Hard Banks Curve Short - Why?

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
Why do hard-hit bank shots curve short after rebounding from the rail?

I'm not talking about:

1. the OB not having forward spin, so not curving long
2. the rail cloth's friction shortening the rebound angle
3. the rail shortening the rebound angle by its compression (assuming that's even real)

I mean the OB's rebound path starts out straight but then curves short as if it had draw on it (like a kick shot with draw),

I'm thinking it's cross-table topspin caused by the cushion nose being higher than centerball (as if the OB was hit above center by a cue aimed across the table perpendicular to the rail). Topspin in this direction would be across the "natural" rebound path and would act like backspin put on a CB for a kick shot, causing the ball to masse short off its straight rebound path.

Anybody know for sure or have a reasoned opinion?

Thanks,

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Why do hard-hit bank shots curve short after rebounding from the rail?

I mean the OB's rebound path starts out straight but then curves short as if it had draw on it (like a kick shot with draw),

I'm thinking it's cross-table topspin caused by the cushion nose being higher than centerball (as if the OB was hit above center by a cue aimed across the table perpendicular to the rail).

Anybody know for sure or have a reasoned opinion?

Thanks,

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


Have you considered that the cueball may be jumping into the object ball (i.e. hitting it above the equator) due to the "harder" hit and an elevated cue?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Why do hard-hit bank shots curve short after rebounding from the rail?

I'm not talking about:

1. the OB not having forward spin, so not curving long
2. the rail cloth's friction shortening the rebound angle
3. the rail shortening the rebound angle by its compression (assuming that's even real)

I mean the OB's rebound path starts out straight but then curves short as if it had draw on it (like a kick shot with draw),

I'm thinking it's cross-table topspin caused by the cushion nose being higher than centerball (as if the OB was hit above center by a cue aimed across the table perpendicular to the rail). Topspin in this direction would be across the "natural" rebound path and would act like backspin put on a CB for a kick shot, causing the ball to masse short off its straight rebound path.

Anybody know for sure or have a reasoned opinion?

Thanks,

pj
chgo
Click to expand...



thats a reasonable statment that I'd have to agree with without further tests or whatever......you probably hit it on the nose pat.
 
No one understood this better than Eddie Taylor. To this day the only man I ever saw shoot a bank shot that curved around another ball. Not a lot, more like a half masse. But I saw him set up cross side banks that had a ball partially obscuring the path to the pocket, and he was able to make the object ball curve slightly, just enough to catch the high side of the pocket. It definitely curved! How he did this and controlled it, I have no idea. He let other players (good ones) attempt the same shot and they couldn't do it. Of course the cloth in that era (Stevens) had a lot more "grab" then Simoniz, if that means anything. Maybe a medium hard stroke, not unlike the way he hit other banks.
Johnston City - mid 1960's.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Why do hard-hit bank shots curve short after rebounding from the rail?

I'm not talking about:
3. the rail shortening the rebound angle by its compression (assuming that's even real)
pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I think you're theory of the OB topspin going into the rail is sound.

As far as hard shots shortening off the rail because of compression, that is real.

I think the best way to describe it is to imagine the rail compressed pushing the ball back towards the direction it came. The harder the shot, the more the compression, the more it pushes back.
 

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jay helfert said:
No one understood this better than Eddie Taylor. To this day the only man I ever saw shoot a bank shot that curved around another ball. Not a lot, more like a half masse. But I saw him set up cross side banks that had a ball partially obscuring the path to the pocket, and he was able to make the object ball curve slightly, just enough to catch the high side of the pocket. It definitely curved! How he did this and controlled it, I have no idea. He let other players (good ones) attempt the same shot and they couldn't do it. Of course the cloth in that era (Stevens) had a lot more "grab" then Simoniz, if that means anything. Maybe a medium hard stroke, not unlike the way he hit other banks.
Johnston City - mid 1960's.
Click to expand...

