Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

[sjm]

i don't know really how to measure the importance of instructors. the best young players in my part of europe don't have coaches or tutors in that sense, that part seems more organic here. monkey see, monkey do, and they tend to have other high level players in their clubs who they always practice and match up with. and these kids do watch a lot of pool too, both youtube and eurotour/kozoom.

i know that russia had a national coach for a while, maybe poland does too. other than that i don't know how prevalent it is. the technical aspects have never been trade secrets over here.

Much truth in what you say. Studying the game is a big part of the equation. One thing I always noticed about the young Shane Van Boening is that he often sweated matches after being eliminated from a tournament. Even Efren used to say that watching other matches often gave him some new ideas to toy around with. Keep watching what others do, and you'll have a bigger library of shots to choose from when you're the one at the table.

A good example of a very successful national coach is Alex Lely, who coached the players from the Netherlands for a few years. Alex' tutelage was a big factor in Niels Feijen finally getting over the finish line at the WPA World 9-ball Championship in 2014.

 

[telinoz]

Are there any pool academies in the USA?
Any national training programs?
Any form of sports grants, funding at state or federal level?

If the answer to all is NO, there is the problem.

 

[sjm]

Are there any pool academies in the USA?
Any national training programs?
Any form of sports grants, funding at state or federal level?

If the answer to all is NO, there is the problem.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the UK has any of these for pool either.

Yet, the UK has produced Appleton, Shaw, Boyes, Peach and Melling. Between them, they've won 3 World 9-ball Championships, a World 9-ball bronze, a World 10-ball Championship, a World 10-ball bronze, three US Open 9-ball Championships, a US Open 9-ball silver, a Derby City 9-ball Championship, several Derby City 10-ball Championships, a World 8-ball Championship and a World Chinese 8-ball Championship.

 

[telinoz]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the UK has any of these for pool either.

Yet, the UK has produced Appleton, Shaw, Boyes, Peach and Melling. Between them, they've won 3 World 9-ball Championships, a World 9-ball bronze, a World 10-ball Championship, a World 10-ball bronze, three US Open 9-ball Championships, a US Open 9-ball silver, a Derby City 9-ball Championship, several Derby City 10-ball Championships, a World 8-ball Championship and a World Chinese 8-ball Championship.

True, I was referring more to how Snooker works.

With those guys, they have had access to Snooker and 2 shot pool.
A lot of high quality competition to keep yourself playing well.
Across mutiple cuesports disciplines.

I think other sports that have good junior programs, a good structure have already shown how well this model works. Pool is way behind, everywhere, not just USA.
Europe and asia, putting the effort in it seems.
The results speak for themselves.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Does Europe have leagues that

A. play primarily on tables smaller than 9'
B. reward sandbagging

 

[Swighey]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the UK has any of these for pool either.

Yet, the UK has produced Appleton, Shaw, Boyes, Peach and Melling. Between them, they've won 3 World 9-ball Championships, a World 9-ball bronze, a World 10-ball Championship, a World 10-ball bronze, three US Open 9-ball Championships, a US Open 9-ball silver, a Derby City 9-ball Championship, several Derby City 10-ball Championships, a World 8-ball Championship and a World Chinese 8-ball Championship.

Those guys saw an opportunity at a time when it was much easier to transition from snooker or English pool to 9 Ball. The days of Steve Davis, who didn't even practice 9 Ball, competing on an almost level playing field against the top 20 pros are long gone. The money in 9 Ball was better than English pool (particularly during the first Matchroom era) and more reliable than grinding away trying to get a spot on the snooker tour. The depth in 9 Ball (and other versions of the 9ft game) is so much greater now, in part due to increased knowledge of the game at all levels alongside its rise from a bar room/hustling game to a serious sport. Having said that, the depth in English pool has also gone through the roof (we might see one or two of these players having their moment in the Sun this year by going fairly deep in a Matchroom tournament) - but I think the transition to becoming a "top top" player will take longer than it used to and therefore might not be such a worthwhile investment of time. I don't yet see any youngsters from the UK coming through to fill the boots of our world beaters (There will of course always be exceptions such as a Chris Melling type of player who is so naturally talented that he will never be too far behind the best players in whichever cue sport he chooses in any era).

