heres a thought

[av84fun]

American male pool players have a bizarre sense of entitlement. "Money me."
But most dress like slobs, mumble, cannot put together three coherent sentences, and would never cooperate in mutual self interest. They look and sound unprofessional. And it is beneath them to learn anything from mere women pool players who are obviously inferior creatures.

European pros speak good English even when it is not there mother tongue and can make cogent comments when they are interviewed or in the commentary box.

IMO

Can't let ya go with that. Have you ever talked to a baseball player? Are you aware of any pool players who ran dog fight operations or raped women in their hotel rooms?

Who cares if they can make eloquent conversation or whether they wear rags?

All I care about is watching 3 rail kicks for the cheese!

This is Ames mister!

(-:

Jim

 

[Bigtruck]

It ...Happens!

I can see having to move to a different neighborhood out of necessity. I can see having to have a personal guard to protect you from people who know you have money. I can see having to have a licensed and bonded driver to drive you around to protect you from lawsuits should you get into an accident.

Beyond that, I can't really see money changing me that much. Right here and now I can say 100%, that I would never have a car that costs above $60,000.00. The "status" of being rich does not attract me. It is simply the ability to pursue my interests, and give to others that would attract me.

I've seen some of those shows that film how big lottery winners are doing a few years later. One guy was showing off some art pieces that cost an average of $30,000-$50,000 apiece, and to be quite honest, it was all gaudy, and did not compliment his home decor at all. I am sure his neighbors that had had money for years saw him as unrefined and nouveau riche.
I can tell you EXACTLY what I would do with $50,000,000. I would find a very safe investment that brought me 5% or better, and I would put $45,000,000 into it. The other $5,000,000 would be used to relocate and take care of the other necessities I detailed above.

Part of the interest off the $45,000,000 would be used as I said before, to fund a pro tour, and as far as the rest of the interest money, I would probably find people in my day to day life I believed deserved a break, and I would make that happen for them.
That's just who I am. I am not into acquisition as a means to an end. And I am not making judgements really against those who see the need to give to pool only as a "sound investment". It's just that I feel a little disappointment that there aren't any people out there with money who are of the same mindset as I am.

Russ

Russ - This is what happens when people end up with money that they didn't earn. Fatboy earned his and that why he's the way he is.

Ray

 

[Bigtruck]

Disagree

I'm pretty sure you missed the point and the fundamental understanding of my post as it pertains to the regional tours.

On the other hand, you nailed it. The regional tours that operate in the same regions do compete with each other head-2-head. This inturn is good for the players and possibly the room owners if it drives the cost down or prize funds up.

But, unfortunately the effect is quite the opposite. Now the limited players we (the regional tours) have is split so the prize funds are lower for the players along with participation lower in the events which effects the tour operators pocket and the room owners pocket.

The tour operators make less money from the players due to less participation.

The tours charge the players more because we have to cover expenses.

The tours charge the room owners more for the same reason as the players.

The players pay more and then win less prize money because of lower turnouts in events.

The rooms make less money on events because the turnout is lower.

This type of competition overall do to the intricate nature of the amount of pool players in a particular region has been a detriment to all instead of a good open market oppertunity.

However, if you noticed, we (The Viking Tour) has doubled our added monies into events, given the room owners more sponsorship products added numerous programs for the players and I made less money as a business owner. But hey, our participation is about double than our competitors + our sponsorship is about 10X more for the room owners so we had a little leeway.

In the end, It's not worth it to me to operate the tour if these conditions persist and get worse or to the room owners to hold the events.


Re: the suffecient prize money. This whole thing boils down to that + if the industry sponsorship is chopped up 50 different ways with all the different regional tours it's not going to get any better.

It simply takes a little working together on scheduling for the areas your in. I would like a $50+ event to go every week,I won't make them all but I will make more! Some promoters think that they don't have to research the area events , just go in when THEY want to. THIS reduces attendance and payouts, not more tours. More events IS good for pool. Bad for promoters that don't work together.

Ray

 

[Russ Chewning]

Russ - This is what happens when people end up with money that they didn't earn. Ray

I disagree. I earn some money myself, and still look for good, hardworking single mothers to help out during the holidays. Making more money would only allow me to give more.

