So you've just broken the pack and here's what you are left with. What are your first two or three shots and why? I'll post mine below.
Here's one for Bluepepper (and anyone else)
- Thread starter Dan White
- Start date
So you've just broken the pack and here's what you are left with. What are your first two or three shots and why? I'll post mine below.
There are two pages to this one. For some reason I can't get multiple pages to work on one diagram in this forum, so I posted both pages separately.
My thinking is that I do not like the 14 - 2 break shot. I would be pushing balls from the pack into other balls, and I have no safety ball. I COULD consider the 14-2 sequence just another opening break, and go for a little luck, but I think I have a better option that will give me better odds of getting through the rack.
Above, I go into the 9 just hard (or soft) enough to pop the 12 and 15 out. IF I hit the 9 square on, I'll have the 10 as a safety ball. If I miss the target and graze the 8 instead, I'll have the 6 or maybe 10 as a safety. The strategy is that I'm comfortable enough that I think I can make a good hit on the 9, thus just about assuring a shot on the 6 or 10. I know at this point my pack will be looser than it was, and I have a guaranteed next shot. I think that puts me in a better position that I was, and I didn't have to go for a pot luck breakout with the 14-2 sequence.
second page:
This is a good possible layout after the first shot. I'm starting with the red dot cue ball, and my objective is to break the pack from the top with the 12. I have to come across the position zone (yellow) but I think it is possible. If I overshoot, the purple area shows my zone for shooting the 2, which is not my first choice, but keeps me going in the event of bad position play off the 3.
The idea of breaking into the cluster from the top is that the 7/11/15 makes a nice little triangle that should keep my cue ball from going too far. I'm going to hit the 12 firm with slight draw. Glancing into the 7/11 as shown will spread all the balls on that side nicely, and I should have the 13 as a safety ball. I'll probably also have the 15 and/or 14 as safety balls, but the 13 is pretty for sure.
Predicting the layout beyond this point would be silly. My thought in this sequence is to make a couple of touch shots (shot on the 4, and shot on the 3) while assuring safety balls, rather than playing pot luck by blasting into the 2 with a 14-2 sequence from the start.
Any comments/criticism welcome.
My thinking is that I do not like the 14 - 2 break shot. I would be pushing balls from the pack into other balls, and I have no safety ball. I COULD consider the 14-2 sequence just another opening break, and go for a little luck, but I think I have a better option that will give me better odds of getting through the rack.
Above, I go into the 9 just hard (or soft) enough to pop the 12 and 15 out. IF I hit the 9 square on, I'll have the 10 as a safety ball. If I miss the target and graze the 8 instead, I'll have the 6 or maybe 10 as a safety. The strategy is that I'm comfortable enough that I think I can make a good hit on the 9, thus just about assuring a shot on the 6 or 10. I know at this point my pack will be looser than it was, and I have a guaranteed next shot. I think that puts me in a better position that I was, and I didn't have to go for a pot luck breakout with the 14-2 sequence.
second page:
This is a good possible layout after the first shot. I'm starting with the red dot cue ball, and my objective is to break the pack from the top with the 12. I have to come across the position zone (yellow) but I think it is possible. If I overshoot, the purple area shows my zone for shooting the 2, which is not my first choice, but keeps me going in the event of bad position play off the 3.
The idea of breaking into the cluster from the top is that the 7/11/15 makes a nice little triangle that should keep my cue ball from going too far. I'm going to hit the 12 firm with slight draw. Glancing into the 7/11 as shown will spread all the balls on that side nicely, and I should have the 13 as a safety ball. I'll probably also have the 15 and/or 14 as safety balls, but the 13 is pretty for sure.
Predicting the layout beyond this point would be silly. My thought in this sequence is to make a couple of touch shots (shot on the 4, and shot on the 3) while assuring safety balls, rather than playing pot luck by blasting into the 2 with a 14-2 sequence from the start.
Any comments/criticism welcome.
Dan, the wei table problem has to do with the original diagram containing not only your example, but 8 of the pages that I had in my "random run" thread layout. If you click on the edit button you'll see that all 9 pages show up in a big new window. As long as you cut at least one of those pages all 8 would show up, not that you want all 8. You have to keep the layouts 8 pages or under to show up in the forum.
Thanks for doing a layout. I certainly don't want to have a monopoly on posting them. Please keep it up. As for this particualr layout, I first thought about trying to get rid of some of the balls around the cluster and then having some security ball to back me up when I went into the rack, but since my cueball control isn't anywhere near where it should be, I think I'd do the following, which seems to be what others so far would do. I'd take my chances with ending up with something by using follow and driving through the balls.
