Handicapping has ruined the SPORT!

[raise1]

It isn't ruining pool, but it has ruined gambling among the better players.

I totally disagree.

The majority of gambling done at the DCC - and other places such as Tunica, US Open - were based on handicapping. Same thing in the Phillipines, the pool gambling capital of the world. Some of the biggest gamblings in recent history in the US are based on handicaps.

The few heads-up gambling done in recent years that I can remember between big names are:

1/ Bartram/Roberts
2/ Morra/Bennette
3/ Morra/Watson
4/ Roberts/Hall
5/ Dominguez/Bennette
6/ John/Harriman

That's pretty much about it.

There are a ton more gambling matches happen where handicaps were involved.

Sure, some of you SAY here that you would prefer to play straight up, even though you're dead money, because you love the game and want to improve. But let's be honest here. How many major events - where the best pros play - would you be willing to play and donate? 1, 2, 3 per year, year in year out????

Without handicapping, pool would be dead. Gambling would be dead too, since gambling and pool are like french fries and ketchup.

There's a reason why all leagues such as BCAPL, APA, ACS, etc... are doing well. They're based on handicap.

 

[David Marcus]

Correct !

Doc, the APA 5's would not be driven to become A players if you took away their trophies and patches. They'd simply lose more often, feel bad about their game, and just play less pool.
You'd have fewer C players, but you wouldn't have more A's and B's.

You tell me - do you know a SINGLE player at the A or B level who decided to get good at pool so he could enter and win certain tournaments?

I don't. Players at that level get there because of some internal force, some deep interest in getting good at the game. Who knows what motivates them. But it's not some specific tournament, or a dollar-store trophy.

Those future A's and B's will get there regardless of what tournaments are available.
And those APA 5's who are happy with their current level?
No outside force (like a tournament) will give them the drive to get better,
that has to come from within.

You are CORRECT !!

Don't confuse Tournament Win with Respect. The real question is " How much does winning a handicapped tournament matter compared to winning a NON-handicapped tournament?" It's about the purity of the SPORT, feel free to handicap while gambling, but a REAL tournament should be about who is the BEST!

It's a matter of respect for those that respect the game. It's not about the trophy, or the cash for that matter. That's the whole point...

"You tell me - do you know a SINGLE player at the A or B level who decided to get good at pool so he could enter and win certain tournaments? I don't. Players at that level get there because of some internal force, some deep interest in getting good at game.Who knows what motivates them. But it's not some specific tournament, or a dollar-store trophy."

 

[Scratch~]

I am pretty new to the sport (yeah I called it a sport!) and learn from everyone I play. Generally though, a lot of the heavier players wont play me unless I have cash, and since I'm not just going to give it away, I tend to only get to or will play them in a tournament.
Call me frugal, or cheap, or what ever you want but you wont call me penniless!!

Now, I get in this tournament and play guys that have 10, 20, 30, or more years compared to my yearn and half. I'm a 4 or a C and this cat is a 7 million and part of the alphabet laymen's don't even use!! What chance do I have you ask? Well, since I get a handicap I have more of a chance than without. Generally I get matched up to a guy that can break and run and all I can do is watch. <There is your watching and learning part>

Sometimes I do get to shoot, ah the glorious feel of being matched up with a guy that could shoot the balls off a gnat at 400 yards with his 150 year old what ever cue made by some long dead ancestor of a master cue maker. They are usually worth more than my truck. I step up, assess the situation, and realize if I have any hope at all I need to try and safe the guy because I can't make that 20 rail kick into a 5 ball combo.
So I safe, it's a good safe, I see it and there is no way out of it, it's fail proof.

Until superman with his museum quality cue swoops in, kicks out of it like it was nothing. He obviously see's something I couldn't even fathom 15 seconds before, and mysteriously makes balls ethereal at will and pots the OB.

I learn to look at how ever he got out and try and make it more secure the next time.

The only time I could ever learn anything like that would be for $10 a game ... I love pool and love to play .. but the way you are going to get $10 a game out of me is if you give me enough weight to make it worth it. I mean really ... if I just wanted to stand around and watch someone play all the while dishing out cash, I would get pay per view and watch Rayes or someone and sit on my couch.

