gym. I used to love to watch those "calories" pile up on the digital readout. My personal trainer used to get pissed off because I'd blow my energy wad on the rower and wouldn't have enough juice left for the free weights. He was trying to make a power lifter out of me, but all I wanted to do was get in good shape for martial arts.
I never tried to develop good rowing form on the C2, and I even used to work out other muscles (yes, like the biceps) by the way I'd pull on the handle. When the gym closed their doors I tried to buy one of their machines but they were gone by the time I got there. I missed several good deals on them over the years, and finally scored a Model D in perfect condition for $500.
That was when I found out I had gotten too fat for a sliding seat rower. Now, if I could lose enough weight to make the machine more comfortable to row with, I could get in better shape and lose even more weight. Best way to lose that initial weight would be on the C2, but I'm too... well, you can probably understand my dilemma. lol
So, yeah, I suppose you could work out the biceps on a C2, but then it wouldn't resemble rowing anymore, so...
Mike,
But the ball is nearly gone in an underhand softball pitch when the arm starts to close & that pulling of the arm closed at the last moments of contact can not have any effect on what the ball does.:wink:
You must be of the new school hitters that shortens the radius with 'alligator arms' instead of extending it out in front. I taught both of my son's & others how to time & swing the bat & both of my sons as well as others that I taught were all star players with high averages & home run hitters. They are still doing it in softball. But...that is a topic for another forum.
Yes, rock climbing & water skiing do involve pulling in towards one's body but neither involve propelling a ball away from one's body by either throwing or hitting a ball. That was the point I was trying to make.
Bicepts 'pull' the hand toward the body & triceps 'push' the hand away from the body. Many if not 'most', but I would think 'most', athletic endeavors involve extending the hand away from the body, especially those that involve a ball, except when one is 'receiving', catching or taking in the ball.
Again, I think you knew that.
That was all that I was trying to say. I guess I should have just said it & kept my post count down.
Best,
Rick
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http://i29.tinypic.com/2m6oox3.gif
Actually there is a small portion of the swing that does utilize the biceps in the unloading phase. Note Bonds' rear arm just before contact. You can demonstrate this by pushing on any object with the palm of your hand with your fingers pointing to the ground.
Congrats on your boys' baseball careers. I was a hitting coach for many of my son's teammates, too. He was the 3 and 4 hole hitter and they went on to win state. He hit a home run in the championship game. Then the next year he quit
and took up kickboxing. Don't ask me...
Best,
Mike
Actually there is a small portion of the swing that does utilize the biceps in the unloading phase. Note Bonds' rear arm just before contact. You can demonstrate this by pushing on any object with the palm of your hand with your fingers pointing to the ground.
Congrats on your boys' baseball careers. I was a hitting coach for many of my son's teammates, too. He was the 3 and 4 hole hitter and they went on to win state. He hit a home run in the championship game. Then the next year he quit
and took up kickboxing. Don't ask me... Best,
Mike
http://i29.tinypic.com/2m6oox3.gif
Actually there is a small portion of the swing that does utilize the biceps in the unloading phase. Note Bonds' rear arm just before contact. You can demonstrate this by pushing on any object with the palm of your hand with your fingers pointing to the ground.
Congrats on your boys' baseball careers. I was a hitting coach for many of my son's teammates, too. He was the 3 and 4 hole hitter and they went on to win state. He hit a home run in the championship game. Then the next year he quit
Best,
Mike
Thanks Mike.
My oldest son was on a City Middle School Championship Team when I was head coach & my 2nd. son won a couple of City Playground & City All Star Championships & a State Title. They always batted in the 3, 4, or 5 hole slot too & they were catchers & pitchers.
My oldest went into Golf & my 2nd. went into football & made LSU's team as a walk-on. My oldest won a City Football Championship before going into High school golf. He says that that is probably one of his greatest regrets. I guess he was just a bit burned out.
They both were Playground All Star basketball players too.
I guess you can tell that I'm a 'proud' father. But what I am most proud of is that my oldest son has won sportsmanship awards as a child, as a teenager, & as an adult & they both graduated high school with honors. My oldest is a CPA with a Masters Degree & my 2nd. is sitting for his CPA.
My daughter was an all star softball player too & she has a Masters degree as well.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reflect back to what were some very good times.
Best,
Rick
PS My 2nd. son's HS football team lost in the semi finals of State playoffs his senior year when he played every down at middle linebacker plus the kickoff & punt teams.
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."Free Will" is a Wonderful Present, It just needs to be Unwrapped with Care
Yes, this does sound familiar, and that's what makes Life so deceptive, things are usually NOT as they appear - as a matter of fact they're sometimes the opposite. Maybe that's why we "park" on the driveway and "drive" on the parkway.
