Hey old schoolers! when playing with an LD shaft....

Impact Blue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm just curious: for those of you that have been in the game for so long, when all these LD shafts came out were you hitting inside english shots thick? Did you ever adjust to it? or even think it's a worthwhile investment to do so?

I have an incredible respect for those of you that have played through this sport when it was a cultural timestamp, if ever to feed your children, and all without our Accu-stats or Bob Byrne encyclopedias.

Did you move with technology?
or is it just another head trip to f@#$ with your brain?

(multiple questions, I guess.)
 
I was skeptical when Predator first came out. Not knowing much about the technology, I really didn't pay them much attention. I finally got to shoot with one back in 2004 and my first impression was that I was undercutting everything. I had to force myself to trust my aim and not adjust for cueball deflection. It took me a good couple of months to get used to it, but I made the switch and have been playing with a Predator shaft since then. I currently play with the Z shaft and I like it the best. I am looking forward to trying the new OB2.
If you are using a conventional shaft and use english, you must compensate for cueball defelction. You might not be consciously aware of it, but your subconscious is and it will make you adjust to avoid the pain associated with missing. These LD shafts do what they promise. More spin with minimal deflection. There are some people out there that still think the world is flat and we never went to the moon. I guess the other 99% of the human population is delusional, including myself. If you try it out, just give it a fair trial because it will take some getting used to. We are all creatures of habbit. Change can be a hard thing to accept, even if it is for the better.
 
I first tried a Predator shaft at their booth in Las Vegas in 1997. They loaned me a shaft that fit my cue (a McDermott I had made thru their "custom" shop). I went straight to the inside english w/ pace shots, and they made a believer out of me right away. I bought that shaft on the spot. Actually split time between it and the McD shafts for sometime after mainly because the joint rings weren't the same. Started playing w/ a Schon & 314's exclusively in 2000 & have stayed with the 5/16-14 piloted joint and LD shafts ever since. Just switched over to OB1 in the last 3 months on my main players (Olneys now) and like them a lot.
You'll hear lots of opinions, and everyone's is worth something, but there's no arguement about how many pro's are using LD shafts - and most of them have never been paid to do so.
 
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I had been fighting the changes for 30 years. It was always Viking with stock shaft and LePro tip. Break cue off the rack, no jump cue, and a piece of grinding wheel to rough the tip as needed.

I came back to pool after a long lay-off. In a little over two months I have a jumper, a break cue, brand new Viking with LePro tip, and all the shape tools, sanders, picks, and a lot of other things. I guess I'll try one of the new layerd tips, (probably a Sniper) and down the road I'm sure I'll bbbbuy a LD shaft. Ya see, your all making me as crazy as you all are. I just won't give in that I can't quite as good as I use to because I'm 67 yo. Johnny

PS: Even got me a glove. Maybe I can scare them into choking with all this new ammo.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
LD shafts are pool's greatest marketing success ever.

Tom, I totally agree with you and I can't place any blame upon them for finding a niche in the market and exploiting it to the fullest extent. However, in reality and by using common sense it becomes very clear that while a shaft is important, no shaft in the one stop answer that some my claim they are. In the end it all comes down to some ones personal ability, and for those who understand this, they will also understand that a good non-laminated shaft is as functional as any other.

But as a retailer, I love people who think that these shafts will change their game like majic, and will not listen to reason, because I will sell them all they want at twice the price that I would make off a normal shaft!!!!!!!!:thumbup:
 
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I'm 42, and started playing when I was 6 or 7. I played with old school cues until 2 years ago. These were Blacks, Black boars, Schon, Joss, Phillippe, Scruggs....etc. all the same build and specs......same great hit to all of them. I guess I play shortstop speed.

Last year after playing a guy that was using a Predator cue, and making very difficult shots look easy, I started exploring all kinds of cues and I picked a 314-2. Without a doubt the shaft makes aiming shots hit with spin SIMPLE. If players disagree with that comment.....they either don't know their game, or don't realize how LD can help their game.

Sure I played great with my old style cues, but I play more consistent now, and inside/outside spin shots are as easy as center ball.

I'm just glad there are so many players that think LD shafts are a joke. Makes them easier to beat!:D

G.
 
"PS: Even got me a glove. Maybe I can scare them into choking with all this new ammo."

True story...
In the local APA league years ago, there was a guy that had a black glove he played with, and changed to a white glove to break!
Was very impressive...
 