 

[Banks]

If I wasn't already into pool, this kind of attitude would have kept me from starting. Luckily, I was around people that just enjoyed the game and simply wanted others to enjoy it, too.

Edit: That's what I'll always thank the apa for.

 

[BWColeman]

Old school vs New

When I first started reading this thread , I admit I was ready to jump on the band wagon and agree handicapping is ruining the game. Luckily I kept reading and took a step back and really thought about it.

I have been away from the pool scene for quite a few years, probably 18-20 years since I played what I call serious pool ( high stakes Gambling) I still played in a few tournaments here and there over the years some small local room tourneys and some larger events that drew out the big guns.

Theses were all non handicap tournaments. What I noticed now that I think back the smaller local tourneys had a limited shelf life . 6 months to a year usually . they would start out grow to a pretty good field 24-32 players ( usually 10-15 dollar entry ) . When the field would grow that always drew stronger and stronger players as the payouts got bigger. Then they would start to decline as the weaker players would start dropping out as they had no chance of cashing and the tournament eventually died . then another tourney would start at another bar or pool room and the cycle would begin again.

I now think handicapped tournaments are a good thing as it gives weaker players a chance if only an illusion of a chance and keeps them coming back every week. I have set in as a rail bird a few handicapped tournaments and can not see where the handicap hurts.

Lets be honest will a banger (D player) have much of a chance against a A Player even with the handicap probably not , but it will make his chances against a C player better , and a B player has a more level field against an A player , or AA what ever the rating system of choice happens to be.

I am not a fan of the APA , but if they are bringing people into the pool room , those folks are spending money , buying cues, buying drinks and food , and all the pool accessories they are helping the sport we love not hurting it

I cant honestly sit back and say that the League player loves the game any less than I do because he loves APA and I would rather gamble , or that he is doing less for the game than I am , truth be told JMHO

Best of Rolls

 

[Petros Andrikop]

It all depends on how someone is approaching the issue.
Personally I don't see any logic in assisting the inferior player winning against a superior one when we are talking about tournament play, no problem when we are talking about something else or organizing different levels of categories.
If this was the case in other sports then they would have the fate of Pool.
Any professional sport respects excellence that comes through hard work, due to reasons I explained this hasn't been the case in Pool.
That is one of the reasons that still keeps Pool in a "game" status vs the professional status it could have along with amateur.
Preserving the sport aspect of any sport is essential for the survival of it, in the end we get back what we give into something..
Petros

 

[trob]

Rewarded for it how? Why not having flyweights fight the heavyweights? After all, they should be rewarded for being bigger and hitting harder.

You know what welfare for pool players is? Expecting people to hand over money for nothing. That's welfare.

I learned to play through the bar and APA. One thing I never got into was acting like a jackass to others because they didn't want to spend all of their time on a pool table.

I spot mediocre players 30 or 40 all the time.. and then I give them an additional spot. I'm pretty sure I'm up in that scenario. Next, I'll be spotting them 2 s/l and so on. I've been playing for 9 years and that's been plenty of time to see how "big players" turn into crawfish when they find they can't win. Just a lot of talk, imho.

. Yes thats what your doing telling a fly weight that they get to hit a heavyweight 5 times for every one time they get hit? lol People watching boxing would find that ridiculous but in pool for some it makes sense. I have no idea what your welfare statement has to do with this thread. I don't act like a jackass to anyone who doesn't spend all there time at a pool table. Some people like the game and not love it and that's okay. I never said you weren't up to the scenario ... I started apa a 7 and was a 9 by the end of my first session. I believe I'm in the mid 70% in winning percentage so I can handle the spot also. I never get mad when I lose in apa (or any league actually.) I do find it funny when there celebrating that they won by getting to 34 balls before I got to 75. but then again I was a guy who never asked for a spot from no one because I didn't feel like I really won. I always have said apa rules are set for low to mid level players not for 8's and 9's so there's no reason to get upset. Now if I lost to a 4 even in a tournament of some sort I might be a little pissed at myself lol but apa big deal. have fun..shake there hand...move on.

