Have Yale heard the WPA nonsense and the US Open?

The WPA agreement is what a lot of people have been hoping for. Central governing body, unified rules, blah, blah, blah.

As I've said before, be careful what you wish for. The existing structure reflects the true state of the industry. You can try to force a new structure on the industry, but that isn't going to change the realities of pool's popularity. It's like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

IMHO the agreement only benefits the WPA. There is nothing in it for the players.

You said it. This is a very simple version of other sports sanctioning bodies.
Check out the ATP rules and you find the same requirements plus a whole lot more.
Mandatory meetings
Mandatory media availability
Anti-doping
Must be a member of the ATP to compete
Must get approval for non-sanctioned events
Some players must wear ATP or Tournament sponsor logos
Mandatory number of tournaments played for players in top 100 - unless injured
Fines for everything...If you fart too loud you could get fined lol
If you pull out of a tournament you still have to travel to the event to complete their promotional obligations or get fined.
No gambling
No guarantee you will make money or a living
ETC...

For those interested, you can google the 2016 ATP rulebook.

Heck, even NFL players are fined for missing mandatory media events.

JoeyM
 
The WPA agreement is what a lot of people have been hoping for. Central governing body, unified rules, blah, blah, blah.

As I've said before, be careful what you wish for. The existing structure reflects the true state of the industry. You can try to force a new structure on the industry, but that isn't going to change the realities of pool's popularity. It's like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

IMHO the agreement only benefits the WPA. There is nothing in it for the players.

Nobody should bark up a tree before it is grown enough to stand on it's own.

Besides who the hell is feeding the tree ??? :yeah:
 
They aren't forced to do public appearances whenever told. They will have to do them during an event however, and that works fine for snooker. It forces the players to be available for the fans/media.

Anti-doping rules is a given in any sport. If pool wants to get big, then welcome to the real world.

And the only reason Charlie cares is now international players can't play in his fake World 14.1




I agree, they're putting the squeeze on ole' CW .......
 
This wouldn't stand the first legal challenge. There's no "consideration" by the WPA given to the players. Also, the timing can/will be considered duress.

I'm waiting to get some players reactions.
 
I'm disgusted to just now learn that my European friends signed it. Apparently has more to do with countering the "Hardcore Contracts" (not my words) some Asian countries, particularly China, have been trying to force players to sign. This is a way to try to bring those organizers/promoters to the table. We'll see.
 
The biggest problem is all of the misunderstanding and misinformation out there surrounding this very simple contract.

Not to mention the fact that all this dissent is a perfect example of what happens when you require something professional from a group of people who have never known , or have never been required, to act like professionals. Of course they are shocked and appalled at the idea of being responsible.

Go get a job at a major corporation, or a sponsorship from a major corporation, and this little player contract looks like a children's book. Go be a professional athelete in another sport and this contract will make you laugh with joy at it's simplicity.

So a week before the Open the WPA dropped a mandatory Co tract on all players wishing to play in ANY WPA event. It's a joke. Has to get permission to play in non WPA events. Will be suspended if playing in any World Championship ( other than WPA ). They are forced to do public appearences when ever told to ( unpaid ). Code of customers duct which includes gambling. Anti doping rules along with random drug testing. Don't know how this is all gonna go down but it should
do be interesting. While this contract is nonsense I think it is gonna be the catalyst for something big, something brewing for a long time - player unity. I think it's really cruddy dropping this on everyone a week before the open, everyone's paid, most are here or in the air already on their way. It's blowing up on FB, Charlie Williams has copies of the actual Co tracts up.

-This contract was not "sprung" on anyone. It has just now been brought into the spotlight because u.s. open 9ball is the only major WPA sanctioned event in the u.s. and it's around the corner. Many players signed and paid long ago.

