Harmonics/Sympathetic Vibration....or whatever

[TripXQ]

harmonics

Hi,
From my efforts to produce a better hitting cue I have devled into audio acoustic engineering. In doing so, one finds that each piece of wood is truly unique. They do fall into ranges based on the type of wood though. These ranges seem to be a function of the cell structure of the wood species. A very compact dense cell structure will resonate differently than a more open less dense structure.

My efforts revolve around finding wood pieces with no voids or internal cracks (wood shakes). This is where audio acoustics comes in handy. You can produce a 3d interior image (not perfectly depicted) of acoustic discontinuities. These represent changes in density along an axis. A crack or void will have a distinct boundary that can be seen by oscilloscope and careful testing. Depending on size it may even be audible when the piece is struck. This is probably what cuemakers refer to when they drop test wood.

It is surprising how many pieces of wood I discard due to nonuniformity. I have cut pieces that did not resonate cleanly and honestly found the cracks and voids predicted by oscilloscope testing. I'm now a firm believer(no pun intended) of acoustic testing. Forearms, shafts, handles and buttsleeves all get viewed (before and after assembly) and discarded if necessary.

When assembling cues I strive for minimum interior voids at glueup. These also produce acoustic discontinuities. That's why two cues made by the same person under what they think are identical conditions with the same dimensions hit the balls differently. Great care during assembly is something the cue buyer has to assume of the cue maker. This may or may NOT be true.

The best can, and do, make small errors that will never be seen by the public. A true craftsman knows how to hide mistakes. There will occassionally be what I will call the 'cuemakers best effort'. That cue that transcends the others. We've all seen that rare "hoochey coochey cue" that plays like the hand of god is driving. It seems to do everything right. The right mix of balance, wood composition, materials list, dimensions for our taste, tip/ferrule combo, and, I will add, acoustic perfection.

There's a lot to building that magic wand, that everyone is trying to find.
Flame if you like, but I truly believe in what I have said. They remain my opinions.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues

 

[bdcues]

The Forest Products Lab has done extensive tested on sound transmission in wood. I don't know if they have a data base that is searchable for the results. The vibration is what makes a cue play fabulous or like a log. It is the biggest single reason that I make laminated butts and shafts.
Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com

 

[danquixote]

First of all....I would like to say Thank You! to all the respondents....I knew there would be those that were so dedicated to their art that no stone would go unturned in the persuit of perfection.....but never did I imagine the wealth of information that would be presented upon the submission of this thread......My gratefull thanks to all of you......Dan

 

[dave sutton]

C. I u don't understand I don't l know what to tell you. There are other makers Here telling you te same thing. Obv it's nothing you tune. The sound is hears in the selection process. I told you what to do if you haven't done it yet then honestly you don't have the right to blindly agrue your point. Do u think we use every shaft we cut? When we go thru shaftwood and say one shaft finished weight is 3.7oz and another shaft is 4.2oz what is the difference? Density. Now without a tip ferrule and joint installed if you drop them on concrete your telling me each shaft won't make a different noise? You are very very wrong 1000%

 

[JoeyInCali]

So what resonant frequency should a "top custom" cue be tuned to? And as for a cue not needing strings to have musical qualities, you are correct. You can beat it on a drum, or whip it around like Vince to make a cool swooshing sound. You can even play the air guitar if you would like. So tell me what I obviously don't know. How do you as a cuemaker, factor in the resonant frequency when building a cue and how does it affect the play and feel?

If the maple handle stock sounds dull, I throw it away.

 

[Big C]

Hi,
From my efforts to produce a better hitting cue I have devled into audio acoustic engineering. In doing so, one finds that each piece of wood is truly unique. They do fall into ranges based on the type of wood though. These ranges seem to be a function of the cell structure of the wood species. A very compact dense cell structure will resonate differently than a more open less dense structure.

My efforts revolve around finding wood pieces with no voids or internal cracks (wood shakes). This is where audio acoustics comes in handy. You can produce a 3d interior image (not perfectly depicted) of acoustic discontinuities. These represent changes in density along an axis. A crack or void will have a distinct boundary that can be seen by oscilloscope and careful testing. Depending on size it may even be audible when the piece is struck. This is probably what cuemakers refer to when they drop test wood.