I think it all really depends on the type of person one is to begin with. An example has already been given. Warren Buffet believes he should end his life with little more than he brought in, comparatively. I am sure he is providing for his wife, and a MODEST amount to his children, but otherwise, he is giving it to charity.

To me, that is about as honorable as it gets. Personally, I would not wait until I died to give it away, as the best part of having that much money to me, would be affecting people's lives positively with it.

Russ

 

[MikeJanis]

It simply takes a little working together on scheduling for the areas your in. I would like a $50+ event to go every week,I won't make them all but I will make more! Some promoters think that they don't have to research the area events , just go in when THEY want to. THIS reduces attendance and payouts, not more tours. More events IS good for pool. Bad for promoters that don't work together.

Ray

It's a simple business survical issue. lets say there are 4 tours operating in my region. Now as a business owner, am I supposed to work only 1 weekend a month and let my competitors work the other 3 ?

You are kidding, right?

 

[MikeJanis]

Mike, with great respect for what you are doing and with a full understanding of the challenges of entrepreneurship...no, I didn't misunderstand the essence of your posts which you stated quite clearly as copied below:

"Mike, its not necessarily a regional tour cooperation problem with the schedule. Its that people are trying to start tours left and right and compete with the existing tour in their regions. That's the problem.

For years I have worked very closely with the Joss, Tiger and SE tours so we did not have these problems. Then all of a sudden, other tours started to spring up left and right and it created a problem. In fact, it not only created the problem it has been a BIG detriment to our sport and the room owners that have regional tour events in their rooms along with creating frustration and confusion among the players."

__________________

Clearly, you suggest that competition from the regional tours that are starting up "left and right" is damaging to the industry.

I understand your point...I just don't agree with it. Unrestricted competition in a free enterprise system ALWAYS presents problems to many competitors (ask AOL...or Pam Am or American Motors or Kodak for that matter).

But just as certainly, that competition ALWAYS results in a favorable outcome to the citizens of the free market economy.

The most elegant aspect of nature is survival of the fittest but it is also the most cruel.

The free enterprise system is just slightly less elegant and just slightly less cruel.

You will succeed and I genuinely hope you do...only if you provide the economic incentive sufficient to convince a player to abandon an event 50 miles from his home to attend yours, 1500 miles from his home.

Until you can do that, then the free market system will provide you with serious competition until such time as you can.

And it seems to me that you are doing all that you can to create just such economic incentives...more than any other single person that I am aware of... and have associated yourself with some very formidible "partners."

I wish you well as the marketplace unfolds.

Regards,
Jim

Jim, that's a well thought out post and thanks for the props. However, back to you missing the point.

Mike H. originally wrote "We can't even get regional tours to work together right now to make sure that they don't schedule on top of each other."

I then wrote to Mike H stating: "You stating the above is like me saying I can not believe insidepoolmag.com and azbilliards.com can't find a way to work together so we only have to go to one web site to get all our news and info.....
Which is the same as me tellng him he should share his advertising dollars and potential personal income with his competitor.

Then you jumped in and we started conversing.

The origional point was to Mike H. about the many regional tours and how some of them are not beneficial to the sport. For instance('s), there is a tour that only operates in 1 pool room but its allowed to be considered a tour and the mags/web mags have given them credibility by simply saying their name as a tour or posting a link to their website under tours. And then there are substandard tours that serve no purpose other than to the director and then there is the mislabeling of events as tours which are actually series and not tours at all. All of these factors affect the player and sponsorship dollar pool which is in a contrasting state at the moment not to mention the confusion to the players.

From an insiders point of view this is quite serious and there has been some bickering about it. You wouldn't konow that but there are many issues that are not discussed here that have a direct impact on the sport.

Now for Mike H. that knows these things to come here and say what he did was a bit out of line for someone with this inside knowledge. In my opinion anyway.

And that's what I was talking about when I stated that : "I'm pretty sure you missed the point and the fundamental understanding of my post as it pertains to the regional tours."

Thanks for the free market economic lesson anyway. If that was a pool game you could probably give the the blue through. But believe me when it comes to tours and their economic fundamentals I could spot you the win if you just hit a rail.

