High rails

dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
I had a guy put new rails Artemis, along with 760 Simonis a few years ago.

I have a vip pro 8 Brunswick from 1965.

Recently I measured the height of the rails and they are at least 1.6" high.

I was reading in the wpa rules that the rail height is to be between 62 1/2% and 64 1/2% of the diameter of the ball or 1.40625" to 1.45125". Since the rail is higher, that slows the ball down bouncing off the rail, I suppose.

How hard would it be to get this fixed? and How would this happen in the first place. I don't really know how the rails are attached and how one raises and lowers them.

Thanks for any info you can give me.
 
dmgwalsh said:
I had a guy put new rails Artemis, along with 760 Simonis a few years ago.

I have a vip pro 8 Brunswick from 1965.

Recently I measured the height of the rails and they are at least 1.6" high.

I was reading in the wpa rules that the rail height is to be between 62 1/2% and 64 1/2% of the diameter of the ball or 1.40625" to 1.45125". Since the rail is higher, that slows the ball down bouncing off the rail, I suppose.

How hard would it be to get this fixed? and How would this happen in the first place. I don't really know how the rails are attached and how one raises and lowers them.

Thanks for any info you can give me.
Click to expand...
If the Artemis Pool 66 cushions were installed on your Brunswick rails, they're the wrong cushions. The nose of the cushions for 2 1/4" balls is suppose to be at 1 7/16" of an inch high for proper playing conditions.

Glen
 
A quick guess I would say wrong profile on the rubber even though you bought one of the best. If you feel on the bottom side of the rubber just before it meets the bed cloth you will feel a speedbump, were it transfers from rubber to wood subrail. It would feel like an 1\8" step if you feel this sounds like k66 profile rubber were almost all Brunswick tables take k55 profile rubber and is roughly an 1\8" larger then k66.

Most installers flush up the top of the rubber to the rail when installing them and dont pay attention to the gap or step on the bottom this would indicate wrong profile rubber. Some mechanics install the rubber flush on the bottom and shave or sand the excess off the top which would lead to high rubber also.

I would strip the cloth of and check to see what you have.

Your rails me not of had a relief rabbit cut in the rails were you staple the cloth down. If no relief then the cloth and staples would raise the edge of the rail up to make the rubber set higher.


Measure the thickness of your rails this would be a good starting point.

1. If the rail measures 1-3\4" thick it should take k55 profile rubber standard on Brunswick tables.

2. If it measures 1-1\2" thick it requires k66 profile rubber.

3 Ohlhousen uses thier version of a flat k66 profile called accufast.

4. Connolly uses k55 on a thin rail 1-1\2" or 1-5\8" thick rail with k55 and it makes the rubber to low and play super fast.

This type of repair most techs wont do because it's time consumming but it can be fixed.

Hope this helps.

Craig
 
I have a question to the table pros, and especially any of them that have worked closely with the manufacturers...

This problem of incorrect rail/cushion height seems to be recurring. And it seems to have two causes:

1. Improper type of cushion installed on the rail (k55 vs k66, vs XYZ brand)
2. Cushion installer incorrectly installing cusion on rail.

Why don't the manufacturers of the tables incorporate a system so that the installer can only install the rails at the correct height, and can only install the correct type of cushion? I have never seen a cross section of a rail/cushion assembly, but maybe something like a channel in the rail that accepts a mating protrusion of the cushion. This would automatically line up the cushion at the correct hight. And this orienting feature could be sized so you couldn't install the wrong type of cushion.

Now some of you might say the table mechanic should know what he is doing, etc. But in any industry, the design of the components is what determines how foolproof it is for the installer to assemble.

As an example I work on designing consumer goods that are ultimately assembled by the end user. We have a saying "there is always a better idiot". Meaning we have to do our absolute best to minimize the chance of a consumer installing something backwards, in the wrong place, upside down, breaking it, etc., because no matter how careful we are, a "better idiot" comes along and puts it together the wrong way.

Now in the case of the table cushions, these problems have been going on for years. This leads me to believe the root problem is with the design of the rail and cushion interface.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or perhaps a closeup pic of how the two are currently attached?
 
iusedtoberich said:
I have a question to the table pros, and especially any of them that have worked closely with the manufacturers...

This problem of incorrect rail/cushion height seems to be recurring. And it seems to have two causes:

1. Improper type of cushion installed on the rail (k55 vs k66, vs XYZ brand)
2. Cushion installer incorrectly installing cusion on rail.