This is certainly true with pool (and golf), you can learn what's logical OR you can choose to learn what's effective....."Free Will" is a Wonderful Present, {the}"Now" just needs to be Unwrapped with Care ........ 'The Game is my Teacher'
You make lots of comparisons to golf, a game which I never played seriously. However, I do see this inability to really see what is going on with my fly casting students.
Most folks see a guy making a forward cast with a fly line and to them it looks like you are throwing the line out there, like you do with a weighted lure or sinker. The action looks similar to spin casting, but the physics and biomechanics are completely opposite.
For one, the fly you are casting weighs next to nothing compared to a fishing lure. With spin casting you are using the leverage of the rod to accelerate a weighted object to high speed. When you release your finger from the line at the correct time, the heavy lure goes sailing out to the target, dragging along the almost weightless monofilament line with it.
In a fly cast, you throwing a weighted line to drag along an almost weightless fly. The line is propelled forward while the fly just goes along for the ride. The main difference is in how the line is accelerated, and that difference is in the timing. It is a felt thing (as in requiring the sensory input of the fingers, hand, arm, shoulder, hips, legs, and feet) and is very difficult to break down and describe like you did with the golf swing. If you blow the timing, maybe push a little too hard or not hard enough through the stroke, the tip will not travel in a straight line and you will get very poor results.
The hardest habit I have to break is with guys who have done a lot of conventional bait or spin casting and have the habit of applying a lot of force at the end of the casting stroke. With a fly cast, the line has already accelerated as fast as it will go by the time you are ready to finish the stroke. All you are supposed to do is to stop motion as abruptly as possible. This causes a tight loop to form in the line, and the rest of the line (already in motion, but behind you) just rolls over the top until it is straight, then falls gently to the water.
Muscling the cast at the very end not only fails to improve the cast, it actually kills it. And yet, I will see over and over a guy finally getting down the timing as he does his practices casts (termed "false casting") back and forth before the final forward cast, only to ruin the cast by attempting to throw the line like a regular lure at the very end. By doing this, he tightens up his entire upper body and arms and then lets loose at the end. What he should be doing is the exact opposite. Deliver a forward cast exactly the same as all the practice casts - with a fluid and relaxed forward motion - and then to slightly firm up the grip at the end of the stroke, effectively inducing what some call a "power snap" (yes, a very unfortunate choice of words, I never use that term with my students), which stops the rod and allows the formation of the essential loop.
Sound familiar to you, CJ? It should, because it very closely resembles the final wrist action in your pool stroke.
Anyway, this is just one example I could think of where things are very different from what they appear to be on the surface. And just like in pool, some guys can be very resistant to attempts to correct the stroke. I tell newbies to just feel for the "tug" - the pull of the line as it reaches the end of it's travel - before they attempt to change direction of the line. Best case scenario if they don't is they end up with a "tailing loop" which kills the cast completely and causes it to fall to the water beside you. Worst case is like with my buddy, who after watching me for a while, got it in his head that he just needed to "wave it back and forth" and ended up with 40' of fly line tangled around his head and a size 12 dry fly embedded in his ear.
Lucky for him I always use barbless flies.
Yes, this does sound familiar, and that's what makes Life so deceptive, things are usually NOT as they appear - as a matter of fact they're sometimes the opposite. Maybe that's why we "park" on the driveway and "drive" on the parkway.
This is certainly true with pool (and golf), you can learn what's logical OR you can choose to learn what's effective....."Free Will" is a Wonderful Present, {the}"Now" just needs to be Unwrapped with Care ........ 'The Game is my Teacher'
That's quite an impressive list of accomplishments. I know from experience that dad was there every step of the way.
Grandkids need a coach, too!My son will probably not be going back to school this year and will be working in the family business. He'll be competing in a few national level tourneys in 2014 and I may join him...in a different division, of course. I let him know when we spar that I haven't taught him everything I know to keep him on his best behavior.
They grow up too fast!
Best,
Mike
Yes, this does sound familiar, and that's what makes Life so deceptive, things are usually NOT as they appear - as a matter of fact they're sometimes the opposite. Maybe that's why we "park" on the driveway and "drive" on the parkway.
This is certainly true with pool (and golf), you can learn what's logical OR you can choose to learn what's effective....."Free Will" is a Wonderful Present, {the}"Now" just needs to be Unwrapped with Care ........ 'The Game is my Teacher'
That's why I like to think that starting out in pool, a player needs a good instructor to refine their mechanics and then move on to a high caliber player as a mentor.
There are many instructors who are both and it's a real plus to be lucky enough to find them...before your back and eyes go out! :smile:
Best,
Mike