It is surprising how many pieces of wood I discard due to nonuniformity. I have cut pieces that did not resonate cleanly and honestly found the cracks and voids predicted by oscilloscope testing. I'm now a firm believer(no pun intended) of acoustic testing. Forearms, shafts, handles and buttsleeves all get viewed (before and after assembly) and discarded if necessary.

When assembling cues I strive for minimum interior voids at glueup. These also produce acoustic discontinuities. That's why two cues made by the same person under what they think are identical conditions with the same dimensions hit the balls differently. Great care during assembly is something the cue buyer has to assume of the cue maker. This may or may NOT be true.

The best can, and do, make small errors that will never be seen by the public. A true craftsman knows how to hide mistakes. There will occassionally be what I will call the 'cuemakers best effort'. That cue that transcends the others. We've all seen that rare "hoochey coochey cue" that plays like the hand of god is driving. It seems to do everything right. The right mix of balance, wood composition, materials list, dimensions for our taste, tip/ferrule combo, and, I will add, acoustic perfection.

There's a lot to building that magic wand, that everyone is trying to find.
Flame if you like, but I truly believe in what I have said. They remain my opinions.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues

Thanks Tom. That's a good explanation/description and I appreciate your thoughts. I can see where a cue maker will pay attention to how a piece of wood sounds by lightly dropping it on a hard surface, thereby trying to detect a dull sound for the purpose of weeding out a bad piece. You most certainly would not be able to compare it to the harmonics of a guitar soundboard. I do believe that the sound you hear when striking a cue ball is largely due to the tip/ferrule material, followed by the integrity of the construction techniques used to build and assemble the cue. You probably feel more with a wrapless cue, as linen and leather may have a dampening effect. As a player, the feel that we experience is dominated by the vibrations produced when striking a cueball that we feel in our hands. Also, the sound of a well struck shot can also fall in the feel "category" as it is feedback.

 

[DaveK]

.... Obv it's nothing you tune. The sound is hears in the selection process.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could "tune" a cue ? It doesn't seem obvious to me that you can't.

I told you what to do if you haven't done it yet then honestly you don't have the right to blindly agrue your point.

I'm not sure he's blindly argueing, I see it more like asking tough questions.

Dave

 

[Big C]

Wouldn't it be cool if you could "tune" a cue ? It doesn't seem obvious to me that you can't.



I'm not sure he's blindly argueing, I see it more like asking tough questions.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I'm glad you got it. I just want to know if and why. I'm not trying to make anyone angry and I don't mean to be obtuse. But sometimes you just have to keep asking the same questions a little differently than before until someone understands it and can explain. It can be hard to get a point across on a forum and sometimes people think you are just being a smartass.

 

[dave sutton]

Thanks Dave. I'm glad you got it. I just want to know if and why. I'm not trying to make anyone angry and I don't mean to be obtuse. But sometimes you just have to keep asking the same questions a little differently than before until someone understands it and can explain. It can be hard to get a point across on a forum and sometimes people think you are just being a smartass.

i appologize as i did think you were being a smartass. its not that easy to explain. easier to show. over the years after bouncing god knows how many shafts. there is a range of sound. if the shafts meet my specs and is straight but maybe doesnt sound good or light they become break shafts or arent used

 

[Fatboy]

The vibration is what makes a cue play fabulous or like a log.
Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com

This is true, because of the time the tip contacts the CB. If you increase the length of time the tip stays intouch with CB the more spin you get. This is what I have been told by cue makers-so dont sshoot the messanger. I have found it to be true.


What I have noticed with I consider good hitting cues 75% of the time-meaning 3 out of 4 good hitting cues. If I break the balls playing 9 ball and hit the CB I get alot of action on the balls and a good break. However if I miss hit the CB just a hair from center I get lots and lots of unintended spin, right/left/follow or a combination of spins, I lose the CB real bad. Now if I miss hit the break(to the same degree) with a log I dont get as much unintended english. My point is some cues are less forgiving than others and for what ever reason I'd say for me 3 out of 4 good hitting cues are the least forgiving. I have a Gus and a Black Boar that are so unforgiving on the break I wont break with them period and they are my 2 best hitting cues. I have a sugar tree that is the 1 out of the 4 that hits great but is forgiving if I mis hit the CB, I use it as a player in Germany and a break cue here.


my point is good hitting cues have a special element that others dont have. I have played long enough, with enough wood and play good enough to know what I'm talking about. What I dont know is exactly what that element is

 

[greyghost]

I know what it is, but it involves a chickens foot and an old woman I know down the bayou.