Thanks for doing a layout. I certainly don't want to have a monopoly on posting them. Please keep it up. As for this particualr layout, I first thought about trying to get rid of some of the balls around the cluster and then having some security ball to back me up when I went into the rack, but since my cueball control isn't anywhere near where it should be, I think I'd do the following, which seems to be what others so far would do. I'd take my chances with ending up with something by using follow and driving through the balls.
BP
I think you wold be better off following on the 14 ball or using a stun shot as I show in the below diagram. In your example, you are actually on the wrong side of the 2 ball. In my diagram, after pocketing the 14, I have an ideal angle to contact the 11, which will separate that entire cluster nicely.
I'm not worried about moving the 13 because I have a good chance of having the 12 replace it when I contact the 11... even if I lose that break ball, there are enough balls in the bottom of the stack that will work just fine.
Refer to the post I made about breaking up clusters
A Class On Clusters
In that thread, I list the rules you should use when going into the stack.
I think you wold be better off following on the 14 ball or using a stun shot as I show in the below diagram. In your example, you are actually on the wrong side of the 2 ball. In my diagram, after pocketing the 14, I have an ideal angle to contact the 11, which will separate that entire cluster nicely.
I'm not worried about moving the 13 because I have a good chance of having the 12 replace it when I contact the 11... even if I lose that break ball, there are enough balls in the bottom of the stack that will work just fine.
Refer to the post I made about breaking up clusters
A Class On Clusters
In that thread, I list the rules you should use when going into the stack.
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I just don't see anything better happening by drawing the ball. On my screen it looks like the cueball will barely graze the 11. The 9 and 15 are the only balls really feeling anything from what I can see.
I do wonder what type of screens people are viewing these diagrams on. Mine is a flat laptop LCD screen, and I've suggested before that people viewing on a curved CRT screen may be seeing these layouts very differently.
I do wonder what type of screens people are viewing these diagrams on. Mine is a flat laptop LCD screen, and I've suggested before that people viewing on a curved CRT screen may be seeing these layouts very differently.
I have a flat screen, too. Blackjack, on my screen your angles don't appear possible. It's too bad because on layouts like this that can make a big difference.
So what's wrong with my sequence? Too touchy? Too much chance for not getting where I want the cue ball? I'm trying to find out what others think the biggest drawback to my method is. For me, breaking with the two and following into the pack isn't horrible, you just don't have any sure shots next. Whenever I'm not sure where the cue ball is going, I tend to get into trouble. So if I see a sequence I think I can execute, and KNOW that I will have a next shot, I tend to take that one.
Thanks.
So what's wrong with my sequence? Too touchy? Too much chance for not getting where I want the cue ball? I'm trying to find out what others think the biggest drawback to my method is. For me, breaking with the two and following into the pack isn't horrible, you just don't have any sure shots next. Whenever I'm not sure where the cue ball is going, I tend to get into trouble. So if I see a sequence I think I can execute, and KNOW that I will have a next shot, I tend to take that one.
Thanks.
Dan White said:
I just looked at it and I see that the line for the 2 IS sort of wacky - I'm pretty sure I didn't diagram it like that, but there it is... sorry... I'll clarify
Just snip the 14 into the side and use the 2 to break up the cluster. I'm just (for the sake of discussion) giving a general direction for the cue ball to go after pocketing the 2 ball - you want it to deflect off of the 2 and towards the 11-15-7 cavity... I would go for trying to contact the 11 (which is possible) and vital to ensure you don't get stuck inside the cluster.
Dan,
I would never use the 4 ball to go into the cluster off of the rail. It is my experience that if the balls are laying like this, and you have secondary break balls ready and available (such as the 2, 13, 6, and 4 balls) - none of them are sitting dangerously/ or out of reach to where you need to come off of the rail like that to contact the stack.
I would only use that rail if I had no other options. I think its wise to proceed and set up for one of those balls WITHOUT USING THE RAIL - all of them work very well - especially the 4 ball -again... without using that rail. I believe that using that rail takes away some of the control of the cue ball - and many times I have hit that same shot and had the cue ball stick to the stack, or I was left shooting over balls, or I made a worse mess than I started with. You're pattern just isn't the way that I would go - but hey - if you like those shots, go for them!
I have other options.
A few more options
I still think that going in off of the 2 immediately is what I would do. I know that we're told to avoid going into clusters without insurance balls, but in this case I see the break shot as one that will destroy the cluster, with that 11,7,15 pocket.
