Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

[Shawn Armstrong]

Makes me wonder why nobody wanted your cues .

Good lord, dude. Let it go. I made less than 15 cues. All for people who asked me to make them one. And they all still have them. And they aren't for sale. I even had a guy approach me on here saying he had one, and wanted me to build another one.

The reason I don't make cues for a living is because I do far too well in a different profession that doesn't involve me building cues, betting my mortgage on the fickle needs of pool players.

If you want to call me a failed cue maker, go ahead. I still have the lathe. I still repair cues. But I don't rely on it for a living. Nor would I ever want to.

I leave cue making to the geniuses like the posters on AZ, that for the life of me, I can't figure out how they make cues and post 20+ times per day.

Have a great evening

 

[Corwyn_8]

...nonetheless there's genuine differences between these two type pool cues...

Such as...

Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

But, to think that they are matching custom cues on overall quality and wood selection is misguided, in my opinion.

The ONE real advantage that custom cue makers have is time with which to get the very best wood. Hand sorting with an eye to exactly what each piece of wood can be is how craftsman can set their product ahead of people who buy wood by the pallet load. They don't trust some wood salesman to choose their wood for them. Hand picking through the pile for that one truly special piece.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Banks]

Some need custom specs.

Some don't.

Ta-dah.

 

[skins]

..... A cue can be structurally sound, and still hit "bad", in one player's assessment. The next guy who picks up the cue says it hits a tonne.....

If one says that a cue hits "bad" and one says the cue "hits a ton" then there are only two scenarios that are true

1. One of them knows what they're talking about

OR

2. Neither of them knows what they're talking about..... PERIOD

They both can't be right....

......One thing I LOVE about Mr. Josey - TOLERANCES. When you're an international buyer, I don't like shipping my cue back across borders to have shafts made for the cue. It costs me duties, taxes and brokerage. A $200 shaft ends up costing near $400. I could call Keith and he'd make a shaft, and it fit. Dead nuts. Without needing the butt......

It's not the "TOLERANCES" you like of Keith Josey it's his consistent "DIMENSIONS".... As a "former" cue maker Id thought you would have known the difference....

 

[plhlolelnlilx]

I think I owned one of his cues once. If I remember correctly, it swept my floors but straight as an arrow.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

If one says that a cue hits "bad" and one says the cue "hits a ton" then there are only two scenarios that are true

1. One of them knows what they're talking about

OR

2. Neither of them knows what they're talking about..... PERIOD

They both can't be right....



It's not the "TOLERANCES" you like of Keith Josey it's his consistent "DIMENSIONS".... As a "former" cue maker Id thought you would have known the difference....

Nope. I think I used the right word. My first cue from Keith was a sneaky pete. It was the first cue I had with the radial pin. I had also ordered a Colorado cue that was to be a breaker, and a Ted Harris cue, all with radial pins. Keith's fit the tightest of all the joints that the cues had. It was Keith that let me know about the undersized tap from Paul Costain, the guy that owned Uniloc. He also told me he held pretty tight "tolerances" when he did his cue work.

I liked a lot more than the "dimensions". Sometimes, I think you act like a schmuck because you just like to argue. Or perhaps it makes you feel smart. You and Joey should start your own support group. You both suffer from "superiority-itis". Get KMRUNOUT in the group, and I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that coffee clatch.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

If one says that a cue hits "bad" and one says the cue "hits a ton" then there are only two scenarios that are true

1. One of them knows what they're talking about

OR

2. Neither of them knows what they're talking about..... PERIOD

They both can't be right....

Again, you profess to be some cue expert, but you talk completely out of your ass. One size does not fit all. Some people love the soft hit of a Meucci. I personally can't stand it. I like phenolic joints and phenolic ferrules. I love the hit of a Schon. Some people don't. Just because someone thinks their cue hits great, doesn't mean I will. Neither one of us is wrong. We're both right, for us.

You have this God complex, in which you somehow think your opinion is right. Guess what? It's just YOUR opinion. Continue to pimp the cues you think are awesome. Meanwhile, I'll play with what I play with. And please, keep talking down to the rest of us minions the way you always have. If it makes you feel better about yourself, that's all that matters

 

[plhlolelnlilx]

Again, you profess to be some cue expert, but you talk completely out of your ass. One size does not fit all. Some people love the soft hit of a Meucci. I personally can't stand it. I like phenolic joints and phenolic ferrules. I love the hit of a Schon. Some people don't. Just because someone thinks their cue hits great, doesn't mean I will. Neither one of us is wrong. We're both right, for us.