 

[sjm]

Those guys saw an opportunity at a time when it was much easier to transition from snooker or English pool to 9 Ball. The days of Steve Davis, who didn't even practice 9 Ball, competing on an almost level playing field against the top 20 pros are long gone. The money in 9 Ball was better than English pool (particularly during the first Matchroom era) and more reliable than grinding away trying to get a spot on the snooker tour. The depth in 9 Ball (and other versions of the 9ft game) is so much greater now, in part due to increased knowledge of the game at all levels alongside its rise from a bar room/hustling game to a serious sport. Having said that, the depth in English pool has also gone through the roof (we might see one or two of these players having their moment in the Sun this year by going fairly deep in a Matchroom tournament) - but I think the transition to becoming a "top top" player will take longer than it used to and therefore might not be such a worthwhile investment of time. I don't yet see any youngsters from the UK coming through to fill the boots of our world beaters (There will of course always be exceptions such as a Chris Melling type of player who is so naturally talented that he will never be too far behind the best players in whichever cue sport he chooses in any era).

Thanks for a most insightful post.

 

[ribdoner]

my sources yes, Europe has passed Asia in pool prowess by pubik hair, however, it will be interesting to visit this topic again in a year or two after Asians have been out and about for a while

 

[JohnnyOzone]

Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

As one who has long placed the Asian players on a pedestal, I never thought I’d ever have to consider this possibility, but I’m starting to believe that Europe has passed Asia as the best pool playing continent.

At the US Open 9-ball in September, the last four standing were Biado, Yapp, Oi and Orcullo, so Asia was the story there. At the International, Ouschan won the 9-ball over Orcullo in the final while Filler won the10-ball over Immonen in the final.

In 2022, it hasn’t gone well at all for Asia. At the Derby City 9-ball, the last five standing were Sanchez-Ruiz, Filler, Garcia, He and Shaw. At the Derby City 10-ball, the last four standing were Filler, Gorst, Immonen and Shaw. At the Arizona Open, the last four standing were Gorst, Garcia, Fortunski, and Sanchez- Ruiz. The last four standing at the Las Vegas Open were Yapp, Szewczyck, Zielinski, and Immonen. Finally, at the World 10-ball, the last four standing were Szewczyck, Tevez, Kaci and Shaw. Yes, Europe has been dominating the play in 2022 to this point.

Of course, COVID affected Asia more than Europe, so that’s an extenuating circumstance here. Similarly, the absence of Gorst and Orcullo from major tournament play of late obscures our sense of things. The Chinese players haven't returned yet. Perhaps a year from now, the Chinese, Taiwanese and Filipinos will all return to their peak form and Asians will reestablish their long-term designation as the best in the world.

All that said, I think I’m ready to proclaim, not without some reservations, that Europe is now the top pool playing continent in the world.

What’s your opinion?

Not even close, if you count all the Chinese 8 ball players. Those guys are superhuman

 

[AtLarge]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the UK has any of these for pool either.

Yet, the UK has produced Appleton, Shaw, Boyes, Peach and Melling. Between them, they've won 3 World 9-ball Championships, a World 9-ball bronze, a World 10-ball Championship, a World 10-ball bronze, three US Open 9-ball Championships, a US Open 9-ball silver, a Derby City 9-ball Championship, several Derby City 10-ball Championships, a World 8-ball Championship and a World Chinese 8-ball Championship.

Don't forget Mark Gray and the 3 women!

 

[T@BP]

Does Europe have leagues that

A. play primarily on tables smaller than 9'
B. reward sandbagging

If we would place a 7 foot table at our poolrooms, parents would think ohh great, lets bring our kids next Friday, they got baby pool tables now.

I notice, for the last 20 years or so, almost no one is cash gambling any more, not even small money, even if a 700 fargo plays vs a 550 fargo for hours there is no money involved.

 

[sjm]

Don't forget Mark Gray and the 3 women!

I didn't forget them. My post was about pool instruction in the UK. All of these (Gray, K Fisher, A Fisher and K Corr) are products of the UK snooker instruction system, not pool. Gray competed at snooker for quite some time before trying pool, which he played with a snooker cue. The three ladies all gave up snooker for pool and all of them learned to play pool AFTER they moved to America.

On the other hand, top 10 WPBA player of many years Sarah Ellerby would qualify as having learned her pool in the UK. Like Shaw, Boyes, Melling and Appleton, she has her roots in English eight ball.

