Help with Pool Experiment

I just watched the whole thing.

IMO, when you watch someone, you can know their "minimum" speed, but not their maximum. The minimum is obtained by the amount of knowledge the player shows. There is a threshold of knowledge that only comes from experience.

It looks like he's playing on an 8' table, and just messing around.

This guy is no way a D. He is never once uncomfortable at the table. His decision making is quick. He knows about where the cue ball is going. He never once has a difficult time making a bridge, from any of the positions the CB lands on the table. His stroke is decent, and his mechanics are decent. He knows to kick 2 rails. His banks are decent. A "D" player would have trouble with every single one of these issues several times in the half hour that we watched. 100% not a D.

If this is this guys regular competitive play, I'd make him a low C player. But there is the element that he's just messing around also, so he might be a solid mid C in competiton.

I also think, this guy has been playing many years. He is probably a regular at the room. I couldn't tell if he was the cue repair man or a customer from the side conversation when the other guy came up with a bunch of cues and was talking tips. But all these signs (plus his age) lead me to believe he's been playing at least 10 years.

If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets.

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.
 
He isn't trying very hard so it is difficult to tell.

From what I saw I would put him at high D to low C
but I only watched the break and first three balls.

This is based on his mechanics, decisions and
resulting cue ball position.
 
I would say a low end B. As many have said he has a good stroke quick to the next shot and know's english but doesn't execute. But is he not executing because he is dumping? It looks to me that if he took his time he would make more than half the shots he missed and cutting some of the balls he chose to bank.

If you took the grading A-B-C: A being APA 7-6, B 5-4, C 3-2, there's no way he is a C.

I am from the south side of Chicago and am a solid APA 5 with a few years going up to a 6 then back down to a 5. I have been playing for 24 years and only play in the spring session so once a year.
 
well here is my opinion after watching 3 racks.

several slop shots

a couple of good shots

too many scratches

too many missed easy shots

looked like me on a bad day:D

just based on what i saw he might be an apa 4 unless he was sandbaggin there. :wink:
 
I agree with most here, D or C player. Hits too hard, blew position a lot, I knew he was going to scratch on a couple shots but played shot the same anyway, maybe he was doing it on purpose, Im not sure. I have only been playing a couple years so maybe he was doing this on purpose?
 
Iirc, he fiddles around too much when down on the shot. He's probably been playing a long time, so he knows all of the shots, but way too inconsistent. A 5/C can run a rack here and there, but can just as quickly get themselves into trouble and end up knocking them around for the rack.
 
Mardayo said:
I would say a low end B. As many have said he has a good stroke quick to the next shot and know's english but doesn't execute. But is he not executing because he is dumping? It looks to me that if he took his time he would make more than half the shots he missed and cutting some of the balls he chose to bank.

If you took the grading A-B-C: A being APA 7-6, B 5-4, C 3-2, there's no way he is a C.

I am from the south side of Chicago and am a solid APA 5 with a few years going up to a 6 then back down to a 5. I have been playing for 24 years and only play in the spring session so once a year.
Click to expand...

Mardayo, you must play in the Illiana APA.


My very first thought was the same as many have already posted... I'd like to see him play when he's not stalling.

If this video was representative of his actual speed I'd call him a low C at best. I'd also agree he seems like a guy who's been around enough to have gained some knowledge, but failed to learn how to apply said knowledge. However, I admittedly had to stop watching when he intentionally dogged the four in the corner with ball in hand just before the twelve minute mark. If I can bring myself to, I'll try to finish and add any other thoughts.

I like the idea of the experiment, but you need to film people playing their actual speed in order to get a fair comparison. There are too many things about this guy that scream he's playing down for your purpose.
 
Well obviously if he is a D player he is older and has been around the game a bit so he might know a bit more than your average noob banger who just picked up a stick. I would guess low C unless he is stalling no way he is close to a B player like some have said.

In answer to the question about regionality and A,B,C rating. I played on C and B tournament tours in upper NE and then played in NY. I would say in NY the rating system is plus 1 level for an ABCD handicap. So if you are D in NY that's more like a mid to stronger C player in MA
 
in an earlier post i said he might be an apa 4.

i went back and watched the entire thing just now. some of it was painful to watch lol. i think he is a lil better player than what he showed there simply because its obvious that sometimes he made some shots just to see what happened.

since it was just practice it seemed he was trying to make banks where a cut shot was a better option.

as far as the comment some one else made about he shot too hard i agree....but i have seen pros do the same in practice and then shoot softer in a match and i believe this guy would do the same.

he is definitely not a d player, i really don't think he is a b player so i guess he falls into a c player.
 
And the truth is....?

This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice
with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue
( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:
 
Last edited:
David Marcus said:
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:
Click to expand...

In other words, you're saying he was just screwing around. If that's how he plays, that's how I rate him. If you want real answers, next time post real practice. I wasted 12 minutes at work that I could've spend online, in the break room or even in the bathroom.
 
David Marcus said:
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:
Click to expand...

If this video shows his true speed then I think "C" is about right...Its hard to judge someones game just watching them bang some balls around for 20-30 min. You really need to see them play some matches to judge speed in my opinion...If he came to my tourney and I had to rate him based on that video I would plug him in as a "B" player and adjust from there over the course of a couple tournaments just because it's too easy to sandbag to get a low rating....
 
