Has anyone ever seen an A-Joint like this? I think it is a early Huebler!!

[cutter]

A-joint

It's much easier to turn floating points for sure. They also don't thin out as your turning the cue, so the lenth doesn't change. I noticed something from fullsplice blanks & dufferin conversions, maybe someone knows if My thinking is correct here.


I had good centers on 2 cues out of a batch, with the points trimming pretty close to even and holding each time i would pull them down and run a couple of turns, when all of a sudden on one pass they started to runoff alittle. The same centers, running dead nuts, with no runnout to speak of. It kind of puzzled me until i started trimming a couple of fresh.960 blanks, and one had alittle bit of runnout not at the tips but alittle below it. Well I made a pass, took any runnout out of the blank, and the tips ran even with My center holes, but they were running even from the get go. That got me thinking if that area that had runnout originally, then once down to near finish size the tips end up down below where that area was in that runnout area, even though by then the cue shows no runout. I thought then maybe that's what was caused the issue with the 2 blanks I mentioned. If the points are getting shorter as You trim, then wouldn't it just be a matter of if the tips end up in that area when getting to finish size? By then there's not much skin to reset the points. I can see some blanks having this issue hiding, just waitng to happen if this is possible. Maybe I just think too much LOL


Greg

Greg

It all depends on how accurate the blank is. You"re assuming that the blank is perfect. Let's face it, they are usually not. I'm redoing an old billiard full splice cue. It has two points that are longer than the other two. Trouble is they are opposite of each other. Can't wobble that straight, no matter how you think about it.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

It's much easier to turn floating points for sure. They also don't thin out as your turning the cue, so the lenth doesn't change. I noticed something from fullsplice blanks & dufferin conversions, maybe someone knows if My thinking is correct here.


I had good centers on 2 cues out of a batch, with the points trimming pretty close to even and holding each time i would pull them down and run a couple of turns, when all of a sudden on one pass they started to runoff alittle. The same centers, running dead nuts, with no runnout to speak of. It kind of puzzled me until i started trimming a couple of fresh.960 blanks, and one had alittle bit of runnout not at the tips but alittle below it. Well I made a pass, took any runnout out of the blank, and the tips ran even with My center holes, but they were running even from the get go. That got me thinking if that area that had runnout originally, then once down to near finish size the tips end up down below where that area was in that runnout area, even though by then the cue shows no runout. I thought then maybe that's what was caused the issue with the 2 blanks I mentioned. If the points are getting shorter as You trim, then wouldn't it just be a matter of if the tips end up in that area when getting to finish size? By then there's not much skin to reset the points. I can see some blanks having this issue hiding, just waitng to happen if this is possible. Maybe I just think too much LOL


Greg

Greg

You build cues..........how can you think too much?

If I understand what your saying, the situation your explaining has to do with the center line of the cue blank. This can happen on any of them from a short blank to a full splice length. Keeping absolute centers @ both ends with no wood movement would be the idea situation but rarely is the case. Different methods of building blanks will minimize the center line deviation but I don't think there is a fail safe method to totally eliminate it.
Your working with a natural product that is moving, twisting and bending at different rates and even when in finished mode is subjected to different environments which cause this to still happen even after encased in a thick "plastic" finish.
All we can do is hope to accomplish in our journey is too minimize it as much as possible.


<~~~center line deviation..............something more to think about...

 

[Cue Crazy]

It all depends on how accurate the blank is. You"re assuming that the blank is perfect. Let's face it, they are usually not. I'm redoing an old billiard full splice cue. It has two points that are longer than the other two. Trouble is they are opposite of each other. Can't wobble that straight, no matter how you think about it.

True, they are rarely perfect from what I've seen of them, and alot could happen when they are cut, spliced, and turned in the first place I suppose, that is before It even has time for movement. Sometimes you can tell By the thickness of the points, that the back center hole was off to one side when turned. I haven't ran accross one that had shorter points on the oposite sides except hi/lo's which are obviously done that way on purpose, and what your talking about is not. Yeah I can't imagine there's too much you could do about that. Usually I see the stair way effect.

Greg

 

[Cue Crazy]

You build cues..........how can you think too much?

If I understand what your saying, the situation your explaining has to do with the center line of the cue blank. This can happen on any of them from a short blank to a full splice length. Keeping absolute centers @ both ends with no wood movement would be the idea situation but rarely is the case. Different methods of building blanks will minimize the center line deviation but I don't think there is a fail safe method to totally eliminate it.
Your working with a natural product that is moving, twisting and bending at different rates and even when in finished mode is subjected to different environments which cause this to still happen even after encased in a thick "plastic" finish.
All we can do is hope to accomplish in our journey is too minimize it as much as possible.


<~~~center line deviation..............something more to think about...

LOL, good question, and can't think of a good reason

Yep, that's another part of what I'm thinking of too, centerline deviation.