Again to be thorough I made a few more layouts of possibilities.
This one I don't like because of the convex shape of the cluster contact area:
I like this a little better because of the insurance balls after the breakout, plus the balls are being broken away from already open balls. But the 3 and 4 are slightly difficult to fall perfectly on:
I don't know for sure how the balls below the rack would end up after the combination, but something like this wouldn't be all bad, I think:
And here, if you go to long, you have the 3-ball as backup:
I still think that going in off of the 2 immediately is what I would do. I know that we're told to avoid going into clusters without insurance balls, but in this case I see the break shot as one that will destroy the cluster, with that 11,7,15 pocket.
Again to be thorough I made a few more layouts of possibilities.
This one I don't like because of the convex shape of the cluster contact area:
I like this a little better because of the insurance balls after the breakout, plus the balls are being broken away from already open balls. But the 3 and 4 are slightly difficult to fall perfectly on:
I don't know for sure how the balls below the rack would end up after the combination, but something like this wouldn't be all bad, I think:
And here, if you go to long, you have the 3-ball as backup:
My general approach if I'm comfortable with the table is to get more loose balls off before the re-break. That would begin 14 - 3 - 4. Depending on how I got on the 4, I might break with it using a standard bottom-of-the-rack technique or I might go the side and out for the 2 as a break, or I might (with a very good angle on the 4) play position on the 6 and clear some more loose balls. I would certainly not immediately break again with the 4.Dan White said:
Thanks for the various replies. I should note that the reason I posted this layout is to create discussion between the option of breaking again with 14-2, or doing something else. I also like the 14-3-4 break from behind option because the six is there as a safety ball.
I find when I'm shooting well about the only time I get into trouble is when I'm playing the percentages. Meaning, I know I've got a good break shot, but I don't have certainty what my next shot will be. My sequence, starting with the 4, is NOT a break shot from behind. I think of it more like using the 9 to pop the 12 out, opening the pack a little bit, and assuring a shot on the 10 (or 6). I think my sequence assures an open pack without the uncertainty of a next shot. BUT I realize that the rail shot can be touchy, and if you hit it wrong you can be stuck. I feel like if I'm at 100% probability of being able to send the cue ball between the 6 and 9 gap, then I should be in pretty good shape to hit the 9 if that is what I want to do. Am I wrong on this? Do you think too much precision is needed to assure contact with the 9?
Thanks,
I find when I'm shooting well about the only time I get into trouble is when I'm playing the percentages. Meaning, I know I've got a good break shot, but I don't have certainty what my next shot will be. My sequence, starting with the 4, is NOT a break shot from behind. I think of it more like using the 9 to pop the 12 out, opening the pack a little bit, and assuring a shot on the 10 (or 6). I think my sequence assures an open pack without the uncertainty of a next shot. BUT I realize that the rail shot can be touchy, and if you hit it wrong you can be stuck. I feel like if I'm at 100% probability of being able to send the cue ball between the 6 and 9 gap, then I should be in pretty good shape to hit the 9 if that is what I want to do. Am I wrong on this? Do you think too much precision is needed to assure contact with the 9?
Thanks,
I'll take the 14, 3, 4...
I like to pick off a few blueberries here...the 14 and 3-balls...come up from behind the pack with the 4-ball...create a few break ball opportunities...all the while having insurance balls to the corner in the unlikely case of not getting a good spread with little effort on the 4-ball.
Mike
I like to pick off a few blueberries here...the 14 and 3-balls...come up from behind the pack with the 4-ball...create a few break ball opportunities...all the while having insurance balls to the corner in the unlikely case of not getting a good spread with little effort on the 4-ball.
Mike
Dan White said:
I'm a big security-minded player. So I understand your reasoning to have back ups when going into a cluster.
The way I see it, I don't see you getting stuck on the underside of the pack with that shot on the 4 the way you played it with heavy right spin. But you could end up in center field amid two or three shots, rather than comfortably lined up for one, like the 10. Also holding the cueball for the angle on the 3 might not be doable unless you go to the cushion and out, which wouldn't be too bad, but you'd probably have the wrong angle on the 3 for the rest of your run.
I posted earlier that I don't like being claustrophobic like where you end up after the 4. You just have very little leeway to get perfect on shots. I also hate those inside english shots, so I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with the 4-ball from the start when there are other easy shots to work with.
But I like seeing all legitimate ways to do a run. How else are we going to get out of our bad habits unless we try the table in different ways. I've already had some light bulb moments in the short time we've been doing this.