You have this God complex, in which you somehow think your opinion is right. Guess what? It's just YOUR opinion. Continue to pimp the cues you think are awesome. Meanwhile, I'll play with what I play with. And please, keep talking down to the rest of us minions the way you always have. If it makes you feel better about yourself, that's all that matters

Short bus.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[skins]

Again, you profess to be some cue expert, but you talk completely out of your ass. One size does not fit all. Some people love the soft hit of a Meucci. I personally can't stand it. I like phenolic joints and phenolic ferrules. I love the hit of a Schon. Some people don't. Just because someone thinks their cue hits great, doesn't mean I will. Neither one of us is wrong. We're both right, for us.

You have this God complex, in which you somehow think your opinion is right. Guess what? It's just YOUR opinion. Continue to pimp the cues you think are awesome. Meanwhile, I'll play with what I play with. And please, keep talking down to the rest of us minions the way you always have. If it makes you feel better about yourself, that's all that matters

Shawn, you're too funny...The only one talking out of their ass is you buddy. FYI, You're talking to part of the Josey cue team. I know every aspect of how the cues are built because Im part of their construction. Your comment had nothing to do with tolerance and everything to do with dimension...Second, either a cue hits good or it doesn't. PERIOD. Softness, hardness, has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT... Once again you, proclaiming yourself as a cue maker, is actually outing you with every keystroke.. Just too funny. Its obvious YOU have no clue how to tell the differences of cues nor who you're talking to...You're obviously someone who hides behind their keyboard trying to swim with the REAL big fishes having nothing of substance to offer... THAT is a fact and there' no way to "type" your way out of it... Move on...

 

[Bavafongoul]

This Works For Me......

Corwyn_8...........I do not profess to be a cue-maker. I have ordered and owned several production cues.This includes a couple of the Schon Tribute cues and like I wrote, nothing wrong with production cues in general or limited series versions.

When I design a cue, not withstanding that artistic creativity is my strong point, I expect that my cue will get all the required attention to produce it exactly as I want it to turn out. That means the design will be what I specified and the specs are what I asked for. The cue- maker doesn't get to decide how it turns out other than the quality of his workmanship. The shaft weight, the shaft size, the taper is what I picked, not what the cue-maker might ordinarily use. The weight of the cue butt is what I specify and so is the diameter. The cue-maker is responsible for the anatomy of my cue but I get to say what I want and the cue-maker's challenge is to build the cue the way I want.

Jerry Rauenzahn, very early with my last cue build, let me know the butt weight was going to turn out a little heavier than what I specified due to my ring design that called for eight 3mm copper metal rings since I did not want acrylic. I asked Jerry to try to use thinner rings and I didn't care for the prototype he sent me a photo of so we junked the sleeve design completely and started over on a new design........by the way, the weight difference increase for the cue butt was estimated at 11.75 grams heavier than the butt weight max in the weight range I requested.

I am unaware of any production cue company that will indulge any customer's very detailed specifications and will work as hard to satisfy you as some custom cue-makers I have been fortunate to use. They send you photos of mock-up veneers to approve, progress pictures of your cue, feedback on any issues that might interfere or alter the outcome of the requested design, and most of all , pay enormous attention to the quality, age and weight of the different woods they will be using, often special stock set aside for challenging cue builds.

Does my custom cue play differently than a production cue........for me yes, because the feel and hit is different........and I enjoy the difference. However, my cue does not play any different than any cue might for any other player unless they shared the same preferences I do for the cue construction. A custom cue does not enable you to play better........it will encourage and sometimes even inspire some players to try harder.....to try their very best to validate why they own such a nice cue.......but that's about it. There are cheap production cues and expensive ones too........just like there are great custom cue-makers and also some ho-hum ones as well.

