Happy Fourth

VeakNYC

Registered
The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:
New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery
Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott
New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross
Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean
Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton
North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn
South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton
Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
 
VeakNYC said:
The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. [snip]


Thank you for posting the most important document EVER written for societies.

My hope is that everyone here has read and integrated it into his/her belief system. Believe it or not, big principles such as these can help clean up the thinking processes. Then this technique of honest thinking can be used in a pool shot to improve it, too. I'm serious about this.

If you didn't read T.J.'s words, above, (or I guess even if you did) and want an nice, short anmimated version of the principles of individual liberty, go here:

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.html

Happy 4th of----no, Happy Independence Day to the world!

Liberty for each,

Jeff Livingston
 
VeakNYC said:
The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal ...

No denying it, the Declaration of Independence is among the most important documents ever written.

Still, at the time it was written, 1776, the notion of all men being equal was an ideal, and not one to which America was sufficiently committed. Only fourteen years later, when the census of 1790 was to be taken, a great debate in Congress raged over whether slaves should be counted. Northerners had traditionally viewed slaves as people, not property, and Southerners saw slaves as property. But when it came to the taking of the census, they flip-flopped. The census, then as now, affected a state’s power in national elections and the level of federal funding it could expect, so the Northerners suddenly argued that slaves were property and the Southerners said they were people. The remarkable result of this debate was the “three-fifths compromise”, which can, perhaps, be deemed the single strangest piece of legislation ever passed in this country. In the census of 1790, every five slaves were be counted as three people.

In short, the very same people that had said all men are equal passed legislation that said they weren’t. The mere utterance of ideals should never be confused for the application of those same ideals, and Abraham Lincoln reminded us of this in his “House Divided” speech and Martin Luther King did the same in his “I Have a Dream” speech.

As Americans, we are closer to the realization of the dreams of our founding fathers than we ever have been, and yet we must continue to recognize that we must continue to apply ourselves to the fulfillment of those lofty ideals.

Happy fourth of July to all.
 
sjm said:
No denying it, the Declaration of Independence is among the most important documents ever written.

Still, at the time it was written, 1776, the notion of all men being equal was an ideal, and not one to which America was sufficiently committed. Only fourteen years later, when the census of 1790 was to be taken, a great debate in Congress raged over whether slaves should be counted. Northerners had traditionally viewed slaves as people, not property, and Southerners saw slaves as property. But when it came to the taking of the census, they flip-flopped. The census, then as now, affected a state’s power in national elections and the level of federal funding it could expect, so the Northerners suddenly argued that slaves were property and the Southerners said they were people. The remarkable result of this debate was the “three-fifths compromise”, which can, perhaps, be deemed the single strangest piece of legislation ever passed in this country. In the census of 1790, every five slaves were be counted as three people.

In short, the very same people that had said all men are equal passed legislation that said they weren’t. The mere utterance of ideals should never be confused for the application of those same ideals, and Abraham Lincoln reminded us of this in his “House Divided” speech and Martin Luther King did the same in his “I Have a Dream” speech.

As Americans, we are closer to the realization of the dreams of our founding fathers than we ever have been, and yet we must continue to recognize that we must continue to apply ourselves to the fulfillment of those lofty ideals.

Happy fourth of July to all.

Well said.
 
Please be SAFE today

Keith McCready said:
Here's wishing everyone a safe and happy 4th of July

Yas Mr. Earthquake we plan to do jest that. Who knows, I might slip up and have a cool one my own self. Hope you is at Grady's thing in Gulfport so's I kin kinda meet ya in person. You and your's have a wonderful time today celebrating the birth of the best damn country on the face of this earth!!

HAPPY 4TH TO ALL!

THE PELICAN, your source of misinformation on the Gulf Coast
 
A very happy 4th to all, but mostly in rememberance of all of those who fought to make this day happen.

A very happy 4th!

eydie
 
Bob Romano said:
A very happy 4th to all, but mostly in rememberance of all of those who fought to make this day happen.

A very happy 4th!

eydie

Same to y'all eydie and bob. Eat rib or two for me :D , Pel
 
I'll drink one to that.

Bob Romano said:
A very happy 4th to all, but mostly in rememberance of all of those who fought to make this day happen.