Nothing personal but I live the tour life 24/7 and I love it.

Now, as a result of these conversations we got all the ya'hoos out there that think they actually have a clue and want someone who is in business to make the sport grow and make a living from the growth they helped to create and they put many years of hard work into it to just give up 75% of their employment so their NEW competitors can do events to. WTF are they thinking?

.

Mj


Ps.. I'm looking forward to your call tomorrow. Please remember, I will be doing sign-ups and a player auction from Noon until 3pm. I will be available from 11 am til noon or after 3pm.

 

[av84fun]

It's a simple business survical issue. lets say there are 4 tours operating in my region. Now as a business owner, am I supposed to work only 1 weekend a month and let my competitors work the other 3 ?

You are kidding, right?

Mike...the ISSUE is that if there are 4 tours working in your area there is a REASON for that!

I have no idea what the actual reasons are but they could include any of the following and more.

The other tours:

1. Pay more and/or pays deeper.

2. Are held in facilities that the players like more.

3. Are closer to there home.

4. Friendships/loyalties to the other promoters.

5. The best players intentionally dispersing which gives them each a better chance to cash in.

There is little you can do about #s 3 and 4 but 1 and 2 are variables over which you have THEORETICAL control.

I emphasized "theoretical" because even though it would be POSSIBLE for you to pay out so much prize money that no player would attend any other tour stop, it is probably not PRACTICAL for you to do so and THAT is the problem.

By limiting the incentive for the players to attend your events, you create the incentive for the existence of other tours.

What you can, should and are doing is singing the praises of your own tour in the attempt to convince the players to choose your product. As you know, that is what marketing is.

But you can sing all you want but at the end of the day, the players are going to choose the event that is best suited to THEM....not YOU.

IF KT had escrowed $20 million or so...kept his prize money and payout scale the way it was and forbad his tour members from playing in non-IPT events without his sanction, neither your or any other regional tour would have any top 100 players left and the regionals would return to being the "farm system" for roadies and wannabes.

Neither AOL nor Microsoft has a RIGHT to the internet search business as Google is proving on a daily basis.

AZ has no RIGHT to the on-line billiard site space but at least as far as the forum side of their business is concerned (I know little of the rest of their business model) they have quite simply labored in the vinyard and built a better mousetrap and now get...who knows...10 times the traffic of any other forum? 100 times???

And with great and genuine respect to you and your immense dedication to the sport, you have no RIGHT to the tour business...regional or otherwise.

Your mission...which you know far better than I...is to offer a product that is sufficiently superior to the other products that you will survive and prosper and they will fall by the wayside.

Free advice is, of course, worth the price more often than not but my advice to you is not to complain about the existence of competing tours but rather to attempt to PROVE that the PLAYER'S self-interests should compel them to attend your events instead of some other events.

If you continue to do that...and have the staying power, then you will win the game and the competition will lose.

But as things stand today AS FAR AS I KNOW...there is NO single tour that can provide a decent living, net of expenses, to any meaningful number of players and THEREFORE, there is more than one tour and there will continue to be more than one so long as the above scenario stays in place.

You are dealing with the forces of free market economics which is second only in sheer power to strategic nuclear weapons.

I wish you well...VERY well. I am sure no one works harder in this industry than you do and that should...and I am sure does...make a difference in the minds of the players.

But the limit of their gratitude for you comes to a screeching halt...on the first of every month when their bills arrive in the mail.

And that's the way it is...as Walter Cronkite used to say. (and all of you who remember who Cronkite is raise your hands...BOTH OF YOU!!)

(-:

Regards,
Jim

 

[MikeJanis]

Mike...the ISSUE is that if there are 4 tours working in your area there is a REASON for that!

I have no idea what the actual reasons are but they could include any of the following and more.

The other tours:

1. Pay more and/or pays deeper.

2. Are held in facilities that the players like more.

3. Are closer to there home.

4. Friendships/loyalties to the other promoters.

5. The best players intentionally dispersing which gives them each a better chance to cash in.

There is little you can do about #s 3 and 4 but 1 and 2 are variables over which you have THEORETICAL control.

