Help Me Draw

[Bob Jewett]

... What you really want is a very loose grip, and a very fast forward swing of the cuestick, to a natural finish position ... develop your ability to draw the ball very consistently, ...

While a looser grip may help with the consistency, it is not required to get draw on the ball. Nor is follow-through. I think it is important to distinguish between what is required and what is helpful. What is required to put a lot of backspin on the cue ball is that the tip hit the cue ball well off-center to get a lot of spin in proportion to the speed, that the tip be chalked to prevent a miscue, and that the stick be moving quickly. Nothing else is required. People who say otherwise are confused.

Determining what is helpful is where the art of instruction enters. A good instructor will be able to diagnose the particular dead-end that the student has somehow managed to get lost in, and figure out a path to get out of that dead end. Often that path is through developing solid, smooth mechanics.

In the beginning/intermediate students I've seen, the dead-end cause for draw problems is most often bad chalking. This sounds too simple, of course. The OP is probably saying, "but I chalk OK." Well, no, you probably don't. And because you don't chalk well, your arm -- not your brain -- has learned that you cannot hit the cue ball well off-center. Your arm knows that it needs to bring the tip in to the center of the ball to avoid the miscue that will cause your buddies to laugh at you and make fun of you. And that interference from your arm causes you get inconsistent draw when your brain is fighting for control.

Of course, the previous paragraph is all speculation. The OP may have entirely different problems, like a 24-inch bridge that he copied from Bustamante, combined with a crooked shaft, to give a totally random hit on the cue ball. Or maybe it's something else.

 

[mnShooter]

What helps me most is to hit the ball fast not hard. No tense muscles helps a lot. I don't agree with the loose grip idea. Loose grip = loss of accuracy.

 

[VIProfessor]

Wow, that's pretty good. It'd still be hard to articulate in person, I think, to someone who's asking how to draw. But it really is just what you said.

Thanks suckershot,

I appreciate the kudos! At the end of the day, we're all pool freaks trying to play this game a little better, so we have to help one another.

I believe that's one of the things that has helped the European and Asian players advance so quickly. They form associations and instructional programs, and they help each other. In short, they work more collectively. Over here, there has been a historical tendency to be more more individualistic. If player A learns some helpful information, instead of sharing it with his brethren, he'll go and practice undercover somewhere so he can rob them in future matchups! While there's no doubt that the gambling and dog-eat-dog process has provided valuable seasoning for generations of American players, I believe that it is equally evident that we're going to have to band together if we want to take the game to the next level.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Getting physical for a moment, this acceleration would be the force needed to apply the proper angular rotation on the cue ball. In other words, "SPIN".

Flickit,
Most of your post made sense, but the above is incorrect, or poorly worded.

The CB knows nothing about accelleration, only speed of the cue, its mass, the point it was contacted and the vectoral compenent of that force. Those variables are what contributes to angular momentum, and perhaps more importantly, the ratio between angular momentum and speed of CB.

Colin

 

[av84fun]

Dodgecharger...First, I wouldn't use that set up to practice draw shots. Your left, bridge hand is too crowded into the cushion which would be a distraction from pure draw stroke.

Here are two variables I suggest you concentrate on.

1. You must ACCELERATE your stroke through the ball to a FULL followthrough. Practice short SOFT draw shots so you can readily FEEL the acceleration. Many players, instead of smooth acceleration use sort of a STAB or PUNCH stroke (actually a punch draw is a useful shot but that's another story). For the basic draw stroke if you stab or punch the stroke actually DEcellerates and you just won't get the juice. There is a certain "feel" you get when you strike the CB very low and with an accelerating stroke. It's like love...hard to explain but you will KNOWit when you feel it. Gradually speed up the stroke but always ACCELERATE so that the cue tip is moving MUCH faster at CB impact than it was when the stroke is initiated.

2. FORGET the often repeated MYTH about using a LEVEL stroke when drawing the ball.

A. It is often impossible to use a level stroke anyway due to CB position relative to the cushions.
B. Especially on extreme or "power draw" strokes if the shaft is super low and level, you are going to miscue and/or illegally jump the ball. ALWAYS use a SLIGHTLY downward shaft angle.