Pat is right about the draw, and you are right about the cloth Jay. I was in a room the other day that had nap cloth on it. The draw I could get was unreal! And, you would easily get the curve on draw shots. It was fun playing on that kind of cloth again, it's been a long time!
 
jay helfert said:
No one understood this better than Eddie Taylor. To this day the only man I ever saw shoot a bank shot that curved around another ball. Not a lot, more like a half masse. But I saw him set up cross side banks that had a ball partially obscuring the path to the pocket, and he was able to make the object ball curve slightly, just enough to catch the high side of the pocket. It definitely curved! How he did this and controlled it, I have no idea. He let other players (good ones) attempt the same shot and they couldn't do it. Of course the cloth in that era (Stevens) had a lot more "grab" then Simoniz, if that means anything. Maybe a medium hard stroke, not unlike the way he hit other banks.
Johnston City - mid 1960's.
Click to expand...

I remember when Eddie Kelly came through Dallas, about 1963, and showed us locals a bank shot just like you mentioned. In this case, it was a bank into a corner pocket with a ball partially blocking the direct path from the rail into the pocket. I was standing where I could see that the object ball curved just enough to go around the obstructing ball and into the pocket. All I remember about the shot is that he fired it in with a very hard stroke. It seems to me that the object ball must have acquired a bit of draw off of the rail?
 
jay helfert said:
No one understood this better than Eddie Taylor. To this day the only man I ever saw shoot a bank shot that curved around another ball. Not a lot, more like a half masse. But I saw him set up cross side banks that had a ball partially obscuring the path to the pocket, and he was able to make the object ball curve slightly, just enough to catch the high side of the pocket. It definitely curved! How he did this and controlled it, I have no idea. He let other players (good ones) attempt the same shot and they couldn't do it. Of course the cloth in that era (Stevens) had a lot more "grab" then Simoniz, if that means anything. Maybe a medium hard stroke, not unlike the way he hit other banks.
Johnston City - mid 1960's.
Click to expand...


Broomback can do that, he showed me. I couldnt get it right, I just dont have the right stroke to get the action. He spent a week in Vegas on biz and stayed with me, I saw more things about banks than knew existed. He awalys likes to curve the OB so its going into the pocket square thus resulting in a bigger pocket. I had my chin on the pocket casting(no i didnt lose any teeth) and could see the ball curve so it was going in to the pocket square, making any pocket play bigger-that's the key to banks he said especially on cross corner banks-not straight backs, those are hangers LOL. I cant make the OB do that.
 
Fatboy said:
Broomback can do that, he showed me. I couldnt get it right, I just dont have the right stroke to get the action. He spent a week in Vegas on biz and stayed with me, I saw more things about banks than knew existed. He awalys likes to curve the OB so its going into the pocket square thus resulting in a bigger pocket. I had my chin on the pocket casting(no i didnt lose any teeth) and could see the ball curve so it was going in to the pocket square, making any pocket play bigger-that's the key to banks he said especially on cross corner banks-not straight backs, those are hangers LOL. I cant make the OB do that.
Click to expand...

George Rood could do the same thing, amazing to observe.
 
Taylor vs Wimpy

I seen Taylor make that shot against Wimpy in Johnston City while they were playing against each other in the All-Around finals. They were playing 1pkt and Wimpy eventually won the 1pkt match and the All-Around. The first time I seen it was off of a sports highlight clip on network TV that had covered the tourn. I think it was ABC. The final game of the match where Taylor makes that bank is available somewhere because I have seen it several times. I have just forgotten where. Taylor's shot was a long cross corner with the object ball starting out on the other side of the side pocket. That is the optimum angle for the shot.

I have shot and made that particular version many times, but I have since forgotten about that layout and havent tried it in at least 20 years. No big trick, just an extremely hard force-follow stroke. No side english necessary or needed.

I cover several variations of that shot, in a shorter angle version, in my first DVD, Banks That Dont Go- But Do, where I make the ob ball bend around an obstacle.

