So a better question: Who *do* you think will make it out of the groupings?
Cornerman said:
Hohmann??
- Thread starter Cornerman
- Start date
Hey Fred, our opinions are actually very similar. Two months back, I started a Who will Prevail/Fail in 8ball thread, and I basically hypothesized that both Hohmann and Gabe Owen won't be making much of a splash in the IPT tour, along with Strickland. I subsequently got flamed for my choices. It's nice to know that someone out there happens to agree with me regarding Hohmann and Owen. Question is, do you agree with my Strickland choice?Cornerman said:
StevenPWaldon said:
I already answered. And, again, I have absolutely nothing against Hohmann. Nothing. Maybe I'm not making myself clear again. But, as I've said, there's been a few posts here and there that suggests that he should be considered elite, and even an automatic to get out of his grouping. I think there have been a handful of posts that have correctly asserted that his grouping is one of the toughest. Therefore, IMO, he's not a lock to get out of his grouping.
Fred
I'm not covering my ass at all. I do think he's a great player. But, I don't consider him elite. There have been a couple of posts here and there that suggest that others consider him elite, and I'm asking what has happened that would suggest this. So far, I've seen nothing. I've seen great things, but nothing that makes him a lock at anything. There's too much talent, and too many other players that have as good if not better resumés.StevenPWaldon said:
I am not saying he will crumble, nor am I saying he's a bad player. He's a damned good player. But look at the field. What makes anyone think he's any better than any other player? That's what I'm asking, and still asking.
This is a fine resumé, but again, I don't see anything in it that jumps out at me to say that he's a lock to even make it out of his bracket. The field is too tough to favor anyone. So, that's why I'm asking. IMO, he's no better than anyone else in his grouping and will have a tough time getting out of it. That's why I'm asking.
Over the past few months, Hohmann's name has come up more and more, as if he's doing something in 2005 that is making his name more justified. But, I haven't seen it. I see one title (though I have to believe there was at least one more). The 2005 BCA Open is impressive, but it also has the loosest pockets of the year for the men, so that can't be an advantage can it?
Fred <~~~ thinks Hohmann is a fine player
I was just giving some info to help appraise his recent form.Cornerman said:
I agree with you basically and I suspect the book makers will have a bunch of guys like Hohmann at more than 10 to 1 of winning. Feijin, Souquet...many others. I wouldn't back him at 10 to 1. Maybe 15 to 1.
I think we'll really have to see how the IPT tournies play out. See if any of the guys actually have a consistant edge over the others, or maybe it will be a random shuffle of the top 20 players, depending on who gets hot at the right time.
Good question. Because 8 ball relies less on pure shot making ability than 9 ball and more on strategy, I'm guessing the standings will be more or less consistent from tournament to tournament. Unlike 9 ball, I doubt there will be much random shuffling of players throughout the standings...especially in a round robin format. I predict the top ten players will consistently be in the top ten. Likewise, the lower level players will consistenly be in the lower levels.Colin Colenso said:
Cornerman said:
So with that in mind noone is elite. Not Archer, not Strickland, not Manalo, noone. So, that's why I'm asking.
Cornerman said:
It is hard to believe this statement. You ask what Hohmann has done to deserve his place among the top names in the game and people give you such feats as winning the worlds, second in the US Open, Won the BCA, ect... What has Rodney Morris done in the last few years to make himself on par with Hohmann as far as results go? Jeremy Jones knocked off a US Open, but beyond that he has little to put him at the same level of accomplishments as Hohmann who is NOT a one hit wonder like Jones currently is. What has Manalo accomplished? He has far less credentials to put him anywhere near Hohmann on paper if that is how you want to judge him (which is what you have done at least once on this thread).
In the last 3 years Hohmann has been one of the more dominant players in pool ON PAPER. This can not be argued, Try comparing Archer's last 3 years to Hohmann's. Pagulayan is the only player that probably has a stronger showing in the last 3 years.
I turn the question around on to you. What have the OTHER players in Hohmann's group accomplished in the last 3 or 4 years to be considered at his level? If you look at the results of events Hohmann has proven to be a far more dominant player then Morris or Jones or even Manalo to date. He is the most accomplished player in his group in the last 3-4 years, he is probably the most accomplished player in the EVENT in the last 3-4 years if you dont count Allison's complete dominance on the WPBA.
Cornerman said:
Fred, I disagree slightly about the differnces between 8-ball and 14.1. The intensity and concentration level necessary to run-out is very much the same. Safety play is not much different either.
Certainly two, different games, but they are much closer than any other popular pocket billiards games.
I'm certainly not of the opinion that Thorston is the brightest shining star, but I think he deserves his notoriety.
Earl's best days are behind him and John has yet to win something as major as a World Champ or BCA. If he ever get his head right, that could change quickly.
When it comes to IPT 8-Ball, there is no question to me that Effren is the favorite!