There isn't any production cue company I know of that would adhere to a customer's cue specifications or invest the time to build the cue "exactly" the way the customer wants it made. My custom cue-makers are willing and talented enough to build me pool cues the way I requested the cue to be made, not the way they make a cue for every Tom, Dick & Harry pool player type that comes along. A lot of customers don't know what they want and therefore just default to the cue-maker's normal standards. IMO.....that's a lot more reminiscent of production pool cues than custom cues.

Matt B.


p.s. 6 days and counting down to rotator cuff surgery #4..........ugh!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Shawn, you're too funny...The only one talking out of their ass is you buddy. FYI, You're talking to part of the Josey cue team. I know every aspect of how the cues are built because Im part of their construction. Your comment had nothing to do with tolerance and everything to do with dimension...Second, either a cue hits good or it doesn't. PERIOD. Softness, hardness, has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT... Once again you, proclaiming yourself as a cue maker, is actually outing you with every keystroke.. Just too funny. Its obvious YOU have no clue how to tell the differences of cues nor who you're talking to...You're obviously someone who hides behind their keyboard trying to swim with the REAL big fishes having nothing of substance to offer... THAT is a fact and there' no way to "type" your way out of it... Move on...

Yep. Part of the Josey team. You program the inlay machine.

You're crucial to the operation. Where could Keith ever find another guy to make his CNC inlay machine work? Oh yeah, on the nearest street corner.

Dude, your sense of self importance is astonishing. Really.

Oh, and regarding "hiding behind a keyboard", is your name "skins"?

 

[skins]

Yep. Part of the Josey team. You program the inlay machine.

You're crucial to the operation. Where could Keith ever find another guy to make his CNC inlay machine work? Oh yeah, on the nearest street corner.

Dude, your sense of self importance is astonishing. Really.

Oh, and regarding "hiding behind a keyboard", is your name "skins"?

Since you have such a great relationship with Keith, why don't you give him a call and ask HIM how "crucial" my role is. Why guess?? Just too funny Shawn :rotflmao1:... That is your name right?? Another keyboard jockey trying to hang with the big boys. A neophyte getting exposed making my days interesting... Thank you for that Shawn.. Shawn right?? Just making sure.... I guess I should go back to my "street corner"...

 

[Corwyn_8]

That means the design will be what I specified and the specs are what I asked for.

Thanks for the thorough answer. It makes perfect sense that a custom cue maker would make a customized cue. It is a bit outside the current discussion which is about quality. You at least have a sensible reason for choosing a custom cue.

Thank you kindly.

 

[jhanso18]

People like Shawn are the reason I come here so seldom. A person that has no idea what he's talking about, pretending to be an expert... This is a prime candidate for blocking.

 

[one stroke]

Corwyn_8...........I do not profess to be a cue-maker. I have ordered and owned several production cues.This includes a couple of the Schon Tribute cues and like I wrote, nothing wrong with production cues in general or limited series versions.

When I design a cue, not withstanding that artistic creativity is my strong point, I expect that my cue will get all the required attention to produce it exactly as I want it to turn out. That means the design will be what I specified and the specs are what I asked for. The cue- maker doesn't get to decide how it turns out other than the quality of his workmanship. The shaft weight, the shaft size, the taper is what I picked, not what the cue-maker might ordinarily use. The weight of the cue butt is what I specify and so is the diameter. The cue-maker is responsible for the anatomy of my cue but I get to say what I want and the cue-maker's challenge is to build the cue the way I want.

Jerry Rauenzahn, very early with my last cue build, let me know the butt weight was going to turn out a little heavier than what I specified due to my ring design that called for eight 3mm copper metal rings since I did not want acrylic. I asked Jerry to try to use thinner rings and I didn't care for the prototype he sent me a photo of so we junked the sleeve design completely and started over on a new design........by the way, the weight difference increase for the cue butt was estimated at 11.75 grams heavier than the butt weight max in the weight range I requested.

I am unaware of any production cue company that will indulge any customer's very detailed specifications and will work as hard to satisfy you as some custom cue-makers I have been fortunate to use. They send you photos of mock-up veneers to approve, progress pictures of your cue, feedback on any issues that might interfere or alter the outcome of the requested design, and most of all , pay enormous attention to the quality, age and weight of the different woods they will be using, often special stock set aside for challenging cue builds.