I emphasized "theoretical" because even though it would be POSSIBLE for you to pay out so much prize money that no player would attend any other tour stop, it is probably not PRACTICAL for you to do so and THAT is the problem.

By limiting the incentive for the players to attend your events, you create the incentive for the existence of other tours.

What you can, should and are doing is singing the praises of your own tour in the attempt to convince the players to choose your product. As you know, that is what marketing is.

But you can sing all you want but at the end of the day, the players are going to choose the event that is best suited to THEM....not YOU.

IF KT had escrowed $20 million or so...kept his prize money and payout scale the way it was and forbad his tour members from playing in non-IPT events without his sanction, neither your or any other regional tour would have any top 100 players left and the regionals would return to being the "farm system" for roadies and wannabes.

Neither AOL nor Microsoft has a RIGHT to the internet search business as Google is proving on a daily basis.

AZ has no RIGHT to the on-line billiard site space but at least as far as the forum side of their business is concerned (I know little of the rest of their business model) they have quite simply labored in the vinyard and built a better mousetrap and now get...who knows...10 times the traffic of any other forum? 100 times???

And with great and genuine respect to you and your immense dedication to the sport, you have no RIGHT to the tour business...regional or otherwise.

Your mission...which you know far better than I...is to offer a product that is sufficiently superior to the other products that you will survive and prosper and they will fall by the wayside.

Free advice is, of course, worth the price more often than not but my advice to you is not to complain about the existence of competing tours but rather to attempt to PROVE that the PLAYER'S self-interests should compel them to attend your events instead of some other events.

If you continue to do that...and have the staying power, then you will win the game and the competition will lose.

But as things stand today AS FAR AS I KNOW...there is NO single tour that can provide a decent living, net of expenses, to any meaningful number of players and THEREFORE, there is more than one tour and there will continue to be more than one so long as the above scenario stays in place.

You are dealing with the forces of free market economics which is second only in sheer power to strategic nuclear weapons.

I wish you well...VERY well. I am sure no one works harder in this industry than you do and that should...and I am sure does...make a difference in the minds of the players.

But the limit of their gratitude for you comes to a screeching halt...on the first of every month when their bills arrive in the mail.

And that's the way it is...as Walter Cronkite used to say. (and all of you who remember who Cronkite is raise your hands...BOTH OF YOU!!)

(-:

Regards,
Jim

Jim, again, nice post. Believe me, as the largest longest running Open tour in the US the above mentioned is not the problem.

In the simplist terms. The problem is that anyone who expects a business owner to shut his business down for 3 weeks of the month so the other competing tours can also operate is insane (this is exactly what is meant by asking the regional tours not to conflict events on the same wekends).

Believe me, I love going head-2-head that moy competitors. The Viking Tour has more members (5X more than or closest competitor). We have more sponsorship dollars and products to offer room owners (more that 10X that of our closest cmpetitor) and our events are more cost effective than all others for the room owners.

Anyway, I could go on forever but I need some sleep. Take care and have a good night.

Mj

 

[av84fun]

Jim, that's a well thought out post and thanks for the props. However, back to you missing the point.

But I haven't missed the point...then or now. See my other recent post.

Mike H. originally wrote "We can't even get regional tours to work together right now to make sure that they don't schedule on top of each other."

I then wrote to Mike H stating: "You stating the above is like me saying I can not believe insidepoolmag.com and azbilliards.com can't find a way to work together so we only have to go to one web site to get all our news and info.....
Which is the same as me tellng him he should share his advertising dollars and potential personal income with his competitor.

Then you jumped in and we started conversing.

The origional point was to Mike H. about the many regional tours and how some of them are not beneficial to the sport. For instance('s), there is a tour that only operates in 1 pool room but its allowed to be considered a tour and the mags/web mags have given them credibility by simply saying their name as a tour or posting a link to their website under tours. And then there are substandard tours that serve no purpose other than to the director and then there is the mislabeling of events as tours which are actually series and not tours at all. All of these factors affect the player and sponsorship dollar pool which is in a contrasting state at the moment not to mention the confusion to the players.

All of the above merely resembles the fact that in the early part of the 20th Century, there were well over 100 ACTIVE automobile manufacturers...scores of railroads...hundreds of movie theater chains etc.