Big C said:
I was skeptical when Predator first came out. Not knowing much about the technology, I really didn't pay them much attention. I finally got to shoot with one back in 2004 and my first impression was that I was undercutting everything. I had to force myself to trust my aim and not adjust for cueball deflection. It took me a good couple of months to get used to it, but I made the switch and have been playing with a Predator shaft since then. I currently play with the Z shaft and I like it the best. I am looking forward to trying the new OB2.
If you are using a conventional shaft and use english, you must compensate for cueball defelction. You might not be consciously aware of it, but your subconscious is and it will make you adjust to avoid the pain associated with missing. These LD shafts do what they promise. More spin with minimal deflection. There are some people out there that still think the world is flat and we never went to the moon. I guess the other 99% of the human population is delusional, including myself. If you try it out, just give it a fair trial because it will take some getting used to. We are all creatures of habbit. Change can be a hard thing to accept, even if it is for the better.

Sorry to bust your bubble on this, but all shafts will squirt the cue ball off the straight line when shot hard enough with english. Besides the squirt, contention will need to be made for swerve, which can be severe depending on the shot. And good ole throw is always present to muck things up even more.

Predator or OB-1 and other similar shafts definitely do reduce cue ball squirt compared to many other shafts, and there are other ways to reduce squirt that do not involved the techniques Pred and 0B and others used, but they all squirt the cue ball to some degree.

When I hear people say they don't require any adjustment for english I know I'm either listening to someone who doesn't know any better or to a genuine huckster. In either case, the bad advice is still just that: bad advice and bad information. At times it's misinformation, at others it disinformation.

Flex
 
When I hear people say they don't require any adjustment for english I know I'm either listening to someone who doesn't know any better or to a genuine huckster. In either case, the bad advice is still just that: bad advice and bad information. At times it's misinformation, at others it disinformation.

Flex

whilst what you're saying is indubitably technically true, there is some truth in the 'no compensation required' theory. if you're aiming for the centre of the pocket, i think usually because the minimal squirt produced by the likes of the OB-1 and predator shafts, the ball will not squirt off quite enough to stop the ball going into the pocket. For the majority of shots anyway.
 
Flex said:
Sorry to bust your bubble on this, but all shafts will squirt the cue ball off the straight line when shot hard enough with english. Besides the squirt, contention will need to be made for swerve, which can be severe depending on the shot. And good ole throw is always present to muck things up even more.

Predator or OB-1 and other similar shafts definitely do reduce cue ball squirt compared to many other shafts, and there are other ways to reduce squirt that do not involved the techniques Pred and 0B and others used, but they all squirt the cue ball to some degree.

When I hear people say they don't require any adjustment for english I know I'm either listening to someone who doesn't know any better or to a genuine huckster. In either case, the bad advice is still just that: bad advice and bad information. At times it's misinformation, at others it disinformation.

Flex
To be fair, they are marketed as Low deflection, not NO deflection. After years of playing with Ivory ferrules and missing due to bad adjustments on balls hit with english, now most of my cues have some form of an LD shaft. Now, here's the deal. The reason the Predator is so popular is very simple. Its a good hitting shaft! No, it doesn't make you better. But it does hit very consistently. The point that some are trying to make is that you can get used to playing with any shaft. Without a doubt, that is true. And the difference isn't that much. But still, I've got enough cash to buy any cue in the world. My Lucasi with a matched 314 ring shaft (total about $250) hits as good as, if not better than my old Joss West, Mottey or my current Blue Grass, etc.

Put it where it is. These guys came up with a way to make good shafts out of crappy wood. If they make a profit at it, who am I to complain. What ? I want them to go out of business so I can buy a shaft with 3 growth rings/inch that has been bleached to death for a $50 less ?

tim
 
Impact Blue said:
I'm just curious: for those of you that have been in the game for so long, when all these LD shafts came out were you hitting inside english shots thick? Did you ever adjust to it? or even think it's a worthwhile investment to do so?

I have an incredible respect for those of you that have played through this sport when it was a cultural timestamp, if ever to feed your children, and all without our Accu-stats or Bob Byrne encyclopedias.

Did you move with technology?
or is it just another head trip to f@#$ with your brain?

(multiple questions, I guess.)
The inside english shots seem the same with both types of shafts. I'd guess it's about where I aim. The outside english collision shots are a little different for me. LD shafts are a little better for no finess shots. The more flexable shafts are better for ducking kisses and such. I use the regular shaft as I only play one pocket.
 