3. Striking the CB in the EXACT spot you intend to is critical not only for getting the juice but also to avoid missing shots due to throw and/or cue stick deflection (squirt). To test yourself use the 9 Ball as the CB and use "circle" formed at the top of the 9 (see it) as your target...that way you can tell if you missed high or low which is impossible if you just you the spot or circle on a CB.

4. Finally, just buy a couple of video matches involving just about any Filipino or Cory Duel who, IMHO, has one of the most powerful draw strokes on the planet. Do what they do!

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Jim

 

[suckershot]

...Cory Duel who, IMHO, has one of the most powerful draw strokes on the planet.

Ain't that the truth. I still can't believe I saw Cory overdraw the ball by about 2-3 ft. on what was about a 7-7.5 ft. nearly cross table shot. Not to mention overdrawing left him a very tough cut on a ball that was right in the middle of the short rail, just off the rail, which he also made and subsequently ran out.

 

[Cory in DC]

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AasG1PYxB4UasG4Ubru1kYxB4kasF4kasF3kboY1kNll@

now when i try it 3 out of 5 times this happens....it makes it to the rail but it doesnt come straight back and from my POV it looks like im hitting it with nothin but bottom i dotn put any english on it at all

whats wrong now ? lol

To get that sort of action, you're probably making the shot rail first without realizing it, and not hitting it as low as you intend.

One more tip that I haven't seen anyone offer is to make sure you're hitting the CB as low on your shooting stroke as you are on you're practice strokes. If your body lifts or you jump up during your shot, then you'll probably hit the CB higher than you think. So stay down and finish the shot. Also, if you drop your elbow too early, before contact, the same thing will happen -- your bridge hand is a fulcrum, so when your back arm drops the front of your cue goes up.

So, (1) hit it low, (2) with a loose grip, (3) firmly, (4) follow through, (5) stay down on the shot -- only stand up when you have to to get out of the way of the CB, and (6) make sure your back elbow doesn't drop until after contact.

Lastly, if you're not jumping the CB off the table once in a while as you try to learn, then you're probably not aiming low enough. You can only learn how low is too low by aiming too low a few times.

Cory

 

[pooltchr]

draw can be achieved without any 1 or more of those elements (low, hard, followthrough...) mentioned above. .

Can you please explain how to achieve draw without hitting the cue ball below center, and without some follow-through? By follow-through, I am talking about the tip traveling forward beyond the point where initial contact is made with the cue ball. Without those two things happening, I don't know how you can create the backward spin on the cue ball necessary to produce draw.
Steve

 

[av84fun]

pooltchr...<<Can you please explain how to achieve draw without hitting the cue ball below center...I don't know how you can create the backward spin on the cue ball necessary to produce draw.>>

You are correct but just a cautionary note because there is a prop bet people lose all the time.

You have to be careful about how you define where the "center" of the ball is. In order to avoid losing to a good masse' stroker you have to define "center" as the traditional center.

In other words, when the cue stick is being stroked level to the bed of the table, the "center" of the CB is were most people would say it is...i.e. 50% of the distance from where the CB touches the table to the highest point of the CB.

But if the cue stick is super jacked up as in a masse' stroke, the "center" MOVES UP and is now much higher than as described above. For the purpose of imparting spin, "center" must be defined as the middle of the surface of the CB that is perpendicular to the trajectory of the cue stick as it approaches the CB.

Clearly, severe backspin can be imparted using such a jacked up trajectory and by striking the CB well above the "traditional center" of the ball.

I'm probably over-explaining here...certainly to you...but if the cue stick is oriented to point STRAIGHT DOWN on top of the CB, then the "center" of the CB is at the exact TOP of it. Then, if the tip strikes the ball even a half tip down from top dead center then draw (or follow depending on which side of the CB you are viewing from) will be imparted.

Regards,
Jim

 

[FLICKit]

Flickit,
Most of your post made sense, but the above is incorrect, or poorly worded.