I've used short blanks before too, and your right they can be the same way. The next time I build with points & an "A" joint, It will be from My own blank, and I will try to keep good centers on It from the start. I'm keeping the spacing even in My ringwork, so It's gotta be in the blank somewhere, just blew My mind how they ran off, even though they were running even on the exact same centers. If I had seen the runnout or movment, then I would have understood what was happening. Then when turning that one at .960 for the first time, I noticed there was no runout at the points, and they were even, but that point below them was showing some runout, and that got me thinking well if I cut that straight, are the points eventually going to start to runoff as I'm turning the blank when It gets to that spot, as the points get shorter. the back of the blank was offcentered too, so there's where the deviation comes in, It almost looks like the points were evened up, but only so far down from the joint. Maybe I'm thinking too much again LOL

I've also had some that are egg shaped but the points are even from the start. has me wondering If there is a method used to make those look even too, because If I turn off the original centers the points may runoff, as if they weren't evened up using the centers that they came with, but possibly some other method. My instinct tells me that If the points are even, but the centerhole is off, then I may want to chuck the joint up, dial it all in, face and drill a new center, but how do I do that with an egg shaped blank LOL.

I still have a long way to go to understand all that stuff fully, but boy It never fails to test My way of thinking, no matter how many i get under My belt.

I understand the centerline part, but the runout can really throw a curve ball sometimes.I guess it just caught me off guard that if i'm doing turns off the same centers the points stay even, no runout ever appears, but yet the points can still runoff when I least expect It. I can understand it when I see movement take place though. I had no clue until i did the first turn on that blank, and it got me to thinking.


Greg

 

[qbilder]

Greg, I once got to see the machinery used to build full splice house cues on mass scale. I was amazed at the simplicity but dissappointed at the lack of accuracy. The machine used to cut the front end of the blank, the grooves, was a custom made horizontal shaper with a pneumatic actuator. It was nuts!!! Very cool machine. They cut grooves into square wood. However, if the squares were not dead nuts square then some grooves would be cut deeper than others. And if the squares were not clamped up exactly dead nuts each cut then the taper would change & some grooves might be longer & narrower than others. It didn't matter if the points were even or not, as they were house cues. But it would be a real mess for a custom builder to do a conversion & try to even the points!!! Unless the squares are dead nuts & the guy making the blank is really prideful in his work, there would never be a true center line that could keep the points even as the points were never cut even in the first place.

The factory went out of business long ago. I was able to buy the butt end splicing jig from the people who bought all the equipment at auction. Could have bought the gigantic horizonal shaper, too. But it ran on 220 3-phase & weighed a ton I think. A huge machine for me to build only a few blanks, but if anybody is looking for large scale blank production it would be great.

 

[classiccues]

Balabushka's are tenoned. With a big screw for assembly. If you got a Bushka with no tenon, chances are you don't have a Bushka.

As far as their popularity amongst collectors and such... lets just say he did more with less and it's evident if you studied the methods he used. There is also a reason his cue was THE cue of the pros of his era.

If anyone has some Bushkas you feel are going to fall apart, please e-mail me I will buy them for the scrap price you feel they are worth.

JV

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Many things can come in to play........
You can have a blank on exactly dead centers at both ends but if the blank has warp out at the center of the blank it will no longer be on the center line of the blank. The worst case is when you end up with a blank that has the longest and shortest point next to each other.........forget about getting them all even without doing some scraping and sanding.

A lot of setups are done with a small (.003 to.005) final clean up cut when building the blank and I myself have lost count or been distracted by the phone or whatever and maybe forgot to do that clean up pass in one of the point grooves....................and it doesn't show up till you are turn them taper.

There are many reasons why things happen.......the most important for asthetics is that they look good after the final pass.


<~~~don't over think yourself into a box..............

 

[merylane]

I've been saying this for years. If Balabushka was still alive and making cues today, and if still making them in the same fashion, he couldn't give them away. Everyone worships his cue building techniques, which to me, were standard at the time with other cue makers and sometimes just plain old primitive. Most of his cues were little more than converted house cues with an oil finish. What turned his cues into a collectible classic was the Color of Money. Because of an exotic sounding name, overnight the reputation and price of his cues increased ten-fold. Fast Eddie was supposed to be from California but no one in California ever even heard of George Balabushka. The big name on the West coast was the often overlooked Harvey Martin but his name was not colorful enough for a movie.

Dick

could you tell me who these other cuemakers were who were building up to his standards?

why was he the only one who had a real waiting list?

its funny 2 originals from 73 showed up at the houston show, from a pool room owner from california who had trouble getting him to make them until a champ put in a good word for him?????

 

[dzcues]

Thanks very much for the reply Bob. Do you think he builds all his cues that way, or was it just something he tried.