True Skill is in the deflection

To answer your question, I think shots hit with sidespin are going to take some time to adjust. You might try stroking the ball quite firmly from different angles and with different english over and over for one day and figure out how much you need to adjust. When I got my 314-2 shaft, I adjusted after a week. After a while, I noticed that I was able to deliver down the line with more certainty. I was able to poke my stick at whatever point I wanted and the ball would just go in. I thought that this was my holy grail. Then, I realized that there was something missing and I couldn't figure it out until Buddy Hall introduced me to custom cues. That was a scary day, cause I have been blazing down that trail in search of my 'holy grail cue' ever since.

There is a similar idea about skill and ball manipulation in golf. There are regular flex, stiff shafts and there are xtra stiff shafts. There are muscle back and cavity back heads. You will see that golfers (like tour pros) with the most correct and pure swings can manufacture enough velocity to travel through the ball and hit the club head in the sweet spot with extra stiff shafts with a muscle back or blade style club head on it. With blades, you must also be more accurate than with cavity back clubs, if you don't, you'll get nothing but a clanking vibration that travels up your arms and sends you home wanting to quit. Weekend golfers who most likely won't put the practice in are the ones you see using all the latest technology including special torque shafts (fat shafts), and multi-kick pointed shafts and multi-adjustment weighting system on the club head like you see in the Taylor Made R series Drivers. Also, there are those who can't hit the ball unless they use cavity back clubs, and then, even on to those who use over sized clubs ie Callaway's versions. There is the inevitable aid of technology that helps a player 'get there'.

Anyone who is a true player with a true swing will more than enjoy playing with any Mizuno MP muscle back because they provide a buttery soft feel that can't be reproduced with a cavity back and lets you manipulate the ball better strictly because of the 'natural construction' of the club head. Here's the main point >>>>>>>>That's only when the ball is struck correctly with precision and skill. It's is simply made from a forged piece of steel, not hollowed out in the back so you can be forgiven for your misses. With blades, you can fade the ball better, draw the ball better, and do more with your ball because the club head is not manipulated by the maker, that's where the true beauty of the game comes into play, is when the player ultimately learns how to manipulate the ball at his command. I think that's how a pool player should play, or learn how to play, with a good, custom cue.

I believe that low squirt shafts are all shafts that take the feel out of the game from a 'feedback' point of view. For me, I get my enjoyment from 'feeling' my cue through the shot, not muscling it through, or demanding that it do something. I play on triple shimmed tables everyday and have no problem running out using my custom-made shafts made by Eddie Farris or Pete Petree. These are cues that when made properly, you don't need to get laminated shafts. The entire cue for that matter is solid and will therefore play well. If the butt is made like crap, the shaft will hit like crap too.

I think the laminated shaft is a perfect alternative to any production cue shaft, maybe that's why there's such a big market for them? Maybe it's because the shaft maker can use crap wood and assemble a useful product out of it. When it comes to my custom made cues, I want a custom made shaft made to echo with feedback and resonate confirmation of the shot I just hit. That's pool.

When it comes to laminated shafts, are they more consistent? Yes. Do they help a person make the ball more often especially when using english? Yes. It simply commands what demand it to do. Here's the final question>>> Do I play better with a LD shaft? Yes. I am more guaranteed to make the ball on an extreme english shot. If you say left, it goes left. If you say right, it goes right. However, that's not pool. Pool is played with a manipulation of the balls and equipment.

"That's the trick is in the fine adjustment in your stroke and knowing how to estimate what the cueball will do in relation to how you hit it. Some call it luck, I call it true skill. The same is evident in the way a master uses his sword, or an artist his tools, or even a driver racing his car when getting sideways on the track. Skill is in the ability to manipulate your medium at your will."

When I play with a low deflection shaft, I get very little or no feel. It's like hitting with a block of iron. The next thing we know, we're going to be using a made for pool rifle scope to aim with too!

"I am in no way tearing down or bashing anyone's product including OB Cues or Predator, Tiger shafts, Mezz WD700 (which my top pick would be), Universal Smart Shaft, or even Sharp Shooter shafts."

Everyone has their opinion, and I think experienced players will agree with me. There is a point at which there can be too much stiffness. That is where I backed off and went back to normal playing shafts. As a player, you should be able to get the job done without the assistance of a LD shaft. There's more honor in that.