The CB knows nothing about accelleration, only speed of the cue, its mass, the point it was contacted and the vectoral compenent of that force. Those variables are what contributes to angular momentum, and perhaps more importantly, the ratio between angular momentum and speed of CB.

Colin

Colin, kinda funny how you said that the cue ball knows nothing about acceleration, then in the next post by AV4fun he stresses the same concept regarding the value of acceleration.

First of all, there has to be some clarification regarding acceleration. There's the acceleration of the cue ball from 0 to its eventual maximum speed (instantaneously after contact is made).

Second, with regards to draw, there is acceleration of the lower part of the cue ball in reference to the top part of the cue ball, which gives the net effect of spin (reverse spin in this case). The whole cue ball is moving forward, yet the bottom part of the cue ball is moving forward faster than the top part of the cue ball.

Third form of acceleration can be from the motion of the stick as it moves towards and through the cue ball. If the cue stick deccelerates throughout the instantaneous contact even with the lower part of cue ball, then it will be unlikely, if not impossible, that the cue ball will have reverse spin. So, acceleration of the stick can be very useful for imparting reverse spin. It helps the stick to not only establish velocity of the cue ball moving forward, but the microscopicly prolonged accelerated contact with the lower part of the cue ball helps generate spin.

BTW thanks for your comment regarding most of it making sense. Actually the rest of it makes sense too when you understand what was being conveyed. Hopefully this post and the one from AV4fun helps clarify that for you. Let us know if more clarification would be helpful.

 

[FLICKit]

Can you please explain how to achieve draw without hitting the cue ball below center, and without some follow-through? By follow-through, I am talking about the tip traveling forward beyond the point where initial contact is made with the cue ball. Without those two things happening, I don't know how you can create the backward spin on the cue ball necessary to produce draw.
Steve

To answer your questions, let's start with: without hitting low on the cue ball.
AV4fun provided one explanation, regarding hitting below the point of center in reference to the stick. The stick can be 100% on top of the ball (aiming downward), and yet draw can be initiated. This is a technique that you see all of the trick shot artists utilizing. The true reference point on the cue ball is that minute dot at core center. In other words, you'd have to shave a cue ball into 2 even halves, in order to see core center. As long as the stick is above that point at contact then you will likely generate top spin, and if the stick is below that point then you will likely generate back spin. From the perspective of the stick, hit below core center then for backspin and above core center for top spin (left and right or any combo can be applied as well).

The only reason that I say "likely" is that there is an exception. It is possible for the shooter to actually move the tip of the stick (i.e. up, down or other) at the point of instantaneous contact. To elaborate, it is possible to use a level stroke to hit the cue ball 1 1/2 tips high at start of contact with the cue ball, but finish the contact with 1/2 tip high. Due to the friction between ball and tip, surprisingly this could produce a reverse spin, even though the stick was always above center.
What's the significance of this? Well, many newly learning draw strokers will aim to a very low point on the cue ball. But, negative experience or reasoning gives an automatic impulse to bail out of such a low position and rise back up to the comfort zone (near middle) during and after the stroke. This negates some or all of the effects of hitting low on the cue ball.


Now for the without follow through scenario
There is a nip shot where you can actually just barely contact the surface of the cue ball in the desired position (i.e. low in this case) and generate a surprising amount of draw. When would you need a shot like that? Well you could have an object ball near a pocket, and the cue ball be about 1/2 an inch to a millimeter away, and the next object ball be way back on the other end of the table. A followthrough stroke would be useless (obviously resulting in a double hit foul) due to the unbelievably close proximity. With this nip draw, you can surprisingly send the cue ball running back towards the other end of the table.

 

[pooltchr]

That was the point I was trying to make. "Center ball" is the core of the cue ball. There is no center ball on the surface. So below center must be reletive to the angle of the cue stick as it strikes the cue ball.
As for follow through, there must be some movement of the cue stick beyond the original point of contact. It doesn't necessarily need to be a lot, but there must be some...other wise, the tip would simply touch the cue ball without moving it.
So you must hit below center with some penetration of the space the cue ball is occupying in order to impart back-spin.
Steve

 

[whitewolf]

Scott Lee taught me the low and level draw stoke and I have practiced his progressive drill for many many hours, with great success.

