Has Gambling Hurt Pools Popularity?

[DaveK]

I echo the fact that today's pros are not only the lowest paid, but they are also the most under-appreciated professional sports players in the world.

I beg to differ. Here are some videos of the marvelous game of curling. The first three include some of the finest pro's in the world making shots that will astound you pool players. They have spent much time on the ice honing their skills. Are they appreciated ? In some small circles, yes, but not like the major sports. Are they the lowest paid ? Possibly, one would have to do some research, but a very good team might earn $75K each per year, almost all have 'real' jobs, and many loose money on the tournament trail. And this from a sport that IS in the Olympics, has TV coverage (minor in the USA I'd guess, and problematic elsewhere at times, but they do get coverage), and many many more league players than tournament pros.

If you think it's tough to hit a 4.25" pocket with a 2.25" ball from 6 feet away, and think that Simonis is fast, you've never tried to slide/masse/curl a 44 lb rock across 130 feet of ice to hit a 10" rock (on the proper side with the proper thickness to make the shot) !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vpfUOQKbLA&
Here’s the equivalent to a 3 ball combo (45s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_4sHr2oe6k
1.5 minute trailer from Hot Shots 2006, many amazing “combos” and “caroms” ... watch closely, some rocks go 'backwards' after two caroms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idSdnubrlds
An outstanding double takeout (a brilliant long difficult carom to pool players) made by the US against Canada in the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympics … great overdub too (24s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNOGhdlzJ1U
This too is a sport you can play while drinking and smoking, just like pool and golf. Search for the other “Drinkers with a Curling Problem” video fellas . Also, check the credits comrades (47s)

Of course I’m just a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfYM6lF3yxI

Dave, not sure about curling hustlers but thinks there may be a few side bets nwo and then

 

[whitey2]

Hot Dog Eating vs. Pool

Come on, "Hot Dog Eating" requires abundant skill and years
of dedicated practice and study. I suggest you read:

"The 99 Critical Bites of Hot Dog Eating"

"Eat Your Best Hot Dogs"

 

[Johnnyt]

For a long time I thought the gambling was hurting pool, but in the last few years I think that show casing the gambling might be the way to promote it. Johnnyt

 

[poolplayer2093]

Who'd play Poker for free? Gambling hasn't hurt pool, the players have hurt pool. Attitude, attitude, attitude. Splitting, dumping, whining, laying down, all have hurt pool. Money is involved, here.

couldn't have put it better. i've heard it said that the only thing that counts is leaving with the cash. but setting up lock up games deffinetly shines a negative light on the game. just about everyone i know plays poker because it's a level playing field but because of things like dumping and whining, and to a lesser extent weaker players being preyed upon

 

[Jimmy M.]

They were gambling on pool before it was called "pool" (in fact, rumor is that the name "pool" was derived from a "gambling 'pool'"). There are some personalities that I have no doubt do nothing to help the game, but I don't believe that the act of gambling itself is hurting its popularity. The most popular sports in the world are gambled upon heavily. There's more action on the golf course than there is in the pool room. One of pool's biggest problems, in my opinion, is that it just isn't a great spectator sport; at least, not when compared to the other sports that are popular in this country. For whatever reason, I think the American sports audience just isn't attracted to pool as a spectator sport. There is a lot of finger pointing when discussing why pool isn't the popular sport that we'd all like to see it be, but I'm not sure how much blame can be assigned to any one group of people (gamblers, players, promoters, etc.). Pool, however you want to dress it up, is a tough sell to the American sports viewer.

I keep specifying "American" because, as we all know, pool is more popular in some other countries.

 

[JAM]

...That being said, what is really being discussed in this thread is perceptions of pool hall gambling. Now whether you like to acknowledge it or not those perceptions described to you by several people in this thread are out there, irrespective of how much or how little recent first hand experience the people who happen to be telling you what those perceptions are, might have. Those perceptions could in fact be described to you by someone who had never gambled on or even played pool in their life.

Re-read Post No. 34.

You also seem to jump rather quickly to the conclusion that when forum posters are talking about how gambling contributes to the negative image of pool they are talking about head to head gambling matches between high profile upper echelon players. I put it to you that most of them aren't referring to this at all, I certainly wasn't.