- players do NOT need permission to play in non WPA qualified events. So there is absolutely nothing limiting players from playing, except for one specific circumstance. Which is when an event meets all of the requirements for sanctioning, but the promoter chooses not to ask for sanctioning. This was put in place, so I am told by the WPA , as a measure to protect players from events like Charlie William's B.S. fest. And to at least deter the Charlie Williams of the world from trying to host fake world events.

- forced to do PR when reasonable. So what?

- code of conduct. So what?

- possible drug testing. So what?

Not only are they not paying they are severely limiting players chance to earn money elseware.

Not true.

Let's not forget the sponsorship thing. Any players wanting to wear something for their own sponsor must get approval 30 days prior to an event and can not be deemed offensive. Broad interpretation there but this next part will help it make sense. All players are required to wear stuff from the WPA's sponsors lol. This whole thing really stinks for the players but sure sounds do good for the WPA. TO me, it sounds do like WPA is trying to tie up all the players and be in complete Controll of the little bit of money the players make now.

Sponsors must be approved and you MIGHT be required to wear WPA sponsors patch etc.
Not a big deal because sponsors provide the funding. Duh.

This contract does not " tie up " any players and does not control their money.

What it does is force them to act like professionals and be held to 'very minimal' professional standard. AND it protects them from being forced into exclusive contracts by China, which China has already tried twice.

Will the WPA make a few bucks? Yeah a few. Which is what they need to perform any tasks at all.

It's funny, people will ***** and moan about the WPA and BCA not doing much, and rightfully so, and they ***** and moan about crappy promoters who didn't provide champagne in the green room, but the very second that one of these entities tries to make a little money - it's the next big scam.

If you want better promoters, events, governing bodies, and players then let them generate some frikin cash for cripes sake.

I'm not saying the contract is perfect. And neither is the WPA .
But you guys need to start looking for reasons to make it work, instead of looking for reasons it wont.
 
I truly hope ALL the players stick together and tell WPA where to stick this in no uncertain terms. As I mentioned earlier, something like this has needed to happen for A LONG TIME and that time may just be now. Without quibbling over the smaller details I think all can see how bad a deal this would be for the players. The dress code thing sure. Attending meetings sure. Don't see a thing wrong with those expectations.But can anyone tell me what the benefits to the players is gonna be with this agreement ? I sure don't see any.

The drug testing at face value doesn't sound bad nor too much to ask but there are inherent Robles with it. Just as an example, let's say there is a tournament in Colorado or Washington or anywhere else that it is legal ( and the list of legal places are growing all the time and we very well may likely see a doubling of states after this election in November. I've even scene tourneys advertising that they are a " smoke friendly " venue. So let's player XXX partakes in a legal manner in Colorado or wherever. Then two weeks later they haven't smoked even a gram but will fail test because of the length it stays in your system. Lose your livelyhood for doing exactly zero wrong ? And before someone jumps in and says " but but but even if legal in a state it's still illegal due to Federal Law " - well I have my own very strong opinions on states rights but let's please leave all political discussions out of this one and keep it about the players, thanks. Keep one thing in mind though, even those who have legitimate prescriptions for Marajuana to help ease the pain and other symptoms associated with cancer, aids, and a bunch of other terrible diseases are still technically breaking the law if you were to take the federal stance.

Now as to the code of conduct : specifically the gambling . As we all know many of our events are held in Casinos. They do not specify limiting to the gambling to pool , so it would include no slots, no poker, no blackjack, no anything! I'm certain the Casinos would JUST LOVE THAT - all those players not allowed to do anything in their casinos. The WPA is acting like gambling is illegal now a days and that is just the exact opposite of the truth. Even when it comes to gambling on pool. In the majority of jurisdictions , as long as it's a contest between two players and no third party betting ( the rail ) is taking place.