You must stroke smoothly and follow through, just as Scott teaches. If you watch Cory, he is very very smooth, and I believe that he shoots with the low and level. This takes great control however.

I have had other instructors tell me that the low and level is too risky, in that you may miscue too much. And they advocate more of a 'chop down' draw stroke.

So I practice both because how you draw depends on the situation.

My conclusion is: with the low and level, you have much more accuracy and greater distance control, without a doubt.

Here is my secret to drawing. VISUALIZE before you shoot the cueball coming back toward you how much initial spin it would take to get from point A (the object ball) back to point B. Once you learn to visualize the spin, you can work on developing the 'feel' and technique. But you must see the SPIN in advance my friend. Once you do this, drawing is easy.

 

[randyg]

LLL

LOW-LEVEL-LOOSE.

Best consistency

 

[FLICKit]

Can you please explain how to achieve draw without hitting the cue ball below center, and without some follow-through? By follow-through, I am talking about the tip traveling forward beyond the point where initial contact is made with the cue ball. Without those two things happening, I don't know how you can create the backward spin on the cue ball necessary to produce draw.
Steve

Yeah, Pooltchr you're basically on the right track now. The original statement of mine that you questioned was

draw can be achieved without any 1 or more of those elements (low, hard, followthrough...) mentioned above. .

But when you asked your question, you phrased it in slightly different wording than what I had stated.

Can you please explain how to achieve draw without hitting the cue ball below center, and without some follow-through? By follow-through, I am talking about the tip traveling forward beyond the point where initial contact is made with the cue ball. Without those two things happening, I don't know how you can create the backward spin on the cue ball necessary to produce draw.
Steve

In addition, you interjected a new definition that is inconsistent with what was being expressed in the thread. Other than your statement, followthrough is never regarded as a slight distance past contact. The typical definition of follow through is regarded as a long fluid motion of the tip of the stick through contact point and beyond (usually a distance of at least 4 inches past the other end of the cue ball and often times much more).

A jab or punch stroke is not regarded as a follow through stroke. Looking through the thread, you will see that people posted comments to follow through instead of using a jab or punch stroke. They suggested to stop the punch or jab stroke and instead use follow through. With your new definition, the punch or jab stroke would also be a follow through since in your words the "tip [is] traveling forward beyond the point where initial contact is made with the cue ball".

The original statement of "draw can be achieved without any 1 or more of those elements (low, hard, followthrough...) mentioned above" was backed up and clarified not only by me, but by AV4Fun as well.

Hitting without low: The concept being expressed in this thread before my original post, if you had to spell out the definition, would be like splitting the cue ball in half exactly parallel to the table resulting in a top half and and a bottom half, whereby the bottom half would be low. There could be some slight nuances to that, not worth splitting hairs on.
Whereas you [pooltchr] and I and AV4fun are now talking in terms of getting draw spin by hitting the cue ball below planar center in reference to the direction of the stick... Thus draw can be achieved by hitting on the top half of the cue ball, as long as you still hit below planar center. So when you say "below center" that vaguely implies bottom half, whereas it could also be asserted that you're really saying below planar center.
In addition to that, I also gave an example where the cue tip starts with high contact on the cue ball and moves downward during contact until it reaches near center. This is an example where you can hit all high (but downward motion) on the cue ball and achieve draw. Thus draw can be achieved with no low at all.

Followthrough: The generally accepted concept as I expressed above is as a long fluid motion of the tip of the stick through contact point and beyond (usually a distance of at least 4 inches past the other end of the cue ball and often times much more). Thus getting draw spin without followthrough can be achieved with a nip stroke similar to a jab or punch.

Hard: The nip shot above could often be considered not hard... Won't elaborate any more than that unless necessary...