When it is stated that "pool players" are the reason why pool as a sport is in decline, I did not discern a distinction made between high-profile, upper echelon players in any post on this thread.

The people who place the blame on pool players are the same ones who do not desire to pay a spectator's fee at tournaments. To illustrate the point, the Glass City Open, which was held in Toledo every November, closed its doors, one reason being the spectators do not want to pay what they consider a high spectator's fee. It has been posted numerous times right here on this forum that some posters would like pool to stay the way it is, stuck in the mud. That way, they can watch Efren Reyes up front and close for free, and no other sport offers this type of opportunity to see champion-caliber sports figures.

If those within the American pool culture do not desire to pay monies to see pool players compete, it is ironic that these same penny-pinchers blame pool players for pool's demise, IMHO. Promoters and pool players, in their eyes, should take a loss to help pool's image.

However, with your own experience of the pool scene you must have some more positive input to give on this....... so as your last post before you drop the subject I (and I suspect some others) would genuinely like to know what changes, if any, you personally would like to see in pool hall gambling habits and practices in order to help promote the better image of pool you would like to see achieved as one rung on the ladder towards completion of the long road to pool pros getting better rewards, which you clearly and understandably passionately believe in. Perhaps on the other hand you think there is no negative contribution to pool's image by gambling and its related behaviour patterns in pool halls and that nothing needs to change in that respect. Right now pool pros have a product to sell which nobody seems to want and they and the pool industry movers and shakers are surely in no position to totally discount any exploration of factors that might be contributing to that situation, including gambling and how it might possibly be affecting image. Who knows, proper exploration of this might even lead to the conclusion that what is needed for the future of pool as an entertainment which will attract television viewers and sponsors is MORE gambling not less. Ignoring it as a potential issue isn't really an option.

Rather than enter into a debate to address your concerns, please re-read Post No. 34 if you would like to address your inquiries. I had already responded previously.

If those within pool's own culture do not want to pay monies to see pool at its finest, then how in the world do you think it would be possible to sell this product to mainstream America?

My suggestion to pool players today is to survival. Too often I have seen players go bust attending tournaments and not have enough monies to pay the rent. There are several pro-caliber players I know of today who have left the sport because of economics. Those who sought employment incurred difficulties when juggling a job and competing professionally.

Exhibitions cross-country may be one way to promote the sport, but I can assure you that when you take into account the expenses traveling from place to place, it is difficult to turn a profit. Of course, there may be one school of thought that these pool players should do it for free in an effort to promote the sport, but pool players need to eat, too.

Many pool players GIVE AWAY autographs and pose for pictures at various events, only to later see the products on eBay for sale, and then people wonder why some do not desire to give out autographs for free.

Today, the WPBA has to pay ESPN to broadcast their tournaments. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The business platform of the WPBA is successful, but when I read about the majority of the pros, who are unsponsored, nobody is getting rich on playing pool professionally. They keep going because of a strong passion for the game, most of them.

When I first got back into this racket, I exerted a great deal of effort to promote the sport and gave away many items that I paid for to others, FREE. Today, I help support my counterpart by attending charity events for FREE in an effort to promote the sport. I used to post here on this forum about every single pool event I attended in an effort to promote the support. I shared my photographs and didn't care if anybody copied them, sometimes giving them away for FREE. Outside of emptying my bank account, I have nothing else to give away for FREE. Recently, I FedEx'd, at my expense, an autographed photo to a fan in New Jersey, never getting a thank you or an acknowledgement or any response.

So, when you ask what can I do to effect a change, I've done everything within my power to help promote the sport, but now I think I would like to sit back and enjoy the show. However, when I read that it is the fault of "pool players," I will continue to stand up in the minority and state my opinion that, in fact, it is not the "pool players." In fact, for all of the reasons stated above, the culprit, if you will, isn't the pool players at all. It's the ones complaining about the pool players who don't do anything to promote the sport, and remember, they like it that way.

Dance, monkey, dance, but make sure you do it for FREE!

JAM

 

[memikey]

.......So, when you ask what can I do to effect a change, I've done everything within my power to help promote the sport, but now I think I would like to sit back and enjoy the show.