So in addition to all the other BS the WPA is attempting to do limiting the players abilities to make money , with the code of conduct thing is taking away most of their biggest revenue stream. Some of you will disagree with this but let me explain why that is so. Many will say no one can consistently make money gambling - and that IS ture for the most part. But what is not being taking into account is the way it generally works with these guys at their level. Rarely are they playing on theor own money. They have stakehorses " or rather " individual sponsors " lol. The agreements vary from day to day and player to player but basically the players are entitled to anywhere from 30%-50% of whatever they win on a given night - this is is after expenses of course but all of that is worked out between the player and the horse. Here is a quick example of how this keeps the players afloat. I WI
like use 50 % just for ease of math. it

(Monday) - player wins 2 sets @ $1000 each. After peen session players pockets about $800 bucks. (Tuesday ) player plays a set for $5000 and loses. ( Wednesday ) player wins 3 sets @ $500 each. pockets $600. I could go on but yall get the point So now half way thru the week the player is up $1400. Yes, player lost $5000 on Tuesday but you need to remember he is not putting up the CHEEZ so he lost nothing bUT on days when he wins he takes down his portion. Sure, there are players with arrangements with their normal everyday horse that keep " a rolling ledger " to keep track but usually they don't last that long for obvious reasons lol. Often times a player will wake up with $0 dollars, no game nor any stake horse lined up but a few hours later they are in action for $2000. No where near as many as there used to be but there are still lots of folks that want to get in on the action. They ,a not play so good so it's smarter for them to throw money behind a monster , some folks just want to be in with the " in crowd " and this is their only way in, could be a hundred different reasons. Bottom line is though, taking this all away from the players and without them get some type of $$$$$ in return is definitely gonna screw LOTS of players.

Now, back to the players unifying - it's quite obvious this is what NEEDS to be done. But who? Those that have tried have never really accomplished anything. All things considered, I do believe CJ WILEY would be exact the man for the job. He certainly has more than enough experience and knows the business inside out in all aspects. He's owned his own pool rooms, tours, a champion himself. I do believe he has the business sense that is desperately needed to effectively represent the players and that is exactly what is needed. Just by observation I think he has a great reputation and gets along well with all of the players. I know he has his own projects in the works so he may have zero interest in something like this, but he certainly gets my vote!

I feel compelled to add this - CJ, we love ya brother but none of that 2 fouls stuff PLEASE!!! ☺
 
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The biggest problem is all of the misunderstanding and misinformation out there surrounding this very simple contract.

Not to mention the fact that all this dissent is a perfect example of what happens when you require something professional from a group of people who have never known , or have never been required, to act like professionals. Of course they are shocked and appalled at the idea of being responsible.

Go get a job at a major corporation, or a sponsorship from a major corporation, and this little player contract looks like a children's book. Go be a professional athelete in another sport and this contract will make you laugh with joy at it's simplicity.



-This contract was not "sprung" on anyone. It has just now been brought into the spotlight because u.s. open 9ball is the only major WPA sanctioned event in the u.s. and it's around the corner. Many players signed and paid long ago.

- players do NOT need permission to play in non WPA qualified events. So there is absolutely nothing limiting players from playing, except for one specific circumstance. Which is when an event meets all of the requirements for sanctioning, but the promoter chooses not to ask for sanctioning. This was put in place, so I am told by the WPA , as a measure to protect players from events like Charlie William's B.S. fest. And to at least deter the Charlie Williams of the world from trying to host fake world events.

- forced to do PR when reasonable. So what?

- code of conduct. So what?

- possible drug testing. So what?



Not true.



Sponsors must be approved and you MIGHT be required to wear WPA sponsors patch etc.
Not a big deal because sponsors provide the funding. Duh.

This contract does not " tie up " any players and does not control their money.

What it does is force them to act like professionals and be held to 'very minimal' professional standard. AND it protects them from being forced into exclusive contracts by China, which China has already tried twice.

Will the WPA make a few bucks? Yeah a few. Which is what they need to perform any tasks at all.