A very happy 4th!

eydie


Here's to those who gave their life in the name of freedom and protecting the innocent people of the world. God bless our troops and keep them safe. Thank you for the fireworks Keith. Sam
 
Thank god there is still a celebration for the Declaration of Indepence which allows us to remember what made the US special and hopefully creates interest for the intention of the greatest constitution ever written for a group of states united.

Now the constitution is almost done away with and the US has high taxes, many trade barriers and federal government growth that would have the founding fathers rolling in their graves.

The founding fathers fought against taxes mostly in the range of a few percent. Perhaps it is time again for the tyrants to be overthrown.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Now the constitution is almost done away with and the US has high taxes, many trade barriers and federal government growth that would have the founding fathers rolling in their graves.

The founding fathers fought against taxes mostly in the range of a few percent. Perhaps it is time again for the tyrants to be overthrown.

Yowser, Colin. What are you saying?

The need for the government to invest in the infrastructure and economy of America was less in the days of the founding fathers than today. Part of this was due to the sad reality that slaves, which most of the founding fathers owned, provided cost-free labor that enabled the American agrarian to get more out of his economic exploits than he put in.

Ever since the industrial revolution, the need for government to support the American economy through larger per-capita spending on its own infrastructure and in support of its own enterprises has been indisputable. We pay more taxes than our founding fathers, and we live a better life. The founding fathers didn't have hot and cold running water, nor did they have electricity, cars, telephones, telelvisions, or any significant means of transportation. And, as summer is upon us, let's add that they didn't have air conditioning, either. Finally, they didn't even have AZBILLIARDS.

As for the trade barriers, the founding fathers never had to take the matter of foreign infiltration of the American economy seriously, as difficulties in transportation and distribution of product were sufficient to protect American interests.

Even your comment that they'd have cringed at the growth in government is highly speculative. The founding fathers lived in a period in which government grew demonstrably, and, as the Civil War later proved, grew in a way that left far too much room for interpretation on the matter of states' rights.

Your statement "the constitution is almost done away" is one you'll need to defend if you wish to have it taken seriously. For my money, the American constitution is a living, breathing reality, and the founding fathers would revel in the fact that Americans have kept it that way.

Three cheers for the founding fathers, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we've managed to do pretty well for ourselves since the days in which they lived.
 
sjm said:
Yowser, Colin. What are you saying?

The need for the government to invest in the infrastructure and economy of America was less in the days of the founding fathers than today. Part of this was due to the sad reality that slaves, which most of the founding fathers owned, provided cost-free labor that enabled the American agrarian to get more out of his economic exploits than he put in.

Ever since the industrial revolution, the need for government to support the American economy through larger per-capita spending on its own infrastructure and in support of its own enterprises has been indisputable. We pay more taxes than our founding fathers, and we live a better life. The founding fathers didn't have hot and cold running water, nor did they have electricity, cars, telephones, telelvisions, or any significant means of transportation. And, as summer is upon us, let's add that they didn't have air conditioning, either. Finally, they didn't even have AZBILLIARDS.

As for the trade barriers, the founding fathers never had to take the matter of foreign infiltration of the American economy seriously, as difficulties in transportation and distribution of product were sufficient to protect American interests.

Even your comment that they'd have cringed at the growth in government is highly speculative. The founding fathers lived in a period in which government grew demonstrably, and, as the Civil War later proved, grew in a way that left far too much room for interpretation on the matter of states' rights.

Your statement "the constitution is almost done away" is one you'll need to defend if you wish to have it taken seriously. For my money, the American constitution is a living, breathing reality, and the founding fathers would revel in the fact that Americans have kept it that way.

Three cheers for the founding fathers, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we've managed to do pretty well for ourselves since the days in which they lived.

Hi SJM,
Hardly the place here for a 1000 page economic or political rebuttal of your ideas.

But for any who would want to understand the issues better I would recommend studying the resources at:
www.mises.org and www.lewrockwell.com
 
Gremlin said:
SJM<

A 1000 page rebuttal is not requierd for a Happy 4th if July.

Gremlin :D

Grem,
I thought a re-buttal was done by a cue repairman when you cracked the butt of your cue (usually after missing an easy shot, or after striking your dastardly opponent over the head after some nasty sharking).
 