I think the question is is it making better players..is it good for pool in the long run. I don't know. I was thinking about a comparison last night and Harley davidson came to mind (local company.) Harley was all but bankrupt when amf bought them in the 70's. amf jacked up production and flooded the market but they made terrible bikes lol ran half the time and leaked oil like a sieve. But even with that they're credited for saving the company because even though the bikes were bad they got people riding them. Is apa and Tap the same thing? Maybe.. Pool is dyeing and the only thing that seems to thrive is the apa and tap leagues so maybe in the long run maybe it's not bringing quality in players ( a lot of people who have no interest in getting better but do like to have a night out) but it's bringing quantity and maybe right now that's more important.

 

[SandFox]

After reading through a lot of this and being a whole lot younger then most of you (24)
I kinda see the points. I use to play just fun slop when I was a whole lot younger about 14 I just liked to make the balls go in the pocket. Slowly I got better finally being able to call the pocket I was shooting at that was about 17.

Fast forward a little I stopped playing completely until I joined a league this year and have gona against some of the best in the area in comparison of just playing I have gotten a lot better since october and make a point to practice 6 hours a week.

The handicap is nice to have so you stand a little better chance but its so far from a real gurantee its better to think about the game straight up then think well if i make a few my job is done nope not a chance in hell of winning like that. Usually after the games are all set you go talk to those better players they give you some very helpful hints and you learn. They want you to get better so they have to stay better its all about competing really.

 

[trob]

I can't argue with that. I have no idea why I've played virtually every damn day for the last 25 years and am driven to get better. lol I don't do it for money.. I certainly have enough plastic trophies to start my own store so that doesn't mean anything. I just love the game and want to play as well as my physical ability will allow and I've been that way since the first time I stepped into a pool room.

You are CORRECT !!

Don't confuse Tournament Win with Respect. The real question is " How much does winning a handicapped tournament matter compared to winning a NON-handicapped tournament?" It's about the purity of the SPORT, feel free to handicap while gambling, but a REAL tournament should be about who is the BEST!

It's a matter of respect for those that respect the game. It's not about the trophy, or the cash for that matter. That's the whole point...

"You tell me - do you know a SINGLE player at the A or B level who decided to get good at pool so he could enter and win certain tournaments? I don't. Players at that level get there because of some internal force, some deep interest in getting good at game.Who knows what motivates them. But it's not some specific tournament, or a dollar-store trophy."

 

[RiverCity]

I learned to get better to win money and move up the ladders in the pool rooms I grew up in. Cash games, tournaments whatever. Didnt matter, i wanted to be the best in the room. Of course it happened some times but not others But having a measuring stick was the driving force to get better.
That said, i think handicapped tournaments have their place. It gives weaker players a chance to play better players. And depending on the system, it can be fair, or it can be lopsided. Ive seen fair systems where a low C won the tournament with A players in it.
If you dont like the handicapped tournaments, dont play in them. Claiming that they have somehow ruined the game is nonsensical. It promotes players sticking with the game instead of quitting when they think they have no chance. IMO it drives people to try and get better.
Chuck

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Still all this doesn't answer two questions:
1. Why this logic does not apply to professional sports?
2. Why don't we have leagues in Pool according to categories like in those sports, where every player gets the chance to play straight up against other players of her/his own category, until/if she/he gets better and moves up?
The answers are simple:
1. Those sports are professional because they don't mix professional level with amateur or several levels of play between them. If you want to beat in tournament a professional/better player you have to work for it, that is the right way and that preserves a sport and the industry around it in a way with future prospect instead of one day plans.
2. In Pool the easy way has taken over things, since there are not enough complains this is the case.
So it doesn't really help to stand by and watch the sport transformed completely into a game, results will show up later..
Talking about it surely doesn't hurt, helps people involved undestanding different points of views better.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

If you want to beat in tournament a professional/better player you have to work for it, that is the right way and that preserves a sport and the industry around it in a way with future prospect instead of one day plans.

I agree with this :thumbup:

Handicap tournaments can also be so manipulative. You know the tournament director well? You sandbag in a town that does not know you to well etc...

Straight up, it is you, your opponent, and the game. No room for any manipulation or even favoritism.

 

[justadub]

If handicapping is ruining the sport, why does every big time gambling match end up being an exercise in determining "the spot"?

How many of the fabled big money gambling matches are played straight up? We just came out of DCC, and all the talk about all the great "action"...was that played "straight up"?

Nope.

Apparently all those "real players" want a handicap, too.