JAM

Whoa up there! What's all that about?

I didn't ask or even imply anything remotely of that sort..........I especially didn't ask what YOU can do nor did I specifically ask about promoting the sport. Bearing in mind your experience I very respectfully asked what, if anything, you would personally like to see happen to improve the image with special regard to gambling aspects,..........the question which I actually asked and the question you have suggested I have asked are two very different things, poles apart in both meaning and implication.

You have for reasons unknown to me responded to a perfectly reasonable general question about what you would like to see happen with a reply which resembles a "how dare you ask me what I can do after all I've already done!" response and which would lead anyone just reading your response to think I'd insulted you rather than complimented you by simply seeking your experienced opinion. Nobody asked what you had done or what you could do........and it would have been very cheeky for anyone to have asked such a thing

Thanks for the other thoughts in your answer. After re-reading everything I still don't see Fats or anyone else, most certainly not me, being disparaging in this thread about any gambling professional pool players or gambling at professional tournaments or high profile match-ups for money. Fats and others have mainly disparaged the overall culture surrounding pool and pool halls and ordinary common or garden pool players. They seem to think that it is small/medium time gambling, brawling, cheating and hustling between drunks and seedy characters amongst street level players which harms the image most, together with a bad history of scamming by tournament organisers and promoters. Professional pool players aren't even on most peoples horizon in that respect, so there is no need in this thread to ride to the defence of something they haven't been accused of in the first place.

To you 'pool players' seems to normally mean professionals. To those I've just referred to 'pool players ' generally seems to mean something quite different and perhaps that has also led to some confusion in this thread.

It is clear that you are passionate about your views on the professional pool players career prospects, probably rightly so, some of us will even help you tilt at those windmills. We are not the enemy here. We are the ones who care because we love the game. The desirability of pool pros being able to earn a better living is ofcourse a worthy topic for discussion but it isn't really what this thread is about. The closest this thread gets to that is in discussing if the gambling culture affects the overall image badly enough to in turn affect the pool pros chances of ever being able to earn a decent living from pool.

Thanks again, for me your views are always worth reading.

 

[Ron Cook]

POOL, back burner to Glory!

I don't know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but gambling is rampant in the Republic of Philippines, where pool is the nation's sport and its players are regarded as icons. Pool players in America are regarded as scum of the earth. And so there, you have it. JAM

The IPT Tour could have changed everything in pool, but having no sponsors other than Kevin was the first major mistake from the start. The scale was too large and the payouts too great. Casinos would have put out thousands of dollars in added money if everything was done right. I once approached Kevin while he was walking with Earl at one of the tournaments and said I can triple your players right now, and triple your audience, then this tour has a chance to survive. I said to him, lets go to 256 players on the men's side of the board and lets put 256 women on their side of the board. Instead of just one board of 150 players.

With 512 players playing we would have about another 2,000 people coming to watch. Go to any major Casino and tell them we will bring 2,500 people to your Casino and they will roll out the red carpet out and pay big bucks. Then to make the tournament work with men and women playing merge the last 8 men standing and the last 8 women standing on a board of 16 players and maybe give the ladies 1 to 2 games then we would have a male / female show down that may work. If you want to have a King of the Hill Tournament you can always do that at the end of the year for men and woman who have won the most money during the year in a slightly different format. With this 512 field of players however, we would have to cut the race back so the tournament can be completed in a week.

Kevin came back with this statement, I want to know who the best players are by having a longer race. I said to him I can make you a list right now and tell you that, the question I should have come back with was, do you want this tour to be successful or not? Then right after the Reno tournament the show was over. As it stands most of the ladies cannot win the tournament and eventually some will fall out and then just men will be on the tour. The other problem you are going to have is just the top 10-20 men are going to win all the money. By going with a shorter race you can have more players and more players will try to get on the tour for they just might have a chance with a shorter race. There is Strength In Numbers and Kevin should have been open to some changes and had the right people been by his side who worked with numbers and dollars his tour could have succeeded.

