Holding cue when breaking.

K

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On the Jerry Breiseth dvd his says to move your hand far up toward the joint, maybe the top of the wrap to add power on the break. I learned to hold the cue further back toward the butt end to add power. I have tried Jerry's suggestion and I think it works. Is it my imagination or real?

What do intructors here think?
 
Joel...Jerry didn't say move it far up, just a few inches. This is to allow a faster swing (less range of motion). I believe the same thing, but without moving the hand...and instead, just use a 3/4 length backswing. You still need a loose grip, a slow backswing, and a finish point against your body, to avoid clenching the cue on impact.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Seems to me shortening the backstroke would give you better accuracy and less power. There must be a dynamic at work that escapes me...
 
Okie...That's because the break is not about power...it's about speed and timing. The big myth is that you have slam the cue into the CB, and lunge at the rack. Both things are untrue. Proficient accuracy is of ultimate importance, though...as is a loose grip, relaxed muscles, and a high speed swing (that does not need to incorporate the elbow drop, and an extended followthrough). Like in all shots, let the cue do the work, instead of trying to "force" it through the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Okie said:
Seems to me shortening the backstroke would give you better accuracy and less power. There must be a dynamic at work that escapes me...
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Okie...That's because the break is not about power...it's about speed and timing. The big myth is that you have slam the cue into the CB, and lunge at the rack. Both things are untrue. Proficient accuracy is of ultimate importance, though...as is a loose grip, relaxed muscles, and a high speed swing (that does not need to incorporate the elbow drop, and an extended followthrough). Like in all shots, let the cue do the work, instead of trying to "force" it through the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Is it true that a shorter backstroke length reduces the top speed you can achieve before impact? Is it true that a shorter backstroke is easier to control?

Obviously, I think the answer to both is yes. Am I right?
 
Okie...No, on both issues. The bicep is a 'white' muscle, made up of "quick-twitch" fibers, that respond to brain commands...as opposed to 'red' muscles, like your thigh, that are load-bearing. So, the shorter length swing actually allows a faster swing. Top speed is a relative term. MOST players do not break at 25-30 mph, and a controlled 15-20 mph break speed is plenty to get the job done, with accuracy and good, consistent results. A pendulum swing, using relaxed muscles, is far easier to control than a piston stroke (think elbow drop). Fewer components = simpler motion = better accuracy

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Okie said:
Is it true that a shorter backstroke length reduces the top speed you can achieve before impact? Is it true that a shorter backstroke is easier to control?

Obviously, I think the answer to both is yes. Am I right?
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Okie...No, on both issues. The bicep is a 'white' muscle, made up of "quick-twitch" fibers, that respond to brain commands...as opposed to 'red' muscles, like your thigh, that are load-bearing. So, the shorter length swing actually allows a faster swing. Top speed is a relative term. MOST players do not break at 25-30 mph, and a controlled 15-20 mph break speed is plenty to get the job done, with accuracy and good, consistent results. A pendulum swing, using relaxed muscles, is far easier to control than a piston stroke (think elbow drop). Fewer components = simpler motion = better accuracy

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

My bad...I didn't realize we were soft breaking. I understand completely the benefits of taking some speed off of a break.

Makes sense to me
 
kaznj said:
On the Jerry Breiseth dvd his says to move your hand far up toward the joint, maybe the top of the wrap to add power on the break. I learned to hold the cue further back toward the butt end to add power. I have tried Jerry's suggestion and I think it works. Is it my imagination or real?

What do intructors here think?
Click to expand...



Scott knows. I teach the same thing every day.
Shorten up on the grip and get more speed than going backwards on the grip.

randyg
 
Personally I find this true. At 4-6" behind the joint I get most break speed. I really focus on following through at least 2-3 diamonds.
 
boogieman...That is way too far forward to hold the cue, and the extended followthrough doesn't do anything...the CB is gone, after contact with the tip, in 1/1000th of a second. If you want to move your grip hand ahead, for the break, it should be no more than about 4-5" in front of where your normal grip place is supposed to be (where your hand falls directly underneath your elbow, with the tip at the CB).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

boogieman said:
Personally I find this true. At 4-6" behind the joint I get most break speed. I really focus on following through at least 2-3 diamonds.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
boogieman...That is way too far forward to hold the cue, and the extended followthrough doesn't do anything...the CB is gone, after contact with the tip, in 1/1000th of a second. If you want to move your grip hand ahead, for the break, it should be no more than about 4-5" in front of where your normal grip place is supposed to be (where your hand falls directly underneath your elbow, with the tip at the CB).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Hi Scott...Mr. Why here again...

Can you clarify what you mean by extended follow through? As a golf instructor, I saw plenty of students decelerate at impact and then force a follow through. Would what I consider to be a forced follow through in the golf swing be similar to what you are calling an extended follow through?

Thanks!
 
