Highest Fargo rating out there I found was 940

The issue was with the comment about the system "being even more silly". Which implies he thinks the Fargo rating is silly.

From all the stats I have seen on matches when they compared Fargo ratings, the end results were dead on in many cases. I do not like ratings that many tours do because they are often not correct (I see many C players that should be Bs and B- or B players that are closer to B+ or A for example), but I have not seen someone with a Fargo rating that was much over or under what they really play like.

Okay, I forgot about the "Robustness" part of the system. I do not understand why the system gives a player a Fargo rating at all before they have a certain amount Robustness, or before that player has an Established rating. I also think that there are probably many players out there who may have an Established Fargo rating (with a high Robustness) that might destroy a much higher rated player who is also Established with a high Robustness. I might be sounding like an idiot, but I will take that chance. As many have said, players from one area of the country (or world) are much different (in skill level) then players from a different area. They may have done very well in only their own region or area in order to get their high Fargo rating (with a good Robustness). A player from a different area may have the same rating (with a good Robustness), or maybe even not as strong of a rating, may destroy the other player with the same or higher Established rating. Does this make any sense? That is okay if I look like a fool, with the thoughts that I post. Most people already think that about me anyways, lol.
 
Yes, a person has a Fargo Rating only with a minimum of 200 games in the system. When this happens the word "established" appears along with the displayed number.

Hi Mike, thanks for your reply, and thanks for being nice and professional in your reply. I am sorry. I should not state opinions about a system that I do not fully understand. I wonder, why not just tell the system to wait until the player gets a minimum of 200 games in the system before giving that player a Fargo rating? Would that not make the rating system a little less confusing?
 
Last edited:
I never said that it shouldn't be used for tourney entries, in fact, I think it is a fine way to limit tourneys to certain skill levels. I just don't think that a rating based on very few games should be used.

Mr. Page stated that 'established' happens after 200 games. Likely a good number if there is enough crossover with people/skill levels/areas in those 200 games.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. You made a great point with the statement " if there is enough crossover with people/skill levels/areas in those 200 games". That is why I was thinking that it may not be the best rating system for matching up 2 players from 2 completely different regions of the country.
 
Well Justin was sort of right but he doesn't know enough about the system to know about robustness and starter ratings and such. So his contribution did little to clarify the situation.

What is the point of having a Starter rating? Why not get rid of the Starter ratings, and only give a player a rating after a certain amount of games played? It just confuses people like me (and maybe the OP), lol.
 
Chang Fu likely listed in in the Fargo system because that is the name listed into two matches that were entered in the Fargo System. There may be more match outcomes for this player name, but not yet entered or cross-referenced in the system.

Bob Jewett and Mike Page previously commented on the difference between a starter rating and established rating after 200 games and advised it's better to ignore the ratings of people who have very few matches in the system.

Okay, so instead of confusing people (like me and maybe the OP), why does the system allow a player to have a rating after just 2 games in the Fargo Rate system? I understand the "Robustness" part now. It was just confusing to me.
 
Well Justin was sort of right but he doesn't know enough about the system to know about robustness and starter ratings and such. So his contribution did little to clarify the situation.



It may have done something to clarify the situation *for him*. Not sure if we care about that sort of thing around here. The guy said what he thought...which is the primary point of a forum. I think a better approach than telling him to keep his opinions to himself may have been to educate and/or enlighten him.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Confused people shouldn't state opinions but instead ask pointed questions. Or even better read up on the system. Fargo Rate is the best thing to happen to pool in years and I'm not confused about that!
 
Okay, so instead of confusing people (like me and maybe the OP), why does the system allow a player to have a rating after just 2 games in the Fargo Rate system? I understand the "Robustness" part now. It was just confusing to me.

I will try to put it in simple terms. FargoRate calculates a rating for everybody in the FargoRate database regardless of how many games you have in the system (database). You can be in the database with only one game (if the match was only one game), or you can be in there with thousands of games, but a large number of people in the database started with one match. As FargoRate becomes aware of more of your qualifying matches, they get added to the database and your number of games in the database goes up from there. Your number of games in the system is called your "robustness".

On the FargoRate site, and on this site many times, Mike Page has explained that a FargoRate rating is not considered to be fairly accurate until you have 200 games in the system, which he has termed an "established" rating. Before then there just isn't enough information from your play to make a real accurate assessment. Of course the fewer the games you have in the system, the less accurate it is, and the closer you get to having 200 games, the more accurate it is. In fact, it keeps getting more accurate over time, even past 200 games, but 200 is considered to be already pretty accurate, however 20 games, or only 2 games, would be considered extremely unreliable, while 190 is just about reliable now.

It is not much different than if you see a match (or hear the results of a match) from a player that is new to you, you can kind of start to tell something about their skills, but not accurately yet from just one match because maybe they had a bad match that day, or maybe they shot way over their head that day, or their opponent had an off day, etc. But after you have seen that person play many matches, they are no longer new to you and you have a lot of data with which to formulate your opinion about their actual skill level based on lots of matches. Except FargoRate isn't using opinion and subjective judgment like you would be, it is using only actual results from actual matches (not just who won, but by what scores) to remove all subjectivity and then comparing everybody against everybody else in what is called "global optimization".