Does my custom cue play differently than a production cue........for me yes, because the feel and hit is different........and I enjoy the difference. However, my cue does not play any different than any cue might for any other player unless they shared the same preferences I do for the cue construction. A custom cue does not enable you to play better........it will encourage and sometimes even inspire some players to try harder.....to try their very best to validate why they own such a nice cue.......but that's about it. There are cheap production cues and expensive ones too........just like there are great custom cue-makers and also some ho-hum ones as well.

There isn't any production cue company I know of that would adhere to a customer's cue specifications or invest the time to build the cue "exactly" the way the customer wants it made. My custom cue-makers are willing and talented enough to build me pool cues the way I requested the cue to be made, not the way they make a cue for every Tom, Dick & Harry pool player type that comes along. A lot of customers don't know what they want and therefore just default to the cue-maker's normal standards. IMO.....that's a lot more reminiscent of production pool cues than custom cues.

Matt B.


p.s. 6 days and counting down to rotator cuff surgery #4..........ugh!

Your right about production cues not being build to ones personal specs ,, that's what make custom custom and you pay pretty good to have a one of one built
99.9 pct of players have zero clue what dementions a cue is built to except length and weight
Other than that thier clueless
The OP was is the difference between custom and production negligible and the answer is yes if your comparing high end production cues to the average custom for playability fit and fit and finish
IMHO Mezz has the best joint fit of any cue atleast comparing it to any of the 30 or so customs Iv had , Mezz cut thier teeth on making cue components thier equiptment is top of the line much better than many custom makers equiptment so of corse that leads to tighter fits
I'm not going to bash the many custom cue makers I know who can come close to the quality of a Mezz cue if thier life depended on it but thiers plenty of them
What it comes down to is what you want

1

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

People like Shawn are the reason I come here so seldom. A person that has no idea what he's talking about, pretending to be an expert... This is a prime candidate for blocking.

Then block me. I could care less. I'm not part of the "drinking the custom Kool Aid" crowd.

The people I end up arguing with are also the crowd that thinks using ivory doesn't do any harm to elephants. By that logic alone, I know I'm dealing with the densest 1% of the human population, as they can't see the forest for the trees.

Keep whittling out those $9k sticks that gather dust on your website. And keep driving the Lamborghini. I'll put the remaining $8.7k into my mortgage, and my kids' tuition funds for school. A $9000 ball pocketing instrument doesn't play any better than a $200 ball pocketing instrument. You'd just never admit that, because you need to justify your existence. Your cues are pretty, yes. But for you to say that a company doesn't put out a quality product, after selling 10000+ cues, is laughable. The market will tell a company if they make a good product or not. I have yet to see anyone in these parts playing with your cues. I don't see many custom sticks at all in our pool halls. And we have some very good players. So....your view is in the vast minority of pool players.

You remind me of the motorcycle riders that are decked out in $3k leathers, riding a $20k Ducati, and they don't even tip the bike into corners. Meanwhile, there are guys passing them on 300s, dragging knees. Some people are about the show, and some are about the go.

 

[Type79]

Then block me. I could care less. I'm not part of the "drinking the custom Kool Aid" crowd.

The people I end up arguing with are also the crowd that thinks using ivory doesn't do any harm to elephants. By that logic alone, I know I'm dealing with the densest 1% of the human population, as they can't see the forest for the trees.

Keep whittling out those $9k sticks that gather dust on your website. And keep driving the Lamborghini. I'll put the remaining $8.7k into my mortgage, and my kids' tuition funds for school. A $9000 ball pocketing instrument doesn't play any better than a $200 ball pocketing instrument. You'd just never admit that, because you need to justify your existence. Your cues are pretty, yes. But for you to say that a company doesn't put out a quality product, after selling 10000+ cues, is laughable. The market will tell a company if they make a good product or not. I have yet to see anyone in these parts playing with your cues. I don't see many custom sticks at all in our pool halls. And we have some very good players. So....your view is in the vast minority of pool players.

You remind me of the motorcycle riders that are decked out in $3k leathers, riding a $20k Ducati, and they don't even tip the bike into corners. Meanwhile, there are guys passing them on 300s, dragging knees. Some people are about the show, and some are about the go.

I think the original question that started this thread was a good topic for discussion, but it's difficult to weed through the off-topic vitriol.