Okie...boogieman mentioned that he holds the cue only a few inches behind the joint (too far forward), and that he "follows through" 2-3 feet/diamonds (again WAY farther than necessary). All that is necessary, with a pendulum stroke, is to finish the swing naturally...which usually measures out to somewhere between 3-4" past the CB, up to 8-9" past the CB (depending on the build and swing path length of the shooter...we are all built differently). A piston stroke (elbow drop) could enable a 2-3 foot followthrough, but it isn't necessary, and doesn't produce a greater or more accurate effect on the outcome. Most golf instructors teach a "natural" finish to the swing...which is the same thing I teach for poolplayers...the main difference being golf is played with different length backswings, and we teach a static range of motion, and varying rates of acceleration to the same finish point (along with a loose grip on the cuestick). Hope that explains it well enough.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Okie said:
Hi Scott...Mr. Why here again...

Can you clarify what you mean by extended follow through? As a golf instructor, I saw plenty of students decelerate at impact and then force a follow through. Would what I consider to be a forced follow through in the golf swing be similar to what you are calling an extended follow through?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
Okie said:
Is it true that a shorter backstroke length reduces the top speed you can achieve before impact? Is it true that a shorter backstroke is easier to control?

Obviously, I think the answer to both is yes. Am I right?
Click to expand...

Scott Lee said:
Okie...No, on both issues. The bicep is a 'white' muscle, made up of "quick-twitch" fibers, that respond to brain commands...as opposed to 'red' muscles, like your thigh, that are load-bearing. So, the shorter length swing actually allows a faster swing. Top speed is a relative term. MOST players do not break at 25-30 mph, and a controlled 15-20 mph break speed is plenty to get the job done, with accuracy and good, consistent results. A pendulum swing, using relaxed muscles, is far easier to control than a piston stroke (think elbow drop). Fewer components = simpler motion = better accuracy

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott - I don't understand your answer to the question in blue. If we are talking about a normal range of stroke, how does a shorter backstroke not reduce the top speed you can achieve?

I'm thinking you can easily prove that a shorter backstroke limits your maximum speed. All you have to do is pull your cue back 1 inch, now pause, then see how hard you can hit the break. Do it again, but this time pull the cue back 6 inches, then see how hard you can hit the break. I think you will quickly see that the length of the backstroke clearly has an effect on your top speed.

What am I missing here?
 
BasementDweller said:
Scott - I don't understand your answer to the question in blue. If we are talking about a normal range of stroke, how does a shorter backstroke not reduce the top speed you can achieve?

I'm thinking you can easily prove that a shorter backstroke limits your maximum speed. All you have to do is pull your cue back 1 inch, now pause, then see how hard you can hit the break. Do it again, but this time pull the cue back 6 inches, then see how hard you can hit the break. I think you will quickly see that the length of the backstroke clearly has an effect on your top speed.

What am I missing here?
Click to expand...




"What am I missing here?".....Terminology!
What does shorter mean? What does more speed (than what?) mean?

The length of back stroke could cause a loss in speed. So what causes the cue to move forward...the Biceps. The Biceps have a very short effective range. The more you strech out the Bicep the less speed it will move at. Scott knows this information, so does Jerry Briesath.

Call me and I will explain this to anyone interested.
randyg....214 908-2908
 
Think of a boxer, which is more effective.

A short compact punch, or a long looping one.


BasementDweller said:
Scott - I don't understand your answer to the question in blue. If we are talking about a normal range of stroke, how does a shorter backstroke not reduce the top speed you can achieve?

I'm thinking you can easily prove that a shorter backstroke limits your maximum speed. All you have to do is pull your cue back 1 inch, now pause, then see how hard you can hit the break. Do it again, but this time pull the cue back 6 inches, then see how hard you can hit the break. I think you will quickly see that the length of the backstroke clearly has an effect on your top speed.

What am I missing here?
Click to expand...
 
Golf players use their wrists upon impact. SVB has nice wrist action, that combined with timing is nice to watch.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Think of a boxer, which is more effective.

A short compact punch, or a long looping one.
Click to expand...

I do choke up on the cue during the break shot, but I tend to use a slightly longer bridge than normal. It's my opinion that a longer bridge is a better option. I'm open minded on all things pool related so I was just trying to understand where Scott was coming from. I suppose the bridge length could get too long. At that point, you are hitting the cue ball so far past 90 degrees that you are losing power. Maybe this is what you guys are referring too. I'm not sure.

Dr. Dave's site has some interesting stuff on it regarding the break:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#advice

His advice is to use a longer bridge. Colin's info mentions choking up on the cue in order to give you a longer lever. This makes sense to me.
 
I choke up the cue a bit, about 2 - 3". Helps enable that long lever approach that you mentioned. I try to keep my bridge length as close to the natural pivot point on my break cue if I can for power breaks so that any unintentional english is mostly or completely canceled out. Not always possible depending on type of cue being used or having to move your break shot around.

You can't generate as much speed with a 1" backstroke as with a longer backstroke, as someone said if you pull back 1" I challenge anyone to accelerate fast enough in that small amount of space and time to generate any real power. But there is probably a limit - a 4" or 6" backswing might be sufficient and taking it back 10, 12 , or more inches is not necessarily going to increase your speed, I think that's what Scott and Randy are saying.

Even though I drop my elbow somewhat and extend on most shots and on