Williebetmore said:
Grem,
I thought a re-buttal was done by a cue repairman when you cracked the butt of your cue (usually after missing an easy shot, or after striking your dastardly opponent over the head after some nasty sharking).

That's right, Willie, and Tippecanoe was a Native American who did stick work. He used tiger tips, and his slogan was "Tippecanoe and tiger, too". Hope you're an American history buff that understands the reference!
 
sjm said:
Yowser, Colin. What are you saying?

The need for the government to invest in the infrastructure and economy of America was less in the days of the founding fathers than today. Part of this was due to the sad reality that slaves, which most of the founding fathers owned, provided cost-free labor that enabled the American agrarian to get more out of his economic exploits than he put in.


When you say "need for govt to invest..." where does this "need" come from? And who decides? And...what if I don't agree with this "need?"
Would I be treated as a slave and made to "invest" anyway?
(BTW, even slave labor has a cost.)




Ever since the industrial revolution, the need for government to support the American economy through larger per-capita spending on its own infrastructure and in support of its own enterprises has been indisputable.


Go to mises.org, as Colin suggested, study it, and then come back and talk about this amazing declaration of yours.


We pay more taxes than our founding fathers, and we live a better life.


Non-sequitur.


The founding fathers didn't have hot and cold running water, nor did they have electricity, cars, telephones, telelvisions, or any significant means of transportation. And, as summer is upon us, let's add that they didn't have air conditioning, either. Finally, they didn't even have AZBILLIARDS.

As for the trade barriers, the founding fathers never had to take the matter of foreign infiltration of the American economy seriously, as difficulties in transportation and distribution of product were sufficient to protect American interests.


Are you then saying that trade is not in America's interest? If not, how does the last part of your statement ring true? (I'm still stunned by the first part)



Even your comment that they'd have cringed at the growth in government is highly speculative. The founding fathers lived in a period in which government grew demonstrably, and, as the Civil War later proved, grew in a way that left far too much room for interpretation on the matter of states' rights.

Your statement "the constitution is almost done away" is one you'll need to defend if you wish to have it taken seriously. For my money, the American constitution is a living, breathing reality, and the founding fathers would revel in the fact that Americans have kept it that way.



For YOUR money? What about MY money? Is it not moral for me to control MY money? (vs. others who have not earned it, but want to spend it anyway).



Three cheers for the founding fathers, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we've managed to do pretty well for ourselves since the days in which they lived.


Perhaps this is the wrong forum for these economic discussions, but since you brought up many claims on YOUR ideas about using MY property, I couldn't just let these things go without comment. It's my self-defense mechanism kicking in, I suppose.
 
chefjeff said:
Perhaps this is the wrong forum for these economic discussions, but since you brought up many claims on YOUR ideas about using MY property, I couldn't just let these things go without comment. It's my self-defense mechanism kicking in, I suppose.
Hi Chefjeff,
I'm quite surprised to find another Misean / Libertarian in a pool forum. Or perhaps you're an Anarcho-capitalist or Jeffersonian.

Whatever the case, good to know I'm not alone. :D
 
sjm said:
That's right, Willie, and Tippecanoe was a Native American who did stick work. He used tiger tips, and his slogan was "Tippecanoe and tiger, too". Hope you're an American history buff that understands the reference!

SJM,
Thanks for the clarification. I had always thought the slogan referred to the 1840 presidential election in which W.H. Harrison (victor of the 1811 Battle of Tippecanoe, and vanquisher of Tecumseh in 1813) with Tyler as his vice-presidential candidate defeated Van Buren (in the hot seat after beating Harrison for the presidency in 1836). Of course, Harrison only lasted a month in office before dying of pneumonia (first president to die in office).

My own personal favorite presidential saying is, "Well, besides that how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

Interestingly enough, the Tippecanoe battlefield is now a state park near Lafayette, IN (where my son goes to school). For a week and a half every October, it hosts the Feast of the Hunter's Moon, one of the largest frontier re-creations in the country. It has a huge assortment of crafts, food, entertainment, and frontier life re-creations(from the late 18th and early 19th centuries). It is awesome. If you can make it this way some October, you will find it quite different than NYC. We could check it out, catch an opera in Bloomington, and perhaps get in a little straight pool.
 