Going back to golf, I'll compare the two illuminating my viewpoint. In golf, it started with solid, muscle back-type clubs. Either you knew how to play, and could hit the ball, or not. Nowadays, especially with the less skilled, you see people using assistance from technology via cavity backed clubs making the sweet spot larger and allowing for more room for error. That is the same thing I see with low deflection shafts. They do create the less skilled player to get away with more error, and I think that is not the right way to play. I believe that for me, and a offsetting number of people, a true custom made shaft made properly will not only deflect properly, but will feel good as well.

Any good player with high skill and enough knowledge who knows their equipment, and knows how to play will agree that deflection is part of mastery and is fun to use on occasion. Too much of it is is not good, but for me, and a good amount of the top, top players I know, normal, custom made shafts made to hit with feedback are made correctly, and have the PROPER amount of deflection necessary to get the job done. I think that those who stroke the ball harder need a LD shaft more than those who finesse the ball.

People like Buddy, or Efren don't use LD shafts, because they understand how to play and don't need technology to help them. Efren even uses Elkmaster tips cause he wants to 'feel' his shot.
 
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Impact Blue said:
I'm just curious: for those of you that have been in the game for so long, when all these LD shafts came out were you hitting inside english shots thick?

With the LD shot? Yes. But, if you use an aim & pivot type of system for inside english, you'll see pretty much immediately what won't work and what will work with low squirt cues.


Did you ever adjust to it?
Yes.

or even think it's a worthwhile investment to do so?
For some, it's a worthwhile investment. For others, it isn't. I tried a low squirt cue for a year and a half before going back to a normal cue. The difference that wreaks havoc on my game is the dominant swerve on slow spin shots on low squirt cues. Because of my decades of playing with a regular cue, it was never natural to adjust to the swerve dominant shots using a low squirt cue. That's just me. YMMV.

When I'm not in stroke, I use a low squirt cue. When I'm in stroke, I switch to a regular cue. My personal experience is that when I'm playing poorly, a low squirt cue can help me. When I'm playing well, a low squirt cue doesn't get me my best game; a regular cue can because that's what I'm tuned to in terms of speed control and squirt/swerve blending. Again, YMMV.

Fred <~~~ doesn't want to argue about personal experience
 
deadgearplyr

So if we're playing straight up, $1000 a hole at Pebble Beach, are you going to use the MP's or the Calloway's?

On to pool, you readily admit that you shoot better with the LD shaft. We're playing $10,000 sets, or we're playing for the US open title, or whatever else that will get your blood pumping that you absolutely want to win. What shaft are you going to use? You know if you miss I'm going to put a 5 pack on you for sure if not more. What shaft are you going to pull out? I'll be using a 314-2, but since that's not pool, will you be using that custom shaft that you don't shoot as well with when you need your absolute best to beat me?

Not picking on you, just want to get your perspective on this. :wink:

deadgearplyr said:
To answer your question, I think shots hit with sidespin are going to take some time to adjust. You might try stroking the ball quite firmly from different angles and with different english over and over for one day and figure out how much you need to adjust. When I got my 314-2 shaft, I adjusted after a week. After a while, I noticed that I was able to deliver down the line with more certainty. I was able to poke my stick at whatever point I wanted and the ball would just go in. I thought that this was my holy grail. Then, I realized that there was something missing and I couldn't figure it out until Buddy Hall introduced me to custom cues. That was a scary day, cause I have been blazing down that trail in search of my 'holy grail cue' ever since.

There is a similar idea about skill and ball manipulation in golf. There are regular flex, stiff shafts and there are xtra stiff shafts. There are muscle back and cavity back heads. You will see that golfers (like tour pros) with the most correct and pure swings can manufacture enough velocity to travel through the ball and hit the club head in the sweet spot with extra stiff shafts with a muscle back or blade style club head on it. With blades, you must also be more accurate than with cavity back clubs, if you don't, you'll get nothing but a clanking vibration that travels up your arms and sends you home wanting to quit. Weekend golfers who most likely won't put the practice in are the ones you see using all the latest technology including special torque shafts (fat shafts), and multi-kick pointed shafts and multi-adjustment weighting system on the club head like you see in the Taylor Made R series Drivers. Also, there are those who can't hit the ball unless they use cavity back clubs, and then, even on to those who use over sized clubs ie Callaway's versions. There is the inevitable aid of technology that helps a player 'get there'.

