He's back

[Sarnia Shorty]

Can't say in all the places I have been to play pool there has ever been a master level player waiting to teach the lower players anything.

As Dub said there are many players above my skill level as well but they have no intentions of teaching players anything.

 

[lfigueroa]

Again, it comes back to the fact that this is not a democracy, its a privately owned forum and business. If you don't like the way the owner and mods run it, you are more than welcome to not participate and support their product. They don't have to answer to you, me or anyone why they choose to do things in a given way. As for PP, his tone was rude, over-bearing and border line psychotic. His actions since his initial ban only support his banishment.

I would like to think that, though the site belongs to someone else, that someone (and his minions) don't operate in a vacuum. IOW, if someone here voices a cogent, logical opinion about how things are going and/or should be going, I would like to believe that that would have an impact on future operations. It doesn't have to, but I like to think it would.

As for PP, I didn't quite understand why he got whacked. OK, he' didn't like bar table players (personally I think you're all a bunch of weenies too -- I kid, I kid And he thought people were wasting their time buying pool instruction. Big deal.

And frankly, when you write "his tone was rude, over-bearing and border line psychotic" PP is most definitely absolutely and without a doubt NOT the first poster here I think of (are you out there, John

I think the villagers here just all got their collective panties in a bunch over not much. Just my opinion.

Lou Figueroa

 

[RDeca]

And I suppose you'll be supplying us with a listing of these "rooms" with experts willing to help? Cuz there sure ain't any near me. Don't get me wrong, there are many people who are FAR better players than I an here locally, but that doens't mean they are capable (or willing) to actually teach me anything. Teaching is a whole different animal from having the ability to play well.

what do you need taught???? most of the better players have gotten that way by being observant and paying attention to details....

you cant really teach someone stroke,,,they have to figure it themselves throu repitition, but if you have a question about a pattern or a particular shot during a course of a game just go up to the guy and ask why he played the rack the way he did. or what he thinks you should do in your current shot situation...(only if hes not busy of course)

alot of things are experience calls....wich takes a while too learn...like when to go for a breakout ....or when to play safe...when to be agressive offensively. people cant really teach you this...unless your in the situation and they are right there to say something....but no two tables are the same...and that person isnt going to be there all the time to help you....so you just have to figure it yourself throu experience and watching others make good decisions and bad decisions,or riskey decisions that turn out right.

 

[RDeca]

...................

 

[RDeca]

Can't say in all the places I have been to play pool there has ever been a master level player waiting to teach the lower players anything.

As Dub said there are many players above my skill level as well but they have no intentions of teaching players anything.

here is what you do...if they are playing practicing by themself introduce yourself ...ask if they would like to play a few games....while you are playing those games....you have a front row seat and can ask him occasional questions, its really that simple....

nobody is gonna be sitting in the pool room with a sign that says free lessons.:wink2:

 

[justadub]

what do you need taught???? most of the better players have gotten that way by being observant and paying attention to details....

you cant really teach someone stroke,,,they have to figure it themselves throu repitition, but if you have a question about a pattern or a particular shot during a course of a game just go up to the guy and ask why he played the rack the way he did. or what he thinks you should do in your current shot situation...(only if hes not busy of course)

alot of things are experience calls....wich takes a while too learn...like when to go for a breakout ....or when to play safe...when to be agressive offensively. people cant really teach you this...unless your in the situation and they are right there to say something....but no two tables are the same...and that person isnt going to be there all the time to help you....so you just have to figure it yourself throu experience and watching others make good decisions and bad decisions,or riskey decisions that turn out right.

There is no doubt that you are correct, many people have gotten to be very, very good by watching, observing and through repetition. No argument.

In my opinion, getting instruction can shorten the learning curve. There isn't anything wrong with that. That doesn't mean it's a shortcut. But if someone can observe what I'm doing incorrectly and help me straighten it out, that is a heck of a lot faster than me figuring it out on my won, through repetition.