An article from Ron Paul, the only congressman whom the lobbiests know they cannot bribe. The only congressman who both understands and follows the constitution.

Independence From Washington

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Freedom, self-determination, and the end of allegiance to an unaccountable government: 228 years ago this week a handful of radical American colonists set forth their demands in the Declaration of Independence. They sought independence not only from English rule, but also from the feudal notion of obedience to King and Crown. Their views were not shared even by a majority of their fellow colonists, nor could they hope to match England’s naval and military power – but their courage was undeniable.

A bloody conflict ensued, and the new Americans emerged victorious. But still we celebrate the 4th of July as the birth of our nation, rather than the date the Constitution was ratified. We celebrate the day our forefathers boldly proclaimed to the world that liberty was their goal, that the pursuit of individual freedom was paramount.

Those who signed the Declaration of Independence envisioned a nation based on the rule of law and the right of individuals to live their lives free from oppression. To a degree perhaps unimaginable to that band of radical idealists, their vision has come to pass over these two centuries.

That vision has been challenged throughout our history, however. The nineteenth century held slavery. The twentieth century saw the rise of socialism and its sister, fascism.

But rather than focus on where we have failed, we should stay focused on the ideal of freedom. The freedom we enjoy today is the direct result of the commitment of men and women who refused to compromise their ideals. Certainly they failed at times, but they understood that the goal was liberty. Today our government and society seem to have lost sight of this goal.

For more than six months of every year the average American toils not for his family, for his needs, or for his future. No, for the first six months of the year the average American works to pay the cost of federal, state, and local taxes and regulations. From New Year’s Day until about the 4th of July, you worked to pay for government. This is unconscionable.

Our Founding Fathers no doubt would be embarrassed at our squandering of their vision. After all, they revolted at a comparable tax rate in the single digits or less. And yet we willingly suffer an effective tax rate of 50%, and much more in many cases. They tyranny of the Crown has been replaced by the tyranny of the federal government in Washington.

We are not slaves, but many feel they are indentured servants to government. And by and large it has happened with our willing consent. We have knowingly compromised our sacred liberty for temporary promises of security or false prosperity.

But it does not have to be so. We can reclaim our independence not with guns, but with our voices. We can reject creeping statism and encourage the blessings of liberty for our land. It will require work, and it will require commitment, and it will require a willingness to stand firm for our beliefs. But that is a small price to pay compared to the sacrifices made by those who founded America.

Liberty, freedom, and self-determination. Those goals are as worthy of our attention today as they were 228 years ago in a hot convention hall in Philadelphia. Just as devotion to those goals brought forth this great nation then, a renewed adherence to liberty can save our nation today.

Our Founding Fathers felt freedom was worth their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor." Do we?

July 6, 2004
 
I also feel I must offer some clarification for the following politically correct and socialistic statements:

1. That the government INVESTS the taxes.
INVEST is wrong! Government confiscates money by threat of force against the productive members of society and redistrubutes that money to powerful political interests.

2. The LIVING CONSTITUTION
This is an old trick which basically means the Constitution is not a real LAW. It is used by those who wish to reduce invidual rights and increase government power. The exact opposite of the intention of the founding fathers who knew a lot more about government and history than do the socialist professors of today. If you have any doubt, go read the federalist papers.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Hi Chefjeff,
I'm quite surprised to find another Misean / Libertarian in a pool forum. Or perhaps you're an Anarcho-capitalist or Jeffersonian.

Whatever the case, good to know I'm not alone. :D


Hi Colin,

It's good for me to know, too. I feel sorrow that it takes someone living in China (correct?) to understand the values of liberty, but hey, China's gonna be the next bastion of freedom, imho. They're not as free as we are now, but what direction are they headed is more important to the future. Just look at the marches recently in Hong Kong--over 1/2 million people protesting big govt. Wow!

Notice how we dried up this thread in a hurry...:)

I don't really have a label to describe me. I have three rules for living: 1.) Don't start trouble. 2.) Pull your own weight. 3.) The only legitament use of force is to defend against those who violate rule #1. How's that?

Would you email me please? I have a personal question to ask you.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff Livingston
 
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