Anyone who is a true player with a true swing will more than enjoy playing with any Mizuno MP muscle back because they provide a buttery soft feel that can't be reproduced with a cavity back and lets you manipulate the ball better strictly because of the 'natural construction' of the club head. Here's the main point >>>>>>>>That's only when the ball is struck correctly with precision and skill. It's is simply made from a forged piece of steel, not hollowed out in the back so you can be forgiven for your misses. With blades, you can fade the ball better, draw the ball better, and do more with your ball because the club head is not manipulated by the maker, that's where the true beauty of the game comes into play, is when the player ultimately learns how to manipulate the ball at his command. I think that's how a pool player should play, or learn how to play, with a good, custom cue.

I believe that low squirt shafts are all shafts that take the feel out of the game from a 'feedback' point of view. For me, I get my enjoyment from 'feeling' my cue through the shot, not muscling it through, or demanding that it do something. I play on triple shimmed tables everyday and have no problem running out using my custom-made shafts made by Eddie Farris or Pete Petree. These are cues that when made properly, you don't need to get laminated shafts. The entire cue for that matter is solid and will therefore play well. If the butt is made like crap, the shaft will hit like crap too.

I think the laminated shaft is a perfect alternative to any production cue shaft, maybe that's why there's such a big market for them? Maybe it's because the shaft maker can use crap wood and assemble a useful product out of it. When it comes to my custom made cues, I want a custom made shaft made to echo with feedback and resonate confirmation of the shot I just hit. That's pool.

When it comes to laminated shafts, are they more consistent? Yes. Do they help a person make the ball more often especially when using english? Yes. It simply commands what demand it to do. Here's the final question>>> Do I play better with a LD shaft? Yes. I am more guaranteed to make the ball on an extreme english shot. If you say left, it goes left. If you say right, it goes right. However, that's not pool. Pool is played with a manipulation of the balls and equipment.

"That's the trick is in the fine adjustment in your stroke and knowing how to estimate what the cueball will do in relation to how you hit it. Some call it luck, I call it true skill. The same is evident in the way a master uses his sword, or an artist his tools, or even a driver racing his car when getting sideways on the track. Skill is in the ability to manipulate your medium at your will."

When I play with a low deflection shaft, I get very little or no feel. It's like hitting with a block of iron. The next thing we know, we're going to be using a made for pool rifle scope to aim with too!

"I am in no way tearing down or bashing anyone's product including OB Cues or Predator, Tiger shafts, Mezz WD700 (which my top pick would be), Universal Smart Shaft, or even Sharp Shooter shafts."

Everyone has their opinion, and I think experienced players will agree with me. There is a point at which there can be too much stiffness. That is where I backed off and went back to normal playing shafts. As a player, you should be able to get the job done without the assistance of a LD shaft. There's more honor in that.

Going back to golf, I'll compare the two illuminating my viewpoint. In golf, it started with solid, muscle back-type clubs. Either you knew how to play, and could hit the ball, or not. Nowadays, especially with the less skilled, you see people using assistance from technology via cavity backed clubs making the sweet spot larger and allowing for more room for error. That is the same thing I see with low deflection shafts. They do create the less skilled player to get away with more error, and I think that is not the right way to play. I believe that for me, and a offsetting number of people, a true custom made shaft made properly will not only deflect properly, but will feel good as well.

Any good player with high skill and enough knowledge who knows their equipment, and knows how to play will agree that deflection is part of mastery and is fun to use on occasion. Too much of it is is not good, but for me, and a good amount of the top, top players I know, normal, custom made shafts made to hit with feedback are made correctly, and have the PROPER amount of deflection necessary to get the job done. I think that those who stroke the ball harder need a LD shaft more than those who finesse the ball.

People like Buddy, or Efren don't use LD shafts, because they understand how to play and don't need technology to help them. Efren even uses Elkmaster tips cause he wants his 'feel' his shot.
 
I've shot with Schmelke, cuetec, mcdermott, joss, predator and now a schon, in that order. The switch from my predator to my schon was pretty easy. My schon shaft doesn't deflect bad, just not the same as the predators. I now have a 314-2 and a Z-2. i've owned the pre-cat 314, 314, and OB-1 also. I can switch back and forth between the Schon and 314-2 with no problems. The Z-2 is a small adjustment, but I can do this within a few racks. I'll shoot league and cheap sets with the Schon shaft, but if it's high dollar action or a tournament I'll play with one of the predators, just because that is what I'm most confident with and also I know there isn't a shot that will come up that I don't know how to play with it. That's just me.
 