No idea. Cue hit nicely before the "accident". Here's a pic.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

No idea. Cue hit nicely before the "accident". Here's a pic.

This "splice" was pretty standard I believe with a lot of the pioneers of our craft. Still used today by some..........

 

[manwon]

Many things can come in to play........
You can have a blank on exactly dead centers at both ends but if the blank has warp out at the center of the blank it will no longer be on the center line of the blank. The worst case is when you end up with a blank that has the longest and shortest point next to each other.........forget about getting them all even without doing some scraping and sanding.

A lot of setups are done with a small (.003 to.005) final clean up cut when building the blank and I myself have lost count or been distracted by the phone or whatever and maybe forgot to do that clean up pass in one of the point grooves....................and it doesn't show up till you are turn them taper.

There are many reasons why things happen.......the most important for asthetics is that they look good after the final pass.


<~~~don't over think yourself into a box..............

Thanks very much for the insight, and Tap Tap Tap for the following statement <~~~don't over think yourself into a box..............[/QUOTE] nothing could be more true!!!!!

Have a great day!!!

 

[rhncue]

could you tell me who these other cuemakers were who were building up to his standards?

why was he the only one who had a real waiting list?

its funny 2 originals from 73 showed up at the houston show, from a pool room owner from california who had trouble getting him to make them until a champ put in a good word for him?????

Where to begin. Balabushka started converting cues in 1959-60. As far as anyone knows, he never built a single cue in his life from scratch. Harvey Martin had been building them since the 20's. Ernie Gutierrez (Gina Cue) 1961, Tad Koharra (Tad Cues) 63, Paradise 48, Craig Peterson 62, Burt Schrager 64, Ernie Baldor 64, Burton Spain 65, Rambow 1915, Verl Horn 1961. There of coarse are many others who started building cues a little later but still while George was converting his such as Szamboti to just name one. I don't believe any of these actual cue makers made to shoddy a product.

Dick

 

[magnetardo]

Where to begin. Balabushka started converting cues in 1959-60. As far as anyone knows, he never built a single cue in his life from scratch. Harvey Martin had been building them since the 20's. Ernie Gutierrez (Gina Cue) 1961, Tad Koharra (Tad Cues) 63, Paradise 48, Craig Peterson 62, Burt Schrager 64, Ernie Baldor 64, Burton Spain 65, Rambow 1915, Verl Horn 1961. There of coarse are many others who started building cues a little later but still while George was converting his such as Szamboti to just name one. I don't believe any of these actual cue makers made to shoddy a product.

Dick

Well said.

 

[classiccues]

Tired of the B.S. and we ain't talking Burton Spain

Yes, George Balabushka didn't make his own blanks. Why? Because there were better blanks available then he could make in his garage space. No one disputes he bought out blanks. But for the record, Paradise bought all his blanks and converted house cues also. Even Rambow used titlists that were made in a Brunswick factory long after he left.
Now RHN was nice enough to provide a list of guys doing work on par at that time frame. He also stated Bushka's were not heard of in California, I disagree and am providing proof to reject such a bogus claim.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/az_fun/gb_letter_1_a.jpg

This first letter was an order from the Spectors. Yes, you know the same, as in Phil. The date 1967, location, Beverly Hills, last I looked that was in California. You can clearly read what was being said about Balabushka in 1967. Long before the Color of Money came out. The Spectors didn't order a Harvey Martin, but he was THE big name in California, right? Read the 4th paragraph.. "you are master of the art". I don't think any other testimonials are needed at this point, but I am thorough before I make ludicrous statements.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/az_fun/gb_letter_2_a.jpg

This letter is from Irving Crane. Yes that Irving Crane. "I doubt there is anyone available anywhere that could have done a better job" Notice the date of the letter 1964. But how? The man didn't build his own blanks, he must have been making junk, but it was World Champion junk.

Let me say, I could post quite a few more of these but I think this about covers it. What I can say from experience when a cuemaker puts down Balabushka, it is usually because of one thing. Lets just say, that Bushka made by far the best cue of his time, period. There were people playing with them from coast to coast. His fame was not gained by the Color of Money, his name is in the Color of Money because of his fame before the movie.

Have a nice day...

JV

 

[magnetardo]

Yes, George Balabushka didn't make his own blanks. Why? Because there were better blanks available then he could make in his garage space. No one disputes he bought out blanks. But for the record, Paradise bought all his blanks and converted house cues also. Even Rambow used titlists that were made in a Brunswick factory long after he left.
Now RHN was nice enough to provide a list of guys doing work on par at that time frame. He also stated Bushka's were not heard of in California, I disagree and am providing proof to reject such a bogus claim.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/az_fun/gb_letter_1_a.jpg

This first letter was an order from the Spectors. Yes, you know the same, as in Phil. The date 1967, location, Beverly Hills, last I looked that was in California. You can clearly read what was being said about Balabushka in 1967. Long before the Color of Money came out. The Spectors didn't order a Harvey Martin, but he was THE big name in California, right? Read the 4th paragraph.. "you are master of the art". I don't think any other testimonials are needed at this point, but I am thorough before I make ludicrous statements.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/az_fun/gb_letter_2_a.jpg

This letter is from Irving Crane. Yes that Irving Crane. "I doubt there is anyone available anywhere that could have done a better job" Notice the date of the letter 1964. But how? The man didn't build his own blanks, he must have been making junk, but it was World Champion junk.