I guess I'll never cease to be amazed how my posts can be so misconstrued. I think I asked a fair question. Did I judge Thorsten? You mean when I repeatedly said he's a great player? Is it harsh judgement if I don't think he is part of an elite player group such that I don't think he's a lock to get out of his grouping? Is that judgemental?Celtic said:
Right now, Manalo is the hottest player. That's why I picked him. Do I think he's a lock to get out of his grouping? Nope. He's got a tough group. But he's just won the 14.1 event and a 9-ball event just within the last two months. And he was second in the World 8-ball Championship last year to Efren. Those are strong credentials going into an 8-ball tournament.
Tony Robles is one of the best all-around players I've seen, and I've seen them all. Do I think he's a lock to get out of his group? Nope. Nobody is a lock in their group. Don't turn this around like I'm calling anyone else a lock. I'm not, nor will I.
I reported that I just watched Hohmann live at the US Open and didn't see the eliteness that would have me believe that he's a lock to get out of his grouping. I watched him play intently. He looked very composed and machine-like, very reminiscent of Souquet and Ortmann. I didn't see "elite," so I again am surprised at some of the reaction by some posters to his ommission by other posters. IMO, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that some people left out Hohmann. Yet, some people were definitely surprised. Do some posters who favor Hohmann truly believe that he's so much above the other players in his group that he's favored to get out of his group? That's what I'm asking. What's he done this year that would suggest it? What's he done recently that suggests it. I'm asking, not debating.
Colin put up some good information. Thorsten is ranked #4 in the WPA. Is #4 in the current ranks where he's played nearly every tournament considered "elite" enough? AZBilliards doesn't have him listed at winning anything, though he's won at least one title.
I'm not putting down Thorsten Hohmann.
Fred
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Hmmm... I guess we'll have to disagree. I feel the runout patterns are almost opposite each other, and the safety play is almost nothing alike. But, I'm sure I'm thinking of certain situations, and you're thinking of other situtations. I think the one area where 14.1 is closest to 8-ball is the bumps and nudges, and the clustering in the center of the table, especially the rack area. But I think the cueball paths are unlike each other, and the overall shot selection is completely different. But, that's just me.CrownCityCorey said:
Don't get me wrong. He deserves respect and notoriety. I think he needs to dominate a few more tournaments to be considered "up there."
I hope not. He's just won a tournament, so maybe they're not too far behind. And I was wrong about his "recent" 8-ball championship. It was in 1999, so it's been a few years, arthritisly speaking.
That's why I say that the 400 ball run isn't much of a measuring tool.
Happily agree.
Fred
Cornerman said:
I guess I am talking about the mental aspect of the game. 8-Ball and Straight Pool require an intense focus as you MUST think many, many balls ahead before every move (unlike the roboticaly simple 9-ball game).
With regard to 8-Ball, my own experience has told me you must map out your ENTIRE run-out pattern before you get started. With regard to straight pool, it is best to map out the next 5 shots+.
Since 9-Ball only requires 3 shots ahead and one-pocket is a whole different animal, I think the two games are similar. Strategy is no doubt different.
Agreed.CrownCityCorey said:
With regard to 8-Ball, my own experience has told me you must map out your ENTIRE run-out pattern before you get started. With regard to straight pool, it is best to map out the next 5 shots+.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you're right. I think a big mistake 8-ball players make is that they only map out 3 balls like they would in 9-ball. I think the entire runout has to be mapped, and of course re-evaluated at every inning/screw up.
Fred
Cornerman said:
You already quoted the list of his accomplishments in the last 3 years that someone gave you. He is the 2003 world 9-ball champ. 2003 NJ 14.1 champ, 2004 US Open runner up, 2005 BCA champ, 2004 Euro 8-ball champ, and "those are strong credentials going into an 8-ball tournament".
What has Tony Robles done to prove himself Hohmann's equal? He is definately NOT at the same level if you go by the results. You may think he has a great stroke but at the end of the day it is Hohmann with the titles and Robles without. I see Robles at a far lower level then Hohmann, but I do so in a objective fashion of looking at their records and past accomplishments. Robles simply does not have the titles and big wins to back up putting him at an equal level of Hohmann.
Thats why I asked YOU what the other players in his group have done to justify being seen at the same level as Hohmann, you did not answer. You claim Manalo is on a short term run of good wins, OK, that is an answer. That is only one guy though, there are two more spots and since you brought up this thread I think you should actually be the one to claim why you think the other players in Hohmann's group should actually be considered as equally likely to make it through their group when they have shown time and time again they are not as able to get it done as he is when the chips are on the table.
Celtic said:
I disagree. The point of the thread isn't "let Fred back up claims of other players." Because I didn't have any claims on any player. It was simply a post directed at what I thought were defiant responses when others left Hohmann off their picks. Let's not turn this around to something I didn't say.
I still don't see it. I see no dominance. And as I said, Manalo is the hottest player of late, and he won the Sands this year, a long time major tournament. And I'm certainly not surprised if people leave him off their list. Do you see where I'm coming from now? I'm not surprised one iota that people leave anyone off their list.
And, I wouldn't be surprised if Karen Corr, Allison Fisher or Gerda Hofstatter make it out of their respective bracket.
Fred <~~~ I'd be stunned