You can make every tournament straight up, no handicap, and then you will eventually have no tournaments. Or more accurately, very few tournaments.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

If handicapping is ruining the sport, why does every big time gambling match end up being an exercise in determining "the spot"?

How many of the fabled big money gambling matches are played straight up? We just came out of DCC, and all the talk about all the great "action"...was that played "straight up"?

Nope.

Apparently all those "real players" want a handicap, too.

You can make every tournament straight up, no handicap, and then you will eventually have no tournaments. Or more accurately, very few tournaments.

I think one should really measure what "great action" is first. The "great action" at the DCC is something that was happening at about every pool room in the country just decades ago (without handicapping).

So, the DCC is not going to give ANY relevant judgment on what it has done to the sport (positively or negatively). You really have to look at the big picture.

Has handicapping bought more people into the sport? Is it more popular now than it was say in the 70s, 80s? Does more people play local, regional, state etc... handicapped tournaments now than straight up back then? Is there as much action country wide now than there was straight up back then? These would be a better measure.

And you said it would create fewer tournaments. That is an inaccuracy. There is far less local, regional tournaments now than back then. But handicapping is not the only factor to consider in that aspect of it.

 

[justadub]

I think one should really measure what "great action" is first. The "great action" at the DCC is something that was happening at about every pool room in the country just decades ago (without handicapping).

So, the DCC is not going to give ANY relevant judgment on what it has done to the sport (positively or negatively). You really have to look at the big picture.

Has handicapping bought more people into the sport? Is it more popular now than it was say in the 70s, 80s? Does more people play local, regional, state etc... handicapped tournaments now than straight up back then? Is there as much action country wide now than there was straight up back then? These would be a better measure.

And you said it would create fewer tournaments. That is an inaccuracy. There is far less local, regional tournaments now than back then. But handicapping is not the only factor to consider in that aspect of it.

Fair enough, re the number of tournaments.

I still find it amusing to see the prevailing opinions here on AZB.

There is one very prevalent opinion, voiced time and time again, that if you don't gamble at pool, you can't be a really good player. Exceptions are allowed for the Soquet's of the world, but by and large if you don't gamble, you must not have any "heart".

Another prominent opinion, voiced often in this thread, is that if you aren't willing to play straight up and need a handicap, you are lazy, want everything given to you, won't put the time in, etc etc etc.

Yet we never hear of people gambling straight up, its always which player got which spot, and did the other guy outrun the nuts.

Funny, trying to figure out who is a real pool player. And even funnier the two sides of handicapping....gambling its great, league play or tourneys, its the ruination of pool.

 

[Banks]

Still all this doesn't answer two questions:
1. Why this logic does not apply to professional sports?

For the same reason it doesn't apply to pro pool? They are pros, they're not just recreational players that want to get out of the house once a week or more.

As for the second question.. both apa and bca do that. Bca has quite large events where players play against others in their group straight up. Apa has a few similar events, but they deal more with teams and mixing players together.

Some of the more popular tournaments around here are handicapped one way or another.

Trob - Iirc, you've said before that you were an 8 for a while. Also, the reason that a 4 is happy that they beat a 9 is because they played well for where they're at.

Who wants to discuss how long they've been playing, how much money they've invested in products and lessons and how well they play? We can get right down to it.

 

[JC]

Who wants to discuss how long they've been playing, how much money they've invested in products and lessons and how well they play? We can get right down to it.

I have a 9 foot diamond table set up by RKC. Did I mention that?

JC

 

[Banks]

I have a 9 foot diamond table set up by RKC. Did I mention that?

JC

In a few weeks, we'll get to see if it's done you any good. I'll try to take off some minis before I give you my money!

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Banks, thanks for the reply.
This is what I meant by my first question. Professional sports are professional exactly because no amateur can meet with a pro just like that, having the play format adapted to give him more chances to win with less effort. The exact opposite from what happens in Pool..

 

[Banks]

Banks, thanks for the reply.
This is what I meant by my first question. Professional sports are professional exactly because no amateur can meet with a pro just like that, having the play format adapted to give him more chances to win with less effort. The exact opposite from what happens in Pool..

I just woke up a little while ago, so maybe it's just me..

I'm not following what you said here - could you rephrase or elaborate? Thanks.