There is no teaching experience. But again, being taught some things that can happen and how to deal with them can be taught to an individual. If you are more prepared for a particular situation when it occurs, you have a better chance of success in dealing with it.

I would love to be able to sit for hours and hit a million balls. Ain't gonna happen in my world. Anything I can do to make progress is just that.... progress.

 

[lfigueroa]

i can understand making fun of all 3 :0 especially "instructors". Knowledge to play better pool should be free.

Knowledge to play pool is free.

Knowledge to play good pool is gonna cost ya ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[RDeca]

when you step to the table you have to have supreme confidence in your shot. if you dont you will probably miss.

and when you do miss, dont get rattled by it. so bad that it effects your next shot at the table negativly

you cant get better at pool by not putting in the personal effort....if you play 2 hrs a week....your gonna play like someone who plays 2 hrs a week....if you play 1 hr a day your gonna play better, really soon,,, and then beat the crap out of the guy who plays two hrs a week.

this is assuming the guy who currently plays 2 hrs a week started playing at the same time and about the same skill level you did...there are no shortcuts, and alot of very important things in the game of pool that an instructor cannot teach. all a instructor is really good for is teaching you how to or what to practice....and that really only can go so far.

 

[the420trooper]

Can't say in all the places I have been to play pool there has ever been a master level player waiting to teach the lower players anything.

As Dub said there are many players above my skill level as well but they have no intentions of teaching players anything.

Have you tried asking?

The hierarchical journey that each pool player takes is pretty interesting. We all start out as bangers, and we either improve independently, or someone takes us under their wing and shows us some things.

Bangers fear and respect higher level players, until they become one themselves...then they remember the way the good players treated them, and they respond in kind to the new breed of bangers.

Many good players would be happy to help out someone who is a few steps behind them on the journey to perfection...they remember what it feels like to never ever run a rack, and they probably wish that someone had taken the time to show them a few simple things.

The problem is that many bangers want the higher level players banned from competition with lower level players. Good players realize this, and are often unwilling to offer instruction unless it's explicitly requested.

They may be thinking, "I had to learn the hard way, so should you."

Asking a better player for help with something may just be the ego stroke they need to pay attention to you.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[RDeca]

The amount of sheer ignorance you show in one post makes one believe you are just another reincarnation of pocket point. You don't know what you don't know, and you shouldn't spout off at the mouth about things you don't know diddly about.

Incidentally, since when is knowledge about anything free? Most of what you pay for when you employ someone such as a plumber, mechanic, electrician, ect. is paying for their knowledge. Good things cost. Time to grow up and learn that. You want the cheap way, go ask someone in some room to teach you that probably doesn't know squat themselves. See how far back that sets your game.

you didnt read my posts
....
ive grown up around the some of the best amatures in the country i just dont practice as much as they do.
i know enuff about the game
...to know that its quite a bit more than diddley
and no im not pocket point....whoever he is.

whats your point.
i signed up to this forum because i heard it was a good place to get a decent deal on a cue(wich i did thanks Mike at Cheapcues) . and started reading into things a little bit.
to say im some guy named pocket point is absurd

 

[phread59]

RDeca you are so very, very, very wrong. As some of the people here know. I shoot International smallbore and air rifle competitivly. I know a number of coaches and instructors who are not any kind of a master class shooter. I know of 1 who doesn't even shoot himself. However these coaches have turned out National, International and even Olympic class shooters. I know of 2 Olympians who were tought by several of these coaches.

You do not have to be a world class competitor to teach sucessfully. You need to recognize what a student is doing right and wrong. Build on the good and work to change the bad. I agree that scrapping everything someone is doing and teaching a pet system is wrong. People are different. Body size, weight and condition need be taken into account. As well as physical limitations, such as injured backs, hands and so on. But a good instructor realizes the limitations and works with what is there and brings out the best results with these limitations.