I will never own one of the most ambitious customs that cost thousands of dollars, if not ten of thousands, but I do appreciate them. I have appreciation for production cues as well as plain unadorned cues made by top-tier makers.

Everything has it's place.

Yes, some people own cues purely for their artistic merit but many use and play with what some refer-to as "art cues" on a daily basis and as their regular players.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Good lord, dude. Let it go. I made less than 15 cues. All for people who asked me to make them one. And they all still have them. And they aren't for sale. I even had a guy approach me on here saying he had one, and wanted me to build another one.

The reason I don't make cues for a living is because I do far too well in a different profession that doesn't involve me building cues, betting my mortgage on the fickle needs of pool players.

If you want to call me a failed cue maker, go ahead. I still have the lathe. I still repair cues. But I don't rely on it for a living. Nor would I ever want to.

I leave cue making to the geniuses like the posters on AZ, that for the life of me, I can't figure out how they make cues and post 20+ times per day.

Have a great evening

Who said you have to be full-time cue maker to make cues?
One out of 15 asking for another cue wouldn't sustain ithough.
I wonder why they all kept them and not dump them for $200 imports.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Corwyn_8...........I do not profess to be a cue-maker. I have ordered and owned several production cues.This includes a couple of the Schon Tribute cues and like I wrote, nothing wrong with production cues in general or limited series versions.

When I design a cue, not withstanding that artistic creativity is my strong point, I expect that my cue will get all the required attention to produce it exactly as I want it to turn out. That means the design will be what I specified and the specs are what I asked for. The cue- maker doesn't get to decide how it turns out other than the quality of his workmanship. The shaft weight, the shaft size, the taper is what I picked, not what the cue-maker might ordinarily use. The weight of the cue butt is what I specify and so is the diameter. The cue-maker is responsible for the anatomy of my cue but I get to say what I want and the cue-maker's challenge is to build the cue the way I want.

Jerry Rauenzahn, very early with my last cue build, let me know the butt weight was going to turn out a little heavier than what I specified due to my ring design that called for eight 3mm copper metal rings since I did not want acrylic. I asked Jerry to try to use thinner rings and I didn't care for the prototype he sent me a photo of so we junked the sleeve design completely and started over on a new design........by the way, the weight difference increase for the cue butt was estimated at 11.75 grams heavier than the butt weight max in the weight range I requested.

I am unaware of any production cue company that will indulge any customer's very detailed specifications and will work as hard to satisfy you as some custom cue-makers I have been fortunate to use. They send you photos of mock-up veneers to approve, progress pictures of your cue, feedback on any issues that might interfere or alter the outcome of the requested design, and most of all , pay enormous attention to the quality, age and weight of the different woods they will be using, often special stock set aside for challenging cue builds.

Does my custom cue play differently than a production cue........for me yes, because the feel and hit is different........and I enjoy the difference. However, my cue does not play any different than any cue might for any other player unless they shared the same preferences I do for the cue construction. A custom cue does not enable you to play better........it will encourage and sometimes even inspire some players to try harder.....to try their very best to validate why they own such a nice cue.......but that's about it. There are cheap production cues and expensive ones too........just like there are great custom cue-makers and also some ho-hum ones as well.

There isn't any production cue company I know of that would adhere to a customer's cue specifications or invest the time to build the cue "exactly" the way the customer wants it made. My custom cue-makers are willing and talented enough to build me pool cues the way I requested the cue to be made, not the way they make a cue for every Tom, Dick & Harry pool player type that comes along. A lot of customers don't know what they want and therefore just default to the cue-maker's normal standards. IMO.....that's a lot more reminiscent of production pool cues than custom cues.

Matt B.


p.s. 6 days and counting down to rotator cuff surgery #4..........ugh!

Great post. And the type of dialogue I was looking for.

I own productions. And customs. I have a Frey sneaky. And a Rick Howard plain jane. I've owned Thomas Waynes. Joseys. Countless others. The point of my thread is that production cues used to be kind of hit and miss, and you weren't guaranteed any consistency from cue to cue, the way you'd get a cue from a custom guy that was putting out a very repeatable product.

It seems that in the last couple of years, that consistency has arrived in production companies. There was no slag against custom makers. They make a great product. But then, the usual suspects want to jump on me, and argue how custom is better than production. It isn't. It's just different.