 

[skogstokig]

my sources yes, Europe has passed Asia in pool prowess by pubik hair, however, it will be interesting to visit this topic again in a year or two after Asians have been out and about for a while

that's about how i see it as well. we have only seen the return of a few asians. the ko bros and chang didn't impress much, but maybe that says more about the importance of staying in tournament action than it says about the state of pool in europe vs asia. just look at nayuki oi, he's constantly played in tournaments and placed high. few would argue that he's fundamentally a better player than the former mentioned taiwanese.

i still expect the taiwanese, plus wu, haitao, zheng, etc to be a major factor in the coming 9-ball tour

 

[Geosnookery]

Not even close, if you count all the Chinese 8 ball players. Those guys are superhuman

True. Chinese 8 ball is ‘the’ billiard sport of skill after Snooker. It eclipses anything in Europe or North America in participants and viewership.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I notice, for the last 20 years or so, almost no one is cash gambling any more, not even small money, even if a 700 fargo plays vs a 550 fargo for hours there is no money involved.

I know there are Euros that will gamble. But I also think there is a greater chance of seeing Albin and Kaci play a long a set with no money involved than there would be of Shane and Sky playing each other.

 

[jokrswylde]

So by my count, there were 8 North Americans in the final 32 of the recent world 10 ball, or 25% of all who made the final draw. Now that is not even counting the Euro's who have lived here for multiple decades who by all intents and purposes should be counted for the US (much as Alex and Canada. )

That is also not counting Sky(who I think would agree with me that his performance in this tourney is not commensurate with his ability), Billy, Trex, or Corey Duel, who IMO are a threat to go deep in any tourney they enter.

I guess I fail to see this huge gap between continents. Is there a gap, sure. Especially if you talk about recent winners. Fedor and Josh and Albin seem to be winning everything nowadays. But that does not diminish SVB or sky who consistently make it to the final 16 or 8.

Maybe, when considering the levels, the elite level talent gap is wider...meaning those 750 and up FR and up. ( I use 750 because a pro once told me that there is not a "nickel's worth of difference between a 750 FR and a 820"

I would imagine there are just as many 650-749 Americans as any other country....

 

[Tin Man]

To those who have blamed a deficit in instruction as to the status of US pool I have a few comments:

1) Not all instruction is designed to breed world champions. 99.999% of players who compete in pool are not trying to become world champions. The vast, vast majority are simply trying to improve. Beginners are looking for help pocketing and with basic cue ball. Intermediate players are trying to improve their cue ball and patterns. Advanced players need help uncovering their leaks and fine tuning their cue ball, patterns, mental game, break, and yes, defense and kicking.

Because the vast majority of those seeking instruction are amateur, the vast majority of instruction is geared towards helping amateur players. If an instructor specializes in helping beginners develop proper technique I don't think it's fair to hold them responsible for the shortcomings of a few pro players they don't know. The fact is that if someone truly specialized in helping top pros get from 780 to 800+ they would have a demographic to market to of about 10 players, most of which wouldn't be interested in training with them, and none of whom could afford to pay enough to support an instructor when they can't support themselves.

2) Shot selection and moving isn't something players learn in an academy and isn't how most players rise to the top. Most players that make it start with a simple combination of skills: They have enough desire to walk through walls, they shoot super straight, they have an effective break, and they have enough cue ball and pattern knowledge to keep and angle and stay off the rail. That is it. They usually don't move anywhere near the veterans on the tour. Shaw, Filler and SVB follow this pattern. I remember SVB lost 70% of the moving games against Alex in their sets but won due to his break and firepower. Shaw had relatively weak patterns and cue ball in 2015. Etc.

What happened in all of these cases is the player made it to the top due to firepower and desire, but then after being at the top for a few years and playing against the elite they picked up the rest of these skills little by little. Learning the moving game is more dependent on consistent international competition, and that is where the US is lacking.

Additional thoughts:

I think to have a roster of US players over 800 Fargo that move with the top international players is less about a lack of instruction, and more about a lack of participation. When people have compared women to men in pool the most convincing evidence points to any skill discrepancies as stemming from the difference in the number of women and men who compete. Sorting by country is no different. To figure out the discrepancy between 800+ players by country, just look at the discrepancy of the number of players who are playing all of the international events full time. In the US I can only think of a few US players that are competing full time and seriously trying to get to the top.