Why don't the manufacturers of the tables incorporate a system so that the installer can only install the rails at the correct height, and can only install the correct type of cushion? I have never seen a cross section of a rail/cushion assembly, but maybe something like a channel in the rail that accepts a mating protrusion of the cushion. This would automatically line up the cushion at the correct hight. And this orienting feature could be sized so you couldn't install the wrong type of cushion.

Now some of you might say the table mechanic should know what he is doing, etc. But in any industry, the design of the components is what determines how foolproof it is for the installer to assemble.

As an example I work on designing consumer goods that are ultimately assembled by the end user. We have a saying "there is always a better idiot". Meaning we have to do our absolute best to minimize the chance of a consumer installing something backwards, in the wrong place, upside down, breaking it, etc., because no matter how careful we are, a "better idiot" comes along and puts it together the wrong way.

Now in the case of the table cushions, these problems have been going on for years. This leads me to believe the root problem is with the design of the rail and cushion interface.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or perhaps a closeup pic of how the two are currently attached?
Click to expand...

My question is why cant manufacturers get it right. I don't know how many times the manufacture will set the cushions at 1.5" and some of them even set them low. Manufacturers also seem to have a problem of not getting the angles right either. Or getting the facing to stick.

To answer your question, most mechanics end up teaching themselves and this take years to learn how to do something properly, there's no school for billiard mechanics. Secondly, the manufacturers are in china paying someone who doesn't care about pool ten cents an hour to build them. Their more concerned about making thousands of pool tables then about the next time the table need serviced.
 
This is one of several ways to build rails this is one of the easiest to build.

rail_cutout.gif
 
iusedtoberich said:
I have a question to the table pros, and especially any of them that have worked closely with the manufacturers...

This problem of incorrect rail/cushion height seems to be recurring. And it seems to have two causes:

1. Improper type of cushion installed on the rail (k55 vs k66, vs XYZ brand)
2. Cushion installer incorrectly installing cusion on rail.

Why don't the manufacturers of the tables incorporate a system so that the installer can only install the rails at the correct height, and can only install the correct type of cushion? I have never seen a cross section of a rail/cushion assembly, but maybe something like a channel in the rail that accepts a mating protrusion of the cushion. This would automatically line up the cushion at the correct hight. And this orienting feature could be sized so you couldn't install the wrong type of cushion.

Now some of you might say the table mechanic should know what he is doing, etc. But in any industry, the design of the components is what determines how foolproof it is for the installer to assemble.

As an example I work on designing consumer goods that are ultimately assembled by the end user. We have a saying "there is always a better idiot". Meaning we have to do our absolute best to minimize the chance of a consumer installing something backwards, in the wrong place, upside down, breaking it, etc., because no matter how careful we are, a "better idiot" comes along and puts it together the wrong way.

Now in the case of the table cushions, these problems have been going on for years. This leads me to believe the root problem is with the design of the rail and cushion interface.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or perhaps a closeup pic of how the two are currently attached?
Click to expand...
Big "O" Tire has solved this problem in the tire industry. They figured out that all tire rims are not made the exact same, so they first determine what the rims are, then mount the CORRECT tires on them:D

In other words, it's not the manufactures problem that a mechanic does not know which cushions go on which rails, that is the responsibility of the person calling themself a "mechanic" to get it right, and if they don't know, then ASK someone that does!!!!!:cool:

Glen
 
dmgwalsh said:
I had a guy put new rails Artemis, along with 760 Simonis a few years ago.

I have a vip pro 8 Brunswick from 1965.

Recently I measured the height of the rails and they are at least 1.6" high.

I was reading in the wpa rules that the rail height is to be between 62 1/2% and 64 1/2% of the diameter of the ball or 1.40625" to 1.45125". Since the rail is higher, that slows the ball down bouncing off the rail, I suppose.

How hard would it be to get this fixed? and How would this happen in the first place. I don't really know how the rails are attached and how one raises and lowers them.

Thanks for any info you can give me.
Click to expand...

The percentages are correct which result in a proper cushion nose height of 1 13/32 - 1 7/16.
If the cushion nose is too high it sucks the ball in and slows it down so you're not getting a proper rail bounce.

Sight unseen your cushions may be the wrong profile but more then likely they were installed incorrectly.
Based on your post I'd suggest you find a reputable dealer in Chicagoland and have the cushions replaced or possibly reapplied if they can be salvaged. You'll probably also need a new set of rail cloth.
 