High skill level is not needed. But understanding of the game is. And this is why I disagree strongly with you're statement.

Mark Shuman

 

[justadub]

To follow that up, how come Tiger Woods has had swing coaches for years. He has been arguably the best golfer of several generations, if not all-time. Who could hit a ball better than him over the last 10 years? Yet he trusted people to help him with his swing.

There have been several famous batting coaches in major league baseball over the years, yet they were never successful hitters in the majors.

I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[brophog]

There have been several famous batting coaches in major league baseball over the years, yet they were never successful hitters in the majors.

There's a pretty distinct negative correlation between greatness as a player and success as a coach.

Not in every case, obviously, but often times the personalities that make a player great are what get in the way of coaching.

One of the reasons a coach is helpful in these kinds of endeavors is the ability to get live feedback. You can't see everything that is going on in your swing. Coaches not only can bring knowledge, which is more important for the novice, but they bring a roaming set of eyes. When working with a top class player, the coach is more ears than mouth.

For pool, you can do an awful lot yourself with live video work. The problem with pool is that the stroke all takes place behind your head. So, without some form of feedback, your body begins to compensate for what the eyes are telling it from the front only, and you therefore develop 'bad habits'. You attempt to fix problems by only seeing the effects, rather than looking for their causes.

A simple camera on a tripod behind you and a small monitor in front are invaluable assets for not only correcting, but maintaining one's stroke.

 

[RDeca]

To follow that up, how come Tiger Woods has had swing coaches for years. He has been arguably the best golfer of several generations, if not all-time. Who could hit a ball better than him over the last 10 years? Yet he trusted people to help him with his swing.

There have been several famous batting coaches in major league baseball over the years, yet they were never successful hitters in the majors.

I'm sure there are other examples.

a coach can teach mechanics sure....he can see you while your shooting, wich helps because you cant really look at yourself while playing.

we are talking about pool....not hitting a baseball or golfball pure wich rely's pretty much on solid mechanics....

Pool isn't all about mechanics, but then neither is golf or baseball. but golf and baseball is more mechanics oriented...the strokes are much more complicated than the one used for billiards, because a billiard stroke only uses the upper body, basically, the elbow, and wrist. your bridge hand doesn't move and your lower body doesn't move.

sure there are different strokes and applications for those strokes in the game of pool...an instructor thats never played the game cant show you that because he doesnt know how to shoot. A good player can demonstrate the shot and the application for you but,
You still have to get the feel for them yourself.....

That's why so many golfers struggle with putting and short game but are great off the tee and in fairways....they have to work on their short game more independently and learn to trust their instincts.

if you get lessons and then still only play an hour or two a week your not going to improve...your just wasting your money

if you don't get lessons and spend your money on table time at a pool hall for 6-10 hrs a week you will improve. You can achieve a high level of playing ability with out ever having any "professional paid instruction" and just watching people play and playing better opponents and picking their brains a little.

if you feel like you need lessons then get them by all means .

but
there is so much instinct and feel involved in pool that an instructor just cant help you with...



for a beginner or even a more seasoned player you can train your stroke to be straight in pool with an empty Jager bottle on the kitchen table.

 

[justadub]

a coach can teach mechanics sure....he can see you while your shooting, wich helps because you cant really look at yourself while playing.

we are talking about pool....not hitting a baseball or golfball pure wich rely's pretty much on solid mechanics....

Pool isn't all about mechanics, but then neither is golf or baseball. but golf and baseball is more mechanics oriented...the strokes are much more complicated than the one used for billiards, because a billiard stroke only uses the upper body, the elbow, and wrist. your bridge hand doesn't move and your lower body doesn't move.

sure there are different strokes and applications for those strokes in the game of pool...an instructor thats never played the game cant show you that because he doesnt know how to shoot. A good player can demonstrate the shot and the application for you but,
You still have to get the feel for them yourself.....