If there is anyone out there that can get this message back to Kevin he may now be open to the right changes to bring the tour back, which will need the right sales people to gain strong sponsorship from Corporate America. If the IPT Promo film was sent to the right corporations and companies with good followup from a marketing staff, that can, and will make the difference, along with strong added money coming from the Casinos and hotels we might have a chance at the Tour succeeding. If Kevin's TV ratings were strong like he had said they were then Corporate America will get involved! Whatever you do you have to keep a running handle on your expenses and income and only make promises that can be kept, and always let the players know what is going on and ask for their input as well.

I believe Kevin had good intentions but the right planning has to be in place and with his Internet site we can now put the tournament together before the tournament ever starts. Both the players and their guests can be documented before hand and the right changes can bring about the right results.

Just to let you know, I sent in a resume for employment to the IPT Tour for a spot in the marketing department but I never hear a word back since Kevin had the marketing and sponsorships covered! If there any other Kevins out there, a "Professional Pool Players Tour" can be successful and "The Battle of the Sexes is a Great Idea" in this country and across the globe if done right and then pool can finally take its place in history as a great game it is! I was going to save this concept above for my own tournament promotion but I do not have the resources or time alone to make this happen. Given my love of the game I am sharing the above concept with you and I hope there is someone out there that has the financial resources and "vision to see pool finally put in its right place here in the USA" and I would be glad to participate in changing history to put pool back in the spot light!!!

 

[JAM]

...Just to let you know, I sent in a resume for employment to the IPT Tour for a spot in the marketing department but I never hear a word back since Kevin had the marketing and sponsorships covered!....

Very well written post, Ron, and you have some good ideas for sure. Don't feel like the lone soldier, though, about not getting any response back from the IPT. There seemed to be, IMHO, a communications problem from the very get-go, and it went from bad to worse, but that is a topic for another thread.

Most tournaments I have gone to, the majority of the audience consists of friends and family members of the players themselves. So, by having a bigger field as you suggest, this would definitely increase the spectators in attendance. Two examples I would give to illustrate this would be the U.S. Open in Chesapeake Beach, Virginia, and the Joss event at Turning Stone Casino. First-class venues and topnotch players, the seats never seem to fill up the way you would think they should fill up when there is pool at its finest for all to enjoy. BTW, the admission to see the players at the Turning Stone is FREE.

Now let's switch and go to another successful pool happening which is the Derby City Classic in Louisville, Kentucky. The place is packed with players of all caliber as well as spectators. I remember Truman Hogue (a great banks player) and his wife telling me that this is the one event they save up for each year and would never miss it.

Compare the U.S. Open, the Joss event at the Turning Stone Casino, and the Derby City Classic, and there is only one difference, and that is GAMBLING. The DCC is a pool players mecca, and people come from all over the world to Louisville every January.

In sum, for those who believe that gambling is killing pool, maybe they should come to Louisville next year and see it up front and close. If gambling was prohibited, I guarantee you that the DCC would not enjoy the success that is does today. AND, Ron, the DCC has very large player rosters, to include buy-backs. So there you have it!

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

P.S. Here's a shot taken of four pool players at the DCC where gambling is celebrated in all its glory!

 

[JimS]

I think pool is not as popular as we'd like it to be because it takes a lot of time at the table in order to develop any significant level of proficiency. There are many more distractions and attractions these days that draw people away from pool. Video games being among the most obvious.

 

[catscradle]

I think pool is not as popular as we'd like it to be because it takes a lot of time at the table in order to develop any significant level of proficiency. There are many more distractions and attractions these days that draw people away from pool. Video games being among the most obvious.

I agree all the diversionary pasttimes that involve effort rather than just fast-twitch reflexes have been hurt. I've counted a lot more bowling alleys when I was a kid too, at least here in the Northeast. Roller rinks are virtually non-existent, everybody had one within driving distance once. Pool is just another casualty. I was watching an accustats tape from 1993, and Grady was bemoaning, only half joking, what a terrible decision it is for anybody to choose pool as a way to make a living. That was 14 years ago so pools lack of respect and tough times is not a new thing. The glory days were at least 60 years ago. Times for pool players have been better than today and times have been worse than today, but the glory years are sadly gone forever.
JMHO.