I can't say anymore than that....shhhh they're listening
Grey GHost

 

[SK Custom Cues]

This is true, because of the time the tip contacts the CB. If you increase the length of time the tip stays intouch with CB the more spin you get. This is what I have been told by cue makers-so dont sshoot the messanger. I have found it to be true.


What I have noticed with I consider good hitting cues 75% of the time-meaning 3 out of 4 good hitting cues. If I break the balls playing 9 ball and hit the CB I get alot of action on the balls and a good break. However if I miss hit the CB just a hair from center I get lots and lots of unintended spin, right/left/follow or a combination of spins, I lose the CB real bad. Now if I miss hit the break(to the same degree) with a log I dont get as much unintended english. My point is some cues are less forgiving than others and for what ever reason I'd say for me 3 out of 4 good hitting cues are the least forgiving. I have a Gus and a Black Boar that are so unforgiving on the break I wont break with them period and they are my 2 best hitting cues. I have a sugar tree that is the 1 out of the 4 that hits great but is forgiving if I mis hit the CB, I use it as a player in Germany and a break cue here.


my point is good hitting cues have a special element that others dont have. I have played long enough, with enough wood and play good enough to know what I'm talking about. What I dont know is exactly what that element is

Fatboy is onto something with his comments. I can dig what he is saying and I would like to add that with certain cues, there just seems to be more 'nerve endings' in more parts of the cue than others. I think this is a subject that is the equivalent to some of the deepest subjects out there. I would rate this up there with the unknowns of the universe. Wood is incredibly unpredictable and has so many varieties that it is so difficult to pin point with any sort of consistency what makes one piece of wood perform in relation to another piece.

There are grades of shafts wood and there are grades within those grades, but really, that isn't guaranteeing anything with 100% certainty.

For me, I judge the cue by how it sounds, and overall, the feeling it gives me when I stroke a nice clean shot. That is the ultimate way to judge. I actually give a cue that I like a total of 60-90 days. There is a connection that I graduate onto after spending a certain number of hours with that cue. It's kind of like a woman. You don't know what you got until that 'newness' wears off. :wink:

 

[greyghost]

maybe thats why i loved the new weinstock so much, no makeup to take off....she looked like she hadn't showered in days.....ugly duck shoots the lights out. Gotta take you up on that refinish when I come down Sung.

hope your doing well buddy,
Grey Ghost

 

[SK Custom Cues]

just lemme know when you get in town.....

 

[DaveK]

I think this is a subject that is the equivalent to some of the deepest subjects out there. I would rate this up there with the unknowns of the universe.

I think that not enough proper study has been done. As a wise man once said, you can't fix what you can't measure. Kudos to the very few on this thread who are performing consistent and repeatable tests.

Dave

 

[jayman]

Don't forget the importance of a good tip. It can make a great cue play very poorly.
I recently installed a triumph tip on one of my old Adam cues because it gave it kind of a vintage look similar to the 70's Champion tip that it came with . I played a few games with it but it was just very dead feeling and made a low thud sound. I was having a real struggle trying to get proper ball speed for good position.
Since a cue that sucks is just a stick of wood, Not a "pool cue"
I replaced the tip again with an original 23 layer Hercules medium. Now I like the way it plays so much, that I've taken it with me ever since.

 

[hangemhigh]

I purchased 2 Oscilloscopes from a member here a while ago, and have been using them in comparison to the tried and true tonal test on concrete. There is something out there.

 

[Magik Wandzzzzz]

Diekman sayzzzzz

I am not now nor do I intend to in the future......build cues. I have worked in tool production .....ie dental tools. I also remember some various harmonics studys on wood by musicial instrument makers......soooooo my question is thus......Has any sort of difinitive study been done on cue harmonics.....is it all protected info developed by individual manufacturers....has the effect of harmoincs been dismissed as unapplicable to cue making because it is so much of an individual feel sort of thing........just curious about this......and I probably managed to demonstrate just how little knowledge I have of cue making:grin:

Deek<-----go to my web site, stuble along long enough and you will find what many think is the ultimate discussion on the "point of harmonic balance in a cue" good luck and call me anytime sucker.....734-428-1161

 

[just kick'n]

Big C

Just be thankful that there are cuemakers that consider this information, or you might be playing with a cane cue instead of fishing with a cane pole.
Sorry, just had to say it for the remarkable cuemakers out there!