It's funny, people will ***** and moan about the WPA and BCA not doing much, and rightfully so, and they ***** and moan about crappy promoters who didn't provide champagne in the green room, but the very second that one of these entities tries to make a little money - it's the next big scam.

If you want better promoters, events, governing bodies, and players then let them generate some frikin cash for cripes sake.

I'm not saying the contract is perfect. And neither is the WPA .
But you guys need to start looking for reasons to make it work, instead of looking for reasons it wont.

Post of the day
 
So a player signs the contract and the Seminoles or some other promoter comes along and wants to put on six (6) 30k tournaments a year unsanctioned. All players on contract with WPA can't go. Sounds great...NOT. I can't see this being a legal contract. Johnnyt
 
Mr. Bond, a quick response to your post. As I am definitely not a lawyer I do I fact have a great amount of experience dealing with all types of contracts in my professional life. First an employee ( was in mid to high level management at several banks ) - so confidentiality agreements, no compete clauses, purchase oder agreements etc. then later a business owner myself I had to deal with virtually all types on contracts. So I am in agreement with you that this is the simplest of contracts possible. The biggest thing, as far as I see, is there is no provisions for actual compensation to the players.

When you compare the WPA contract to other sports and " athletes " there is a huge difference. Those other sports are giving guidelines to the players for which in return they receive money. Included are their yearly salaries, by game slaries, performance bonuses etc etc. Absolutely nothing even close to that is provided in the WPA contract. Basically the players are only able to play " for the chance " to maybe be able to make some money.

As to the sponsorship and public appeared cessation : these two are some of the only opportunities players have to earn money outside of placing or winning tournaments. Here's a scenario for you - players a, b, and c all have separate individual sponsorship agreements with cue tech. They get whatever they each negotiated. So under this agreement the WPA could make a deal with Cue Tech and ALL PLAYERS would be required to wear that patch or whatever. Obvious
you CUE Tech no longer has any need to make those individual agreement with players, AND WPA is not required to pay the players ANYTHING for wearing said patches. This is just one example but think about what all this could be applied to!

Appearences, as I have always said I believe it is to the players best interest to get themselves out there as much help as possible ( paid or unpaid ) because they are building their own brand ( themselves ) that way, which in turn leads to sponsorship deals. Much like the patch example above, the players can he get screwed like this too.

One final thought. This is in regards to WPA sanctioned events. To me it seems the WPA desires a " cartel like " control over all things pro pool. So without any type of compenstion, by their own words " they are not able to garantee ANY of the payouts, EVEN WITH WPA Santi one events ". Seriously, where / what are the benefits to the players. I have no dog in this fight; I'm not a promoter nor a pro player. Just the same as everyone else here, I just love pool and would love to see it get better and would like to see the players treated fairly throughout the entire process.
 
The biggest problem is all of the misunderstanding and misinformation out there surrounding this very simple contract.

Not to mention the fact that all this dissent is a perfect example of what happens when you require something professional from a group of people who have never known , or have never been required, to act like professionals. Of course they are shocked and appalled at the idea of being responsible.

Go get a job at a major corporation, or a sponsorship from a major corporation, and this little player contract looks like a children's book. Go be a professional athelete in another sport and this contract will make you laugh with joy at it's simplicity.





I'm not saying the contract is perfect. And neither is the WPA .
But you guys need to start looking for reasons to make it work, instead of looking for reasons it wont.

That bold part up there... Lets talk about that. If I sign a contract to work for a major or even minor corporation I get paid. If I get a sponsorship I get paid. Those professional athletes in those other sports you talk about.. They get paid.

If pool players sign this contract and abide by the rules what do they get in return? A chance to compete against some of the best in the world on their own dime and if you don't make top 10 you lose money.

I'm all for a sort of governing body but, it should benefit the players as well as the business.
 