Beard

For more exact schematics, buy the DVD
 
If Sir Frederico says it can be made, then you can bet it goes. Freddie knows Banks, that's for damn sure. And Taylor was the best I ever saw! I didn't see enough of Bugs, but he was held in the same high regard. Those two ruled the Bank Pool world of the 60's and 70's (Taylor goes back to the 50's). There were lots of other good players (like Truman, Donny Anderson and Cannonball), but when it came to who was the best, there were only two names mentioned.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Why do hard-hit bank shots curve short after rebounding from the rail?

I'm not talking about:

1. the OB not having forward spin, so not curving long
2. the rail cloth's friction shortening the rebound angle
3. the rail shortening the rebound angle by its compression (assuming that's even real)

I mean the OB's rebound path starts out straight but then curves short as if it had draw on it (like a kick shot with draw),

I'm thinking it's cross-table topspin caused by the cushion nose being higher than centerball (as if the OB was hit above center by a cue aimed across the table perpendicular to the rail). Topspin in this direction would be across the "natural" rebound path and would act like backspin put on a CB for a kick shot, causing the ball to masse short off its straight rebound path.

Anybody know for sure or have a reasoned opinion?

Thanks,

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I am sure Dr. Dave has a link to a video for you.
 
freddy the beard said:
I seen Taylor make that shot against Wimpy in Johnston City while they were playing against each other in the All-Around finals. They were playing 1pkt and Wimpy eventually won the 1pkt match and the All-Around. The first time I seen it was off of a sports highlight clip on network TV that had covered the tourn. I think it was ABC. The final game of the match where Taylor makes that bank is available somewhere because I have seen it several times. I have just forgotten where. Taylor's shot was a long cross corner with the object ball starting out on the other side of the side pocket. That is the optimum angle for the shot.

I have shot and made that particular version many times, but I have since forgotten about that layout and havent tried it in at least 20 years. No big trick, just an extremely hard force-follow stroke. No side english necessary or needed.

I cover several variations of that shot, in a shorter angle version, in my first DVD, Banks That Dont Go- But Do, where I make the ob ball bend around an obstacle.

Beard

For more exact schematics, buy the DVD
Click to expand...

Sorry Freddie. The rules have changed on AZB. Now if you say something is possible you MUST reveal the layout, the exact way you hit it, back it up with videos with ten camera angles, have five witnesses and MOST IMPORTANTLY whatever you say is possible MUST be confirmed by Dr. Dave Alciatore with a link or several back to his website. Otherwise, sorry, you're a fraud.

I like your books and I would use your advice in them but since you don't do any of the above things on AZB I just can't use your stuff in my pool game.

Imagine how it would be for me if I said I used Freddie's system for this or that.....I'd get ridiculed and barbecued on here.

Your old friend San Jose Dick constantly tries.

:-)
 
Luxury said:
Here is a video of me making a gold eight ball get a lot of backspin transferred by follow from the cue ball.

I think this demonstration applies to the curving bank shot topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX2OKcbjojU
Click to expand...
That's a cool shot, but I think freezing the OB against several other OBs makes a big difference.

The OB is sandwiched between the CB and the other OBs, so much more backspin is transferred, the backspin isn't rubbed off by any forward motion of the OB, and the OB actually bounces back a little off the mass of the other OBs (like a CB bounces back from hitting a rack of balls).

I doubt that transferred backspin can play a significant role in curving bank shots.

pj
chgo
 
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I thought it was explained in a previous post was that the secret to curving the*bank was tons of force follow so I figured I made the connection. Not 100% sure tho.
 
Actually I wasn't entirely kidding because I think that Dr. Dave does have a video where he and Bob Jewett are exploring bank shots and they bust a few myths if I remember correctly.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's a cool shot, but I think freezing the OB against several other OBs makes a big difference.

The OB is sandwiched between the CB and the other OBs, so much more backspin is transferred, the backspin isn't rubbed off by any forward motion of the OB, and the OB actually bounces back a little off the mass of the other OBs (like a CB bounces back from hitting a rack of balls).

I doubt that transferred backspin can play a significant role in curving bank shots.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Without a slow motion look at the collision I couldn't tell if the OB bounced back or double kissed off of the black eight ball. I saw minimal if any spin transfer. Nice vid!

Best,
Mike
 
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