David Marcus said:
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:
Click to expand...

without going back and looking for sure what you are mentioning here is what i noticed.

the 1 ball bank back up to the top left corner ? yea i noticed that. the bank on the 2? i honestly thought it was a simple cross side bank attempt. the 2-6 combo attempt was a good try but in my opinion a higher level than a c would have never got that out of shape.

there were several good shots but there were also a lot of bad ones.

yea he seemed to know some shots but the number of easy shots missed and the several rattled pockets and the numerous scratches make it hard to believe he is above a c level on a consistent basis. maybe low b on a good day.

it did seem obvious that he was not really bearing down on some shots so its kinda hard to make a rock solid assesment based on some good shots but some easy misses also.
 
Banks said:
In other words, you're saying he was just screwing around. If that's how he plays, that's how I rate him. If you want real answers, next time post real practice. I wasted 12 minutes at work that I could've spend online, in the break room or even in the bathroom.
Click to expand...

dang banks .... tell us how you really feel.:wink:

i did notice soom good shots that indicated he was screwing around some but i also noticed some easy misses so i stll say he is probably a consistent c player who is capable of being a low b on his good days.
 
lorider said:
dang banks .... tell us how you really feel.:wink:

i did notice soom good shots that indicated he was screwing around some but i also noticed some easy misses so i stll say he is probably a consistent c player who is capable of being a low b on his good days.
Click to expand...

I had hunch this was the case and feel the same way you do. A real A$$hole thread. Johnnyt
 
David Marcus said:
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:
Click to expand...

All your "experiment" proved was you could waste 12 minutes of a few people's time. You're saying it was all a put on but people were supposed to see through that because of three or four shots? You just embarrassed yourself dude with that crap.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I just watched the whole thing.

IMO, when you watch someone, you can know their "minimum" speed, but not their maximum. The minimum is obtained by the amount of knowledge the player shows. There is a threshold of knowledge that only comes from experience.

It looks like he's playing on an 8' table, and just messing around.

This guy is no way a D. He is never once uncomfortable at the table. His decision making is quick. He knows about where the cue ball is going. He never once has a difficult time making a bridge, from any of the positions the CB lands on the table. His stroke is decent, and his mechanics are decent. He knows to kick 2 rails. His banks are decent. A "D" player would have trouble with every single one of these issues several times in the half hour that we watched. 100% not a D.

If this is this guys regular competitive play, I'd make him a low C player. But there is the element that he's just messing around also, so he might be a solid mid C in competiton.

I also think, this guy has been playing many years. He is probably a regular at the room. I couldn't tell if he was the cue repair man or a customer from the side conversation when the other guy came up with a bunch of cues and was talking tips. But all these signs (plus his age) lead me to believe he's been playing at least 10 years.

If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets.

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. D player would have trouble with many of the things that you discuss. I would rank him a C.
 
To answer the OP follow up post, "did we see those shots that you mention at certain times?" YES, we did. but we also saw a ton of misses on very easy shots. One ball he misses twice in a row that was a hanger. On the third attempt when he finally makes it, he almost scratches in the corner. So what was your purpose of this "experiment"? Other than to waste or time.
 
And the Winner is iusedtoberich!

iusedtoberich said:
I just watched the whole thing.

IMO, when you watch someone, you can know their "minimum" speed, but not their maximum. The minimum is obtained by the amount of knowledge the player shows. There is a threshold of knowledge that only comes from experience.

It looks like he's playing on an 8' table, and just messing around.

This guy is no way a D. He is never once uncomfortable at the table. His decision making is quick. He knows about where the cue ball is going. He never once has a difficult time making a bridge, from any of the positions the CB lands on the table. His stroke is decent, and his mechanics are decent. He knows to kick 2 rails. His banks are decent. A "D" player would have trouble with every single one of these issues several times in the half hour that we watched. 100% not a D.

If this is this guys regular competitive play, I'd make him a low C player. But there is the element that he's just messing around also, so he might be a solid mid C in competiton.

I also think, this guy has been playing many years. He is probably a regular at the room. I couldn't tell if he was the cue repair man or a customer from the side conversation when the other guy came up with a bunch of cues and was talking tips. But all these signs (plus his age) lead me to believe he's been playing at least 10 years.

If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets.

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.
Click to expand...



This would be as close to the Truth except for two things......

9' Table and....


"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?
 
Last edited:
David Marcus said:
This would be as close to the Truth except for one thing.....


"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?
Click to expand...

Nature vs Nurture debate. I'm obviously strongly on the side of Nature:) There are 100's of other threads here with dozens of pages debating this issue...

So now that we went through this thread, what is the player's speed, when he is playing in serious competition?

A B C D should not change from location to location. A means a "real player", he will bet on himself to beat the 9 ball ghost on a 9' table at the drop of the hat, and get the money more times than not.

Your original question was two fold:

1. Does player rating change from location to location.

2. What is the players rating in the video.

I don't think you have answered either one for us in this thread.

My answer to #1 is no, it does not change. An A in california is an A in NY, is an A in Canada. A B C D are "gambling" ratings. If someone has been around for a long time, and travelled around regionally and even nationally, they will have a better comparison in their head.

If someone has never left their home room, they might think the best player there is an A, but he's really a C, and neither one of them know any better. That does not mean the ratings change from place to place, it simply means those two people don't know what they are talking about, cause they don't have the experience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top