You must deal with those realities because you have no choice.


From an insiders point of view this is quite serious and there has been some bickering about it. You wouldn't konow that but there are many issues that are not discussed here that have a direct impact on the sport.

Now for Mike H. that knows these things to come here and say what he did was a bit out of line for someone with this inside knowledge. In my opinion anyway.

And that's what I was talking about when I stated that : "I'm pretty sure you missed the point and the fundamental understanding of my post as it pertains to the regional tours."

Thanks for the free market economic lesson anyway. If that was a pool game you could probably give the the blue through. But believe me when it comes to tours and their economic fundamentals I could spot you the win if you just hit a rail.

Mike, I've been posting here for quite a while and have revield very little about my personal life...business or otherwise...But you "called me out"...politely and I have no problem with that but here is my return of serve.

For over 35 years, it has been my primary "day job" to understand the fundamentals of large public business enterprises that engage in virtually every imaginable sector of the business world...and I have had to understand those businesses so thoroughly as to obtain an advantage over a very large number of people who would like to buy stock in better companies at a lower price than I and thereby take my clients as a result of superior performance.

But I'm still here Mike and with all due respect, understanding the dynamics of the pro touring business ranks as rather trivial compared to the challenges of understanding the wide array of businesses I have come to know intimately over the years.

Because I seem to get bored easily, I founded a company which owned 24 Jiffy Lube quick oil change centers in the Chicago market...which was the largest concentration of Jiffy Lube centers under common ownership in America.

I have produced or co-produced major Broadway plays and feature film projects.

I own a music publishing company here in Nashville that has owned songs that have appeared on record albums that have sold over 60 million units...and counting.

So, with genuine respect, if you want to play the "business game" with me I'll give you the 5 out and rob you...sir! (-:

Nothing personal but I live the tour life 24/7 and I love it.

Now, as a result of these conversations we got all the ya'hoos out there that think they actually have a clue and want someone who is in business to make the sport grow and make a living from the growth they helped to create and they put many years of hard work into it to just give up 75% of their employment so their NEW competitors can do events to. WTF are they thinking?

. One..."these conversations" didn't create the issues you just described.
Two, re: what are they thinking...they are thinking what I am thinking...which is, they don't care...much...about YOUR making a living...they care about THEMSELVES making a living.

And that is no criticism of them or you...it is just the law of the jungle and the business world IS a jungle as you well know.

"For instance('s), there is a tour that only operates in 1 pool room but its allowed to be considered a tour and the mags/web mags have given them credibility by simply saying their name as a tour or posting a link to their website under tours. "

Mike the PLAYERS could CARE LESS whether those "events" are called "tours" or "events" or "tournaments" or popcorn stands. What they CARE about is one thing and one thing only..."Can I make more money if I play there instead of a Viking stop?" PERIOD...END OF STORY.

Apparently, there are players who DO think so or the pool room would be empty on the event days.

As you have said to me...nothing personal...but IMHO it is your mission to PROVE to those players that attending YOUR event is a better deal for THEM than attending some other event.

Possibly it is you who misunderstand how this all works and again, nothing personal...but your posts seem to increasingly suggest that is true because the things I am point out to you are quite elementary business concepts that transcend the pool tour business and are true of ANY business.

PROVE that playing in your events is a superior choice and they will refuse to play in events sponsored by their own mothers. Fail to prove that and you will have competitors chewing on you from every point of the compass.

THAT is the case you should be making...if you have the proof...not complaining about your competitors because no one wants to hear that.

They want to hear about your tour schedule and the payouts and then they will decide whether to show up at your events or some others based on THEIR economics...not yours.


Ps.. I'm looking forward to your call tomorrow. Please remember, I will be doing sign-ups and a player auction from Noon until 3pm. I will be available from 11 am til noon or after 3pm.

Mike, I will call you after 3pm and will be happy to listen to anything you have to say...except that I am misunderstanding the issues because on that matter, we will have to agree to disagree...for many reasons...the most important of which is that I don't misunderstand the issues.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Jim, again, nice post. Believe me, as the largest longest running Open tour in the US the above mentioned is not the problem.