Now Mike Page (the inventor of FargoRate) could turn off or hide the ratings for people until they reach 200 games, but why would he? Anybody with half a brain can see that if you only have 2 games in the system your rating isn't reliable yet. Also Mike has been clear on his site as well as on the forums that a rating is not to be considered as being fairly reliable until a person has 200 games in the system, and the further you are from having 200 games in the system yet, the more inaccurate it is likely to be. There are some benefits and uses for being able to see the ratings on someone before they reach 200 games in the system so he allows them to be seen knowing that everyone (who has half a brain or that bothered to visit the site to check how it worked) would know that they aren't completely reliable until he has enough match information (200 games) to make them pretty reliable.

And to address those screaming "everybody can give their opinion whenever they want blah blah"... There is nothing wrong with having or giving your opinion except when you know little or nothing about what you are giving the opinion on (in which case you are an idiot), or when your opinion is just flat wrong because it conflicts with provable fact (in which case you are stupid).
 
You made a great point with the statement " if there is enough crossover with people/skill levels/areas in those 200 games". That is why I was thinking that it may not be the best rating system for matching up 2 players from 2 completely different regions of the country.

There is plenty enough "crossover" or coupling for it to accurately compare people from different parts of the country or even different parts of the world. It has been proven repeatedly. You can watch this video for more info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBDcfCKhJrY

I also suggest that people learn a bit about FargoRate by reading the faq's and watching the videos at the following links so you don't end up having uninformed opinions or end up making ignorant statements:
http://fargorate.com/#faq
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fargorate
 
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. You made a great point with the statement " if there is enough crossover with people/skill levels/areas in those 200 games". That is why I was thinking that it may not be the best rating system for matching up 2 players from 2 completely different regions of the country.


Justin -- On the contrary, this is what we are good at. Below, for example, are connections between two people who have both replied to this thread who are from different sides of the country and likely have not met. Each individual connection is weak, but collectively they are not so weak.

Also you are right we are less likely to confuse people if we gave less information. But that is not the only consideration. In general more information is better but it is also harder to decipher. We try to strike a balance.

Here is an example about preliminary ratings. As you likely know, you are rated by how you do against opponents OF KNOWN RATING. And if you have fewer than 200 games, your rating is preliminary. So suppose we have a new player, Henry, who just moved to the USA from New Zealand. Henry then plays 60 games all against Shane Van Boening, and he wins 30, half. Henry's displayed but preliminary rating would be 820--same as Shane. Think about it. What do we really know about Henry? Does he play as strong as Shane? Probably not. But it is also not fair to say we know nothing about how Henry plays. In fact, there's a pretty good chance when things shake out Henry will be at solid Pro level. So we display it with the word "preliminary."

Similarly, if somebody wins 30 out of 60 games against low-level league players, that also tells us something as well. We would display a low-level-league number and attach the word "preliminary."
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2017-06-17 at 12.29.34 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2017-06-17 at 12.29.34 AM.png
    98.6 KB · Views: 438
Fargo? - Pool?

What I want to know is......

What does a Coen Brothers Movie have to do with pool?:scratchhead:
 
There is plenty enough "crossover" or coupling for it to accurately compare people from different parts of the country or even different parts of the world. It has been proven repeatedly. You can watch this video for more info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBDcfCKhJrY

I also suggest that people learn a bit about FargoRate by reading the faq's and watching the videos at the following links so you don't end up having uninformed opinions or end up making ignorant statements:
http://fargorate.com/#faq
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fargorate

I would say it's proven to be better than anything else , but I wouldn't hang my hat on it as a gambling tool until it reads like a racing form and you can see where and when the numbers are acquired ,, I will say watching Wu play his doubles match it's pretty easy to see why he's rated number 1

1
 
Justin -- On the contrary, this is what we are good at. Below, for example, are connections between two people who have both replied to this thread who are from different sides of the country and likely have not met. Each individual connection is weak, but collectively they are not so weak.

Also you are right we are less likely to confuse people if we gave less information. But that is not the only consideration. In general more information is better but it is also harder to decipher. We try to strike a balance.

Here is an example about preliminary ratings. As you likely know, you are rated by how you do against opponents OF KNOWN RATING. And if you have fewer than 200 games, your rating is preliminary. So suppose we have a new player, Henry, who just moved to the USA from New Zealand. Henry then plays 60 games all against Shane Van Boening, and he wins 30, half. Henry's displayed but preliminary rating would be 820--same as Shane. Think about it. What do we really know about Henry? Does he play as strong as Shane? Probably not. But it is also not fair to say we know nothing about how Henry plays. In fact, there's a pretty good chance when things shake out Henry will be at solid Pro level. So we display it with the word "preliminary."

Similarly, if somebody wins 30 out of 60 games against low-level league players, that also tells us something as well. We would display a low-level-league number and attach the word "preliminary."

Interesting...I actually remember many of those names haha. I don't think I have met Greg Cantrell, although we may have spoken before.

Cool stuff!

KMRUNOUT
 
Interesting...I actually remember many of those names haha. I don't think I have met Greg Cantrell, although we may have spoken before.

Cool stuff!

KMRUNOUT
There is a better chance you have spoken with my wife.:thumbup:
In the pool world I am known as Jackie's husband.;)
 
Back
Top