Dartman said:
The percentages are correct which result in a proper cushion nose height of 1 13/32 - 1 7/16.
If the cushion nose is too high it sucks the ball in and slows it down so you're not getting a proper rail bounce.

Sight unseen your cushions may be the wrong profile but more then likely they were installed incorrectly.
Based on your post I'd suggest you find a reputable dealer in Chicagoland and have the cushions replaced or possibly reapplied if they can be salvaged. You'll probably also need a new set of rail cloth.
Click to expand...

i notice you are a Chicagoland person. My table is in Tinley Park. Care to take a look at it sometime and tell me what I need?
 
dmgwalsh said:
i notice you are a Chicagoland person. My table is in Tinley Park. Care to take a look at it sometime and tell me what I need?
Click to expand...

Rockford.
I'm rarely down your way but will keep it in mind.
My suggestion is to talk to whoever maintains the tables at IBC and see if they can take a look.
You might also try Jim Vondrak in Plainfield 815-483-6389
 
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PM sent..........



dmgwalsh said:
I had a guy put new rails Artemis, along with 760 Simonis a few years ago.

I have a vip pro 8 Brunswick from 1965.

Recently I measured the height of the rails and they are at least 1.6" high.

I was reading in the wpa rules that the rail height is to be between 62 1/2% and 64 1/2% of the diameter of the ball or 1.40625" to 1.45125". Since the rail is higher, that slows the ball down bouncing off the rail, I suppose.

How hard would it be to get this fixed? and How would this happen in the first place. I don't really know how the rails are attached and how one raises and lowers them.

Thanks for any info you can give me.
Click to expand...
 
table

IBC is barely running, as it is. Tinley Park is Chicago area. Give me a call and we can work something out.
Thanks, LCCS
815-742-7328
Ron
 
mistake

I ment RBC is barely running. You through me off when you said Rockford.
Thanks, Ron
 
I'll follow up when I get back in town. I'm in New Jersey for a week. Thanks for all the suggestions. Need to fix that table.
 
Hi,
I have a Brunswick Anniversary table which is in dire need of new cushions,how do I determine what would be the best brand to buy,I only want to do this once. I would like to avoid any height problems which seems to be an issue.

View attachment 75808
 
Last edited:
kingman33 said:
Hi,
I have a Brunswick Anniversary table which is in dire need of new cushions,how do I determine what would be the best brand to buy,I only want to do this once. I would like to avoid any height problems which seems to be an issue.

View attachment 75808
Click to expand...
Get the Artimus Intercontinental K55 cushions from Diamond, they fit your table perfect, have the correct cushion height, and you won't be replacing them any time soon...;)

Glen
 
Wrong rails

It turns out the K66 were installed. On my home table and on all the Brunswick Anniversaries at the Illinois Billiard Club.

Would it be difficult to bring them down to the right height?
 
n10spool said:
A quick guess I would say wrong profile on the rubber even though you bought one of the best. If you feel on the bottom side of the rubber just before it meets the bed cloth you will feel a speedbump, were it transfers from rubber to wood subrail. It would feel like an 1\8" step if you feel this sounds like k66 profile rubber were almost all Brunswick tables take k55 profile rubber and is roughly an 1\8" larger then k66.

Most installers flush up the top of the rubber to the rail when installing them and dont pay attention to the gap or step on the bottom this would indicate wrong profile rubber. Some mechanics install the rubber flush on the bottom and shave or sand the excess off the top which would lead to high rubber also.
I would strip the cloth of and check to see what you have.

Your rails me not of had a relief rabbit cut in the rails were you staple the cloth down. If no relief then the cloth and staples would raise the edge of the rail up to make the rubber set higher.


Measure the thickness of your rails this would be a good starting point.

1. If the rail measures 1-3\4" thick it should take k55 profile rubber standard on Brunswick tables.

2. If it measures 1-1\2" thick it requires k66 profile rubber.

3 Ohlhousen uses thier version of a flat k66 profile called accufast.

4. Connolly uses k55 on a thin rail 1-1\2" or 1-5\8" thick rail with k55 and it makes the rubber to low and play super fast.

This type of repair most techs wont do because it's time consumming but it can be fixed.

Hope this helps.

Craig
Click to expand...


bringing an old thread back to life....I have been reading through the posts in this forum and came accross this one and it really caught my interest.