In the simplist terms. The problem is that anyone who expects a business owner to shut his business down for 3 weeks of the month so the other competing tours can also operate is insane (this is exactly what is meant by asking the regional tours not to conflict events on the same wekends).

Believe me, I love going head-2-head that moy competitors. The Viking Tour has more members (5X more than or closest competitor). We have more sponsorship dollars and products to offer room owners (more that 10X that of our closest cmpetitor) and our events are more cost effective than all others for the room owners.

Anyway, I could go on forever but I need some sleep. Take care and have a good night.

Mj

Thanks for the compliment...and back at ya.

Re: your comment in bold...no such people are not "insane" just naive and of course, you should utterly ignore such advice. But at the same time, you cannot suggest that THEY should not exist (the other events).

They exist simply and only because there is demand for the product they provide. Just keep punching...as you have better and more consistently than anyone else and you will win at the end of the day.

The most successful businesses on the planet virtually NEVER take ads suggesting that their competitor's products are inferior or that they shouldn't exist. They suggest that their products are superior and there is a profound difference in those two approaches.

Only politicians market the opposite way...and their credibility in national polls ALWAYS ranks lower than garbage collectors.

Take note. (-:

Regards,
Jim

 

[JAM]

...we got all the ya'hoos out there that think they actually have a clue...WTF are they thinking?

Have you been talking to Keith? Those are his exact words, except he doesn't say "ya'hoos" and uses another word instead.

JAM

 

[JAM]

....European pros speak good English even when it is not there mother tongue and can make cogent comments when they are interviewed or in the commentary box.

IMO

Everybody has an opinion.

That snooker player Ronnie sure did make a nice imperssion with his blue-blooded English twang describing his genital on stage in full view of the media and press.

How cogent his comments were using the so-called "mother tongue."

If English is the mother tongue, then the United States is the mother country for pool. Even the best pool forum in the world is based in the United States, and you're writing on it.

JAM

 

[JAM]

Can't let ya go with that. Have you ever talked to a baseball player? Are you aware of any pool players who ran dog fight operations or raped women in their hotel rooms?

Who cares if they can make eloquent conversation or whether they wear rags?

All I care about is watching 3 rail kicks for the cheese!

This is Ames mister!

(-:

Jim

I knew there was something I liked about you, Jim. Well said. Right on. Tap, tap, tap!

JAM

 

[worriedbeef]

Can't let ya go with that. Have you ever talked to a baseball player? Are you aware of any pool players who ran dog fight operations or raped women in their hotel rooms?

The difference is that baseball is an established sport and cemented in mainstream culture now. it's the same in the uk - premiership footballers don't have the greatest image in the world of late - every couple of months there's rape allegations, group orgy stories, and every week a lot of the top players act like overpaid primadonnas with nothing in common with the working man. but still people flock in their thousands every saturday and pack stadiums and watch these players with passion and enthusiasm regardless. Because once the sport is established to the extent that football is, and baseball in america, it takes a lot more than misbehaving stars to unsettle the ship.

But pool is a more delicate situation. it hasn't taken off at all, and isn't a huge popular part of culture. So the behaviour of the players has a bigger effect. I wouldn't go quite as far as what scaramouche said - but he does have a point. The players really do need to be going out of their way to appear friendly and likable, and act in a way that parents would approve of their children looking up to them. Plus the way they dress makes a difference as well. You slip on a tidy shirt instead of a huge baggy t-shirt and you instantly appear more presentable and professional. All of a sudden mommy feels more comfortable with the idea of her baby going up to talk to him.

These things seem trivial but when pool is struggling to establish itself and has a reputation and image like it does then they make a difference.

 

[JAM]

The difference is that baseball is an established sport and cemented in mainstream culture now. it's the same in the uk - premiership footballers don't have the greatest image in the world of late - every couple of months there's rape allegations, group orgy stories, and every week a lot of the top players act like overpaid primadonnas with nothing in common with the working man. but still people flock in their thousands every saturday and pack stadiums and watch these players with passion and enthusiasm regardless. Because once the sport is established to the extent that football is, and baseball in america, it takes a lot more than misbehaving stars to unsettle the ship.