Let me say, I could post quite a few more of these but I think this about covers it. What I can say from experience when a cuemaker puts down Balabushka, it is usually because of one thing. Lets just say, that Bushka made by far the best cue of his time, period. There were people playing with them from coast to coast. His fame was not gained by the Color of Money, his name is in the Color of Money because of his fame before the movie.

Have a nice day...

JV

I agree with Dickie that there were just as good cuemakers out during bushkas time, I do not mean that as a knock against bushka whatsoever, just that there were many other guys making quality cues.

 

[Dman]

All I know is in the late sixties and early seventies, Balabushka was the "TOP" name cue maker to "OWN" down here in Texas and and not only was there a wait list, but if he did not know you as a "player" he wasn't making you nothing either. I can only remember a couple of people down here at the time who he would sell to. I was just starting to play as a youngster and I grew up playing and later running around with a player here in Fort Worth, Billy Dan Rogers, and He was one of the few I knew that Balabushka would build for around here.

You could find some of the other makers all over the place. I remember around the same time, few people down here had heard much of Tad.

About that same time, My uncle and I ordered 20 Basic Tads with 2 shafts for around 110.00 each and 20.00 for the extra shafts!! and we had all of them them in short order. I wish I still had ONE OF THOSES. Not much of a wait Time like Balabushka. U.J. Puckett was still playing with one of those we brought in to Fort Worth ,when he passed away.

So I know Balabushka was "hot" then. I don't know how much earlier as I was only around 12 or 13 at the time.

 

[Dman]

And JV, thanks for the posted letters! Great history in those my friend.
Dan

 

[jayman]

I received this cue today from one of our members. The gentleman requested that I refinish this cue for him. I suspect that the cue ia a very early Huebler cue, however, I have not had time to contact Paul yet.

I understand how to complete the refinish on this cue, and how to build a tenon and properly re-asemble it at the A-joint.

Note: the A-joint came apart when I removed the cues wrap!!

My questions concern, first who made it, and has anybody ever seen an A-joint assembled in this manner, and if so why?

Here are the photo's!!

View attachment 55512

View attachment 55513

View attachment 55514

Oh and by the way, the shaft has a plastic insert like Hueber uses.

Manwon,

That may be a mid 1970's "Slade" cue. from what i can see in the pictures it looks like one. they typically had a derlin butcap and an implex joint collar. and a 5/16 x 18 pin. with a nylon shaft insert. if it has the original buttcap it should have had an old english "S" engraved on it.
If it doesnt have a derlin buttcap, it may be a realy early huebler that had the meucci sticker on it. that has been peeled off.

Jayman.

View attachment 55871

View attachment 55872

 

[classiccues]

And JV, thanks for the posted letters! Great history in those my friend.
Dan

Dan,
Thanks.. and to further everyone's knowledge base, early Gina's were also mostly converted titlists, and Tad was known to make east coast cues BEFORE he made Ginaesque cues. We have had Tads that were titlist AND had the clear window in the butt sleeve with MOP inlays, from his earliest works. Martin made his own screws, Tad I believe still has the dies for this. Back then, yes, you had regional cuemakers, no internet, when someone like Bushka achieved that nationwide status it wasn't an accident.
Were there other good cues? I am sure there were. But like I said they were regional. Rocky Tillis, I hear him talked about all the time. But in NJ, I never saw one, ever. Verl Horn, I was introduced to him through Randy Andersen. but never saw a cue from him till I ordered one. Before the internet, before the Blue Books and before the Billiard Encyclopedia cuemaking was definitely a regional occupation. Those that broke those boundaries, did so on merit, and a good product.

JV

 

[manwon]

Manwon,

That may be a mid 1970's "Slade" cue. from what i can see in the pictures it looks like one. they typically had a derlin butcap and an implex joint collar. and a 5/16 x 18 pin. with a nylon shaft insert. if it has the original buttcap it should have had an old english "S" engraved on it.
If it doesnt have a derlin buttcap, it may be a realy early huebler that had the meucci sticker on it. that has been peeled off.

Jayman.

View attachment 55871

View attachment 55872

Thanks for the information Jayman, however, the cue had a solid wood Butt Capp which was broken. The gentleman from this forum sent me the pieces, along with the broken ring when he shipped me the cue for refinish.

Have a great day!!!!!!