That's why so many golfers struggle with putting and short game but are great off the tee and in fairways....they have to work on that part of there game more independently and learn to trust their instincts.

if you get lessons and then still only play an hour or two a week your not going to improve...your just wasting your money

if you don't get lessons and spend your money on table time at a pool hall for 6-10 hrs a week you will improve. You can achieve a high level of playing ability with out ever having any "professional paid instruction" and just watching people play and playing better opponents and picking their brains a little.

there is so much instinct and feel involved in pool that an instructor just cant help you with...



you can train your stroke to be straight in pool with an empty Jager bottle on the kitchen table.

Of course there no exact correlations between types of coaching, but everything that has a physical element can be coached. Pool isn't so easy as you make it out to be. There is an awful lot going on, when you break it down.

Yes, you can train your stroke with a bottle, but that is in one fixed position. Just like many folks can be taught how to swing a bat properly, until it comes time to actually hit a ball. There is the application of mechanics to the situation at hand.

You simply refuse to give pool instructors any credit. That's your prerogative. Many, many folks choose to disagree with you. Including me. (And I haven't had a formal pool lesson yet. Key word being "yet".)

 

[RDeca]

Of course there no exact correlations between types of coaching, but everything that has a physical element can be coached. Pool isn't so easy as you make it out to be. There is an awful lot going on, when you break it down.

Yes, you can train your stroke with a bottle, but that is in one fixed position. Just like many folks can be taught how to swing a bat properly, until it comes time to actually hit a ball. There is the application of mechanics to the situation at hand.

You simply refuse to give pool instructors any credit. That's your prerogative. Many, many folks choose to disagree with you. Including me. (And I haven't had a formal pool lesson yet. Key word being "yet".)

i didnt say pool was easy...i said there is no substitution for table time basically. I want to ask some touring pros if they have a trainer for their pool stroke....i bet most of them dont.....they work on their game independently...., some of that might have to do with it costing too much money. Could you imagine earl strickland with a stroke coach....lol most of the better pool players, just like Great Musicians are naturals because they started young....they dont need a coach, they do better figuring on their own...

Justadub get your lessons and play the same amount of time that you currently do....you will not improve very much.
now if you get your lessons and start playing more you will improve..

let me know how your lessons work out for you, ive never had a lesson either.

ive been around the game, high level shooters my whole life...ive watched them my whole life
im 30 now....i just need to have more time to work on my game. if i could play atleast 10 hrs a week id be a master caliber player within a year. i honestly believe that.... right now im a mid level open player...i can beat great players just not consistantly, my saftey play is pretty good my patterns are good... i just need the consistency and focus wich all comes with Table time.

 

[cmbwsu]

Does anyone need any water or some popcorn maybe?

 

[Mikjary]

Have you tried asking?...Asking a better player for help with something may just be the ego stroke they need to pay attention to you.

This is a seminal observation that could have some dividends attached.

Best,
Mike

 

[justadub]

i didnt say pool was easy...i said there is no substitution for table time basically. I want to ask some touring pros if they have a trainer for their pool stroke....i bet most of them dont.....they work on their game independently...., some of that might have to do with it costing too much money. Could you imagine earl strickland with a stroke coach....lol most of the better pool players, just like Great Musicians are naturals because they started young....they dont need a coach, they do better figuring on their own

And these folks will devote their lives to what they do. Much of their waking moments.

What we are talking about here is a pool instructor. For people who want to get better at the game. The only reason pro's are in the discussion is as an example of high level athletes getting coaching.

The majority of pool instructors clients are quite likely less than pro, down to beginner level. I truly think you are misguided to believe that people cannot be helped by an instructor. Especially those of us who aren't "naturals".

Additionally, and to your point of "Could you imagine earl strickland with a stroke coach" remember the culture of the high-level pool player in the US. What does it revolve around? Gambling, and/or getting over on someone. Why would anyone at that level jeopardize their future income by trying to help someone else? It's not a fair comparison.