But pool is a more delicate situation. it hasn't taken off at all, and isn't a huge popular part of culture. So the behaviour of the players has a bigger effect. I wouldn't go quite as far as what scaramouche said - but he does have a point. The players really do need to be going out of their way to appear friendly and likable, and act in a way that parents would approve of their children looking up to them. Plus the way they dress makes a difference as well. You slip on a tidy shirt instead of a huge baggy t-shirt and you instantly appear more presentable and professional. All of a sudden mommy feels more comfortable with the idea of her baby going up to talk to him.

These things seem trivial but when pool is struggling to establish itself and has a reputation and image like it does then they make a difference.

I'm not sure what pro tournaments y'all are going to, but the ones I have been to, there is a dress code. All the competitors are wearing leather shoes, slacks -- not jeans -- nice shirts, et cetera.

Also, the players always seem to oblige the fans in any way they can by stopping to have their pictures taken, signing autographs, and sometimes even taking some time to provide a little advice on their pool game. I have seen many pro player spending hours with young children, showing them how to hold a cue, how to pocket a ball, et cetera. MANY, MANY HOURS, I might add, doing this for free, only becuase they love doing it out of the kindness of their collective hearts.

I just can't see why there is any reason that players are the culprit for pool being on the bottom rung of the sports ladder. If anything, it is the opinion of some of pool's very own culture, describing pro players "scum of the earth" and "no better than a garbage collector," that may contribute to some of the low self-esteem that pool as a sport continues to have, at least in the United States.

The problem I think is that the players are too accessible to fans and pool enthusiasts. You would think this would be ideal and people would like it, such as the atmosphere of the DCC, but reading some of the opinions expressed on this thread and others in the past, I am beginning to think differently.

My own personal contribution to pool, one of many I might add, has been spending $5,000-plus on photographs and postage for a player to connect with the fans. Yet, I am accused on this forum many times of doing nothing for the betterment of pool.

I don't get it, and I guess I never will. Maybe hanging out on AzBilliards is the problem. If you read some of the opinions here, you come away with a terrible taste in your mouth.

JAM

 

[Nine Ball]

what i mean is i dont want to try and travel to 40 tourneys a year that are 2 thousand added.also dont want one tourney thats 400,000 added once a year.we need about 10 tourneys that are 50,000 -100,000 added.that way your traveling costs are not through the roof.

John,

I said this below just the other day in another thread.

There's no money in pool. Obviously right..

A lot of the little tourns usually pay what? Between $1200 and $2k for first. There are some exceptions.

By the time you pay for your room, Gas, Entry, Food, etc. your in roughly $500 unless the tourn is very close to where you are.

So to actually make anything without gambling on the side you'll need to take 1st or 2nd. Am I wrong? and 3rd will get you about even or a very small amount winner..

It would be great to be able to make a living off of tourns because gambling for a living can be and is rough.

So much as you said, Your off to the golf course.. I go to the poker table..

 

[JAM]

John,

I said this below just the other day in another thread.

There's no money in pool. Obviously right..

A lot of tourns usually pay what? Between $1200 and $2k for first. There are some exceptions.

By the time you pay for your room, Gas, Entry, Food, etc. your in roughly $500 unless the tourn is very close to where you are.

So to actually make anything without glambling on the side you'll need to take 1st or 2nd. Am I wrong? and 3rd will get you about even or a very small amount winner..

It would be great to be able to make a living off of tourns because gambling for a living can be and is rough.

So much as you said, Your off to the golf course.. I go to the poker table..

You post the truth. I have been saying this for years. You have to win, place, or show in order to break even at most events. Even when you do win, you're stuck from the other ones you went to.

Players like you are the future of American pool. We need the younger players to push forward and give it all they got. However, there comes a time when reality sets in. You gotta make ends meet.

Unless you have a sponsor in pool, the costs are very difficult to overcome. You can pick and choose your tournaments wisely, but even then, it's tough to make a living, much less try to hone your skills and climb the professional pool ladder.

Are you a member of the UPA, and if not, have you considered becoming a member?