Cornerman said:
The difference that wreaks havoc on my game is the dominant swerve on slow spin shots on low squirt cues. Because of my decades of playing with a regular cue, it was never natural to adjust to the swerve dominant shots using a low squirt cue. Fred <~~~ doesn't want to argue about personal experience

I agree 100%

I like everything about the LD shafts except the extreme swerve. Very hard to adjust to IMO.
 
worriedbeef said:
whilst what you're saying is indubitably technically true, there is some truth in the 'no compensation required' theory. if you're aiming for the centre of the pocket, i think usually because the minimal squirt produced by the likes of the OB-1 and predator shafts, the ball will not squirt off quite enough to stop the ball going into the pocket. For the majority of shots anyway.

Well, as someone who just about always shoots for the center/heart of the pocket, I can definitely assure you that those shafts squirt plenty... definitely enough to miss shots. Plus when you shoot with english, as I'm sure you know, there is a throw factor that needs to be figured in, plus the swerve of the cue ball on the cloth on the way to the object ball, which changes depending on the speed of the shot and the distance from the cue ball to the object ball.

The cue I shoot with has a pretty low squirt shaft on it... 11mm tip, yada yada, it's about the same as my OB-1. Believe me when I tell you that compensation is needed with any shaft. If you don't wish to believe me, then don't; it's your choice. I think it's better to know just how much a shaft squirts the cue ball and to try to quantify it in some way, as I do. Feel helps a lot, but it's necessary to actually know how much off the straight line the cue ball will track it you wish to be consistent.

Flex
 
radge69 said:
So if we're playing straight up, $1000 a hole at Pebble Beach, are you going to use the MP's or the Calloway's?

On to pool, you readily admit that you shoot better with the LD shaft. We're playing $10,000 sets, or we're playing for the US open title, or whatever else that will get your blood pumping that you absolutely want to win. What shaft are you going to use? You know if you miss I'm going to put a 5 pack on you for sure if not more. What shaft are you going to pull out? I'll be using a 314-2, but since that's not pool, will you be using that custom shaft that you don't shoot as well with when you need your absolute best to beat me?

Not picking on you, just want to get your perspective on this. :wink:

In golf, I play with MP-14's. I play those because I have the capability to use them and I pride myself in that. Moreover, I use them because I enjoy playing with them. If I was playing someone for money, I would not use anything but what I currently use.

In pool, my philosophy remains unchanged. I don't personally like my 314-2 as a player. I like my custom made shafts because I enjoy playing with them more. The 'feel' better to me. If you understood that I play better with the 314-2, it's that I meant that it is overall easier for me to do what I tell it to do regarding shots with english. In pool, you must be accurate. Really accurate. If you miss, you miss. Predator ain't gonna help that. I'm not saying I'm a great player, but I can play. I also know how to use deflection to my advantage. I can't do that with my 314-2. There just ain't enough options. I play better with the 314-2 in regards to me pocketing balls. That in itself is not the entire game of pool. Pool is much more than that. I could go into that, but it might take another thread, so I won't.

I think people should have some type of illumination when it comes to different viewpoints and how people feel about their equipment. I understand a large number of pros use predator and I understand why. I myself am not a pro, and probably never will be, but when I match up, I use my non-laminated shaft. If I had to play Buddy Hall, which I do regularly, I use my normal, custom cue shaft. Buddy Hall will also tell you the same thing. You need a certain amount of deflection to make certain things happen on a pool table.

I think some people are being mislead into the fact that they can just go buy a Predator or OB and their world will be round as long as they play with one. People who don't use a laminated shaft walk on a flat earth and are primitive seeking caveman methods. I think that's backwards. The bottom line if you have enough skill and confidence in what you're doing, you don't need the assistance of technology to win. You can do that on your own.
 
i tried one of those new style shafts today and i hit a few firm shots from a mid range and missed shot after shot.i find it hard to believe that they reduce the deflection at all or anywhere near as good as my deano.i am not selling so this is not advertisement.

i also prefer traditional blades on my golf clubs,because i think they are easier to hit.metal woods ,yes..cavity back no.

i have played both games for years and i believe all of the talk is hype.am i alone in this

dean
 
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