I have a GCII that I had re-cushioned and re-covered in 860..The cushions were Artemus and I am farily certain they were K66...I pre-ordered them myself online..The TM picked up the rails and cushions took them back to his shop and returned a day or two later with them done.

I can't remember what I order for sure but I do think it was the K66....At the time I asked what the faster rails would be and was told K66.

Anyway...The cushions have not changed in the way they play from the first day of install, but I did notice that 1 rail has a noticable amount of extra spring.....(like a normal rail should play...no hop but a nice clean smooth rebound not too fast not too slow... no major loss of speed...no "pinching"

All other 5 rails have a bit different rebound and a farily noticable loss of speed on the CB...(compaired to the 1 faster rail)

No rails cause any hopping and they appear to measure out at the same height...The 1 rail that does play correctly seems to have a little bit tighter cloth wrap than the other rails...The other rails cloth almost feels a bit loose (IMO)

After reading the above reply and (of course) ran around the table to check for a "step" on the bottom part of the rail....To my surprise the only one that has a "step" is the one that plays correctly......(go figure)...All other feel like they match up farily smooth at the top and bottom.

What I have noticed is that the one rail that does play correctly has a little bit steeper downard taper on the top side...All others seem to come of the rail at a bit more upright (flatter) angle...Hard to see unless you really get down and look...Or run your hand accross one and another at the same time......Yet when measured the nose height (from the bed to the tip) is the same all the way around the table.

Dumb question....Is it possible that a cushion could be installed upside down?

I am also curious about the relief rabbit comment...Is it possible that one rail was done different from the other 5 and cause the others to be sitting up higher...(creating a different top angle)

Very interested as I would love to keep the same rubber and make the 5 slow rails play like the 1 faster rail.....If possible

Problem is I don't have another $700 to blow right now on a re-cushion and re-cover... ..The cloth could be re-done, but the cushions are less than 4 years old...I have been in pool rooms with cushions MUCH older than 4 years old that play way better than mine........LOL

Getting tired of the mud rails......
 
BRKNRUN said:
bringing an old thread back to life....I have been reading through the posts in this forum and came accross this one and it really caught my interest.

I have a GCII that I had re-cushioned and re-covered in 860..The cushions were Artemus and I am farily certain they were K66...I pre-ordered them myself online..The TM picked up the rails and cushions took them back to his shop and returned a day or two later with them done.

I can't remember what I order for sure but I do think it was the K66....At the time I asked what the faster rails would be and was told K66.

Anyway...The cushions have not changed in the way they play from the first day of install, but I did notice that 1 rail has a noticable amount of extra spring.....(like a normal rail should play...no hop but a nice clean smooth rebound not too fast not too slow... no major loss of speed...no "pinching"

All other 5 rails have a bit different rebound and a farily noticable loss of speed on the CB...(compaired to the 1 faster rail)

No rails cause any hopping and they appear to measure out at the same height...The 1 rail that does play correctly seems to have a little bit tighter cloth wrap than the other rails...The other rails cloth almost feels a bit loose (IMO)

After reading the above reply and (of course) ran around the table to check for a "step" on the bottom part of the rail....To my surprise the only one that has a "step" is the one that plays correctly......(go figure)...All other feel like they match up farily smooth at the top and bottom.

What I have noticed is that the one rail that does play correctly has a little bit steeper downard taper on the top side...All others seem to come of the rail at a bit more upright (flatter) angle...Hard to see unless you really get down and look...Or run your hand accross one and another at the same time......Yet when measured the nose height (from the bed to the tip) is the same all the way around the table.

Dumb question....Is it possible that a cushion could be installed upside down?

I am also curious about the relief rabbit comment...Is it possible that one rail was done different from the other 5 and cause the others to be sitting up higher...(creating a different top angle)

Very interested as I would love to keep the same rubber and make the 5 slow rails play like the 1 faster rail.....If possible

Problem is I don't have another $700 to blow right now on a re-cushion and re-cover... ..The cloth could be re-done, but the cushions are less than 4 years old...I have been in pool rooms with cushions MUCH older than 4 years old that play way better than mine........LOL

Getting tired of the mud rails......
Click to expand...
Do me a favor, measure the width of the playing surface from side to side, let me know what that is, then measure from the point of the cushion back to the finish of the top rail where the edge of the cloth starts, let me know what that is.

Glen
 
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