JAM

 

[Nine Ball]

You post the truth. I have been saying this for years. You have to win, place, or show in order to break even at most events. Even when you do win, you're stuck from the other ones you went to.

Players like you are the future of American pool. We need the younger players to push forward and give it all they got. However, there comes a time when reality sets in. You gotta make ends meet.

Unless you have a sponsor in pool, the costs are very difficult to overcome. You can pick and choose your tournaments wisely, but even then, it's tough to make a living, much less try to hone your skills and climb the professional pool ladder.

Are you a member of the UPA, and if not, have you considered becoming a member?

JAM

Jam,

No, I'm not a member of anything. I hardly play as it is because of the small funds in pool events and the high costs to attend.

I used to love the game and played 10 hours a day, No lie, For a long time. Then it finally hit me, Where's the money in it?

The love faded and it just became a grind. I began to hate pool but it was one of my sources for funds, So I kept playing here and there..

Got real excited when the IPT came out as players finally had a chance to make a decent living in the game of pool without all the gambling day in and out.

Started playing long hours again, Very excited. Played an IPT qual and got my ticket in to it just as it was going under. The qual was so crappy I basically just paid a $2k entry into the event I was qualifying for.

After that I went back to the maybe once a week, At times only once a month. Put more time into selling cues and playing cards.

Just as I have branded myself under my SN, Professional Slacker.

I'm not blowing my horn or claiming to be something great but I do have the ability to play some great pool and I am a good player. I just lack the motivation as I clearly see the no money in the game now.

and I surely don't want to be grinding out a living in pool for the rest of my life.

 

[JAM]

Jam,

No, I'm not a member of anything. I hardly play as it is because of the small funds in pool events and the high costs to attend.

I used to love the game and played 10 hours a day, No lie, For a long time. Then it finally hit me, Where's the money in it?

The love faded and it just became a grind. I began to hate pool but it was one of my sources for funds, So I kept playing here and there..

Got real excited when the IPT came out as players finally had a chance to make a decent living in the game of pool without all the gambling day in and out.

Started playing long hours again, Very excited. Played an IPT qual and got my ticket in to it just as it was going under. The qual was so crappy I basically just paid a $2k entry into the event I was qualifying for.

After that I went back to the maybe once a week, At times only once a month. Put more time into selling cues and playing cards.

Just as I have branded myself under my SN, Professional Slacker.

I'm not blowing my horn or claiming to be something great but I do have the ability to play some great pool and I am a good player. I just lack the motivation as I clearly see the no money in the game now.

and I surely don't want to be grinding out a living in pool for the rest of my life.

And therein lies the problem with American pool. Competent aspiring professionals, like yourself, have the skills set to shine brightly, but there is no desire to go forward because, quite frankly, it will bankrupt you, financially and emotionally.

I hear you loud and clear. I feel exactly the same way as you, which is why I have not been on the tournament trail since July 2006. I'm sick of driving hundred and hundreds of miles, spending 30- and $40,000 per year on expenses. When you do win, you're too stuck to enjoy it!

God bless you. Hope to see you at the U.S. Open. That's the only tournament I know of for sure that I am going to this year, and that is subject to change, depending on my work.

The U.S. Open, the $2,500 cost of it, will be my vacation this year.

JAM

 

[Scaramouche]

Can't let ya go with that. Have you ever talked to a baseball player? Are you aware of any pool players who ran dog fight operations or raped women in their hotel rooms?

Who cares if they can make eloquent conversation or whether they wear rags?

All I care about is watching 3 rail kicks for the cheese!

This is Ames mister!

(-:

Jim

I must confess, I don't talk to baseball players. But Bobby Cox lived on my floor when he was coaching the Blue Jays. Would he count for anything on your value scale?

And just how many people are paying to see Vick play now?

All Vick's wealth is going out the door. He borrowed money from the Royal Bank. In a recent court ruling he has to repay immediately because he violated various provisions in the loan agreement related to his professionalism, such professionalism being the prerequisite to an opportunity to earn big bucks.

If all you care about is the game, you have a hobby. Quit the incessant b******* about nobody paying you to play.

If you aspire to be a professional, behave accordingly.

And another thing: Ames had no sponsors, only gambling, and no media coverage either.

IMO