So a player signs the contract and the Seminoles or some other promoter comes along and wants to put on six (6) 30k tournaments a year unsanctioned. All players on contract with WPA can't go. Sounds great...NOT. I can't see this being a legal contract. Johnnyt

Johnny, from everything I've read/ scene it appears to me that the WPA collects quite a bit of money in " fees " and it is my honest belief their attempt at control
Ling things the way they are is motivated by money and that's fine. It's a good thing to make money but it can't be a one way street. I'm not exactly sure what there problem with CW and other promoters but I'm sure it has to do with the not wanting to pay the WPA the " sanctioning fees ". ( Honestly I am unsure of the exact number but someone above listed it as 7.5 % ) That doesn't sound like much at first, but it adds up fast, especially when taking the dollar amounts involved .
 
"Have Yale heard the WPA nonsense and the US Open? -"

No, but Harvard has and it is pissed!.

(Sorry, y'all)
 
That bold part up there... Lets talk about that. If I sign a contract to work for a major or even minor corporation I get paid. If I get a sponsorship I get paid. Those professional athletes in those other sports you talk about.. They get paid.

If pool players sign this contract and abide by the rules what do they get in return? A chance to compete against some of the best in the world on their own dime and if you don't make top 10 you lose money.

I'm all for a sort of governing body but, it should benefit the players as well as the business.

That's the only major issue with it imo.
 
So,

1) Is the US Open Promoter requiring this "contract" to be signed for someone to play the event, as it is a WPA sanctioned event?

2) There are a lot of players there that have sponsors and might want to advertise their logos even though these aren't just the handful of American pros that go to international WPA events.

3) What are the "conditions that meet WPA sanctioning criteria"? If an event say the Derby or Turning Stone meets the threshold of money added to qualify for WPA sanctioning, but couldn't care less about attaining that sanction, can the WPA say the players can't play? And no, I'm not going to go read through that garbage WPA site. They can't even keep their calendar updated.

4) What does the WPA do to guarantee prize funds for the events they are sanctioning?

I could go on and on.

And please no more of this ignorant reasoning that oh it is just in the contract for certain scenarios. If it is in the contract that selectivity can be applied at will and change depending on which side of the bed Sir Ian rolled out of that day.
 
So,

1) Is the US Open Promoter requiring this "contract" to be signed for someone to play the event, as it is a WPA sanctioned event?

2) There are a lot of players there that have sponsors and might want to advertise their logos even though these aren't just the handful of American pros that go to international WPA events.

3) What are the "conditions that meet WPA sanctioning criteria"? If an event say the Derby or Turning Stone meets the threshold of money added to qualify for WPA sanctioning, but couldn't care less about attaining that sanction, can the WPA say the players can't play? And no, I'm not going to go read through that garbage WPA site. They can't even keep their calendar updated.

4) What does the WPA do to guarantee prize funds for the events they are sanctioning?

I could go on and on.

And please no more of this ignorant reasoning that oh it is just in the contract for certain scenarios. If it is in the contract that selectivity can be applied at will and change depending on which side of the bed Sir Ian rolled out of that day.

As to your #3 and 4. Don't know what those specific conditions are, but that was one of my biggest problems with this contract. Yes it if is an event that WPA feels should be sanctioned and that event wants no part of the WPA, the WPA can tell the players they can not play in that event. As to number 4, The WPA specifically says outright they are not responsible for garanteeing ANY FUNDS!

PS - as to #2, each individual player must get official approval at least 30 days prior to event to be able to display a sponsors patch or whatever.
 
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lol you guys are looking at this all backwards.

Shhh...don't tell Ian....I don't think he realizes what he has done. lol

The benefit of joining the WPA is that now the players will have the power. And unfortunately most of the players are not realizing this.

Contracts can work for you as well as against you. Think about it. If a bunch of random players were to make demands of the wpa, the WPA doesn't have to care or do anything about it.
If the entire player membership of the WPA makes a demand, the WPA will have little choice but to meet the demand or lose their members. (Hint hint)
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. :)
 
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