I think a better question is why do we have so few players playing full time? We have to trace it back earlier and earlier. I don't have all of the answers but I have a few suspicions. Those who say the opportunity for junior players to thrive are definitely on to something. If we are going to have top US players they need to get there young, while they still have the freedom to travel internationally and aren't burdened by responsibility. I do agree training juniors and supporting them in their travel is a big deal.

Outside of that I think that incentives come into play. The sacrifice to try to play world class pool is so great and yields so little it would make more sense to question why anyone does it rather than why any do not. I'm not sure what the state of things are in Poland, China, or the Philippines are to where a number of players are chasing this path. But in the US our quality of life available for a normal person is pretty good, and it is a lot to sacrifice to go all in on pool. Is it possible that hardship breeds greatness in competition? What if the only way to increase US representation on the top level was to drastically lower our quality of life and have our children living in hardship? Would that make sense to do?

These last few paragraphs are just musings. Honestly I don't know what it would take to get the US competitive at the highest levels. I just don't feel it is because I am not pushing the 500-675 Fargo Rate amateurs I work with in the right direction. As for the 13 year olds I train with who are showing threat to the future I do make a point of working on the moving side of the game regularly, but I can't train on skills past the level I personal understand, which isn't at the absolute highest level.

 

[Swighey]

I know there are Euros that will gamble. But I also think there is a greater chance of seeing Albin and Kaci play a long a set with no money involved than there would be of Shane and Sky playing each other.

I see this as a problem if players want to improve (although not a problem per se - I'm a better money player than tournament player and it can have its advantages, but I would rather be the opposite). The fact that Albin and Kaci will play a long set for no money tells us that they both want to win but more importantly they want to improve (there is always room for it) by playing in non-tournament conditions against players of a similar level - and they can say stuff like "what would you have done there" after a rack and learn from each other's strengths . I can understand an elite player in any sport playing on the side for money because it's fun but I just can't get my head around them making it the main focus. Money play inherently has little to do with playing your best - it's about exploiting the other guy's weaknesses at the right time.

 

[realkingcobra]

Given that the toy tables (AKA bar boxes) dominate the local American pool scene on the local and amateur levels, with few 9' table rooms available within easy travel distance even in some of our major cities, it's not surprising that the talent pool here for real pool (i.e. pool played on 9' or 10' tables) is fast evaporating. High rents and our instant gratification culture make an American pool comeback a real long shot.

Weak excuse, many other countries have 7fts as well, its the gambling that is killing American tournament players!!

 

[hang-the-9]

Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

As one who has long placed the Asian players on a pedestal, I never thought I’d ever have to consider this possibility, but I’m starting to believe that Europe has passed Asia as the best pool playing continent.

At the US Open 9-ball in September, the last four standing were Biado, Yapp, Oi and Orcullo, so Asia was the story there. At the International, Ouschan won the 9-ball over Orcullo in the final while Filler won the10-ball over Immonen in the final.

In 2022, it hasn’t gone well at all for Asia. At the Derby City 9-ball, the last five standing were Sanchez-Ruiz, Filler, Garcia, He and Shaw. At the Derby City 10-ball, the last four standing were Filler, Gorst, Immonen and Shaw. At the Arizona Open, the last four standing were Gorst, Garcia, Fortunski, and Sanchez- Ruiz. The last four standing at the Las Vegas Open were Yapp, Szewczyck, Zielinski, and Immonen. Finally, at the World 10-ball, the last four standing were Szewczyck, Tevez, Kaci and Shaw. Yes, Europe has been dominating the play in 2022 to this point.

Of course, COVID affected Asia more than Europe, so that’s an extenuating circumstance here. Similarly, the absence of Gorst and Orcullo from major tournament play of late obscures our sense of things. The Chinese players haven't returned yet. Perhaps a year from now, the Chinese, Taiwanese and Filipinos will all return to their peak form and Asians will reestablish their long-term designation as the best in the world.

All that said, I think I’m ready to proclaim, not without some reservations, that Europe is now the top pool playing continent in the world.

What’s your opinion?

Nice collection of finishes, but maybe should also add in the % of the field that was from the areas. Maybe there were no, or few, players from a certain area there to get in the money. We can probably go by say the top 20 or 30 in the Fargo ratings as to what area is best as much as tournament finishes since one follows the other and Fargo is easier to track overall.