Thus the original statement that was made is backed up by me, AV4fun, and theoretically even you pooltchr as long there are no extraneous definitions interjected. I understand that conceptually you and I are expressing the same thing.

As was stated earlier, there are a number of ways to create draw spin on a cue ball, utilizing different types of stroke methods, some of which may even be quite opposite to each other. That's why the emphasis should be on spin and when learning it's very helpful to use a method whereby you can clearly see the spin achieved or not achieved on the cue'd ball. That's the main point asserted. No need to split hairs on any petty issues, since that would further detract from the original intent of helping RandyG to achieve draw spin.

 

[FLICKit]

That brings up one more point for helping RandyG with draw spin: With a typical stroke, after hitting the cue'd ball and often even after contact is made with the object ball, notice where the tip of your cue stick is. If the tip of your cue stick is even 2 inches above the table, then that's typically bad. Instead the tip should be at or near the felt on the table. I'd even recommend contacting the felt, as it is not as easy to puncture the felt as some people automatically assume. But of course, I'm assuming no liability for any damage caused by any fluke incidents. This would be especially true while in the learning phase where knowingly or unknowingly one might do a hard, elongated stroke, with a very firm grip and jerky stroke. But nonetheless, you have to learn how to keep your cue stick low, even a second or two after contact.

 

[pooltchr]

No need to split hairs on any petty issues, since that would further detract from the original intent of helping RandyG to achieve draw spin.

I just spent several days teaching classes with RandyG and Scott Lee...and I can assure you neither of them needs any help with their draw shots. I teach the same thing both of them teach...that is to get consistant controlled draw, you keep the cue as level as possible, and allow the tip of the cue to strike the cue ball below center and continue on past that point until your stroke comes to a natural finish. The distance is going to be different for different shots and different players...but you must hit below center, and finish your stroke. Follow-through is just a result of completing your stroke. I wasn't trying to split hairs...just didn't want your original comment to be mis-interperted.
Steve

 

[FLICKit]

correction accepted... It was DodgeCharger not RandyG....

 

[FLICKit]

Hopefully the elaborated statements that I made previously will aid to prevent any misinterpretations...

 

[Jal]

...First of all, there has to be some clarification regarding acceleration. There's the acceleration of the cue ball from 0 to its eventual maximum speed (instantaneously after contact is made).

Flickit, you probably didn't mean this literally, but the cueball does not reach its final speed instantaneously. It takes typically 1-2 milliseconds. That may not seem like long, but it's an eternity compared to some things. At large tip offsets, the majority of its spin and speed is acquired during the first half of this period (the force vs time curve becomes highly unsymmetric), but it still does not happen in an instant.

Second, with regards to draw, there is acceleration of the lower part of the cue ball in reference to the top part of the cue ball, which gives the net effect of spin (reverse spin in this case). The whole cue ball is moving forward, yet the bottom part of the cue ball is moving forward faster than the top part of the cue ball.

Very true.

Third form of acceleration can be from the motion of the stick as it moves towards and through the cue ball. If the cue stick deccelerates throughout the instantaneous contact even with the lower part of cue ball, then it will be unlikely, if not impossible, that the cue ball will have reverse spin. So, acceleration of the stick can be very useful for imparting reverse spin. It helps the stick to not only establish velocity of the cue ball moving forward, but the microscopicly prolonged accelerated contact with the lower part of the cue ball helps generate spin.

Sorry, but the stick does decelerate during contact. You can of course continue to apply force during this period, but the force between the cueball and tip will be much greater, and this causes the stick to slow down. And the extra force you're applying, by itself, does not give you much more in the way of speed and spin, because of this disparity. It's the acceleration of the stick up to the moment of impact that yields a more significant gain, and this is from the increased cue speed which results. It's particularly significant compared to what happens if you decelerate the stick before impact.

The cueball accelerates and acquires spin despite the stick's deceleration because the force that's acting on the stick to slow it down is the very same force that's acting on the cueball to speed it up. That is, it's the same in magnitude but operating in the opposite direction. Because of the cueball's smaller mass, the effect on it is larger than on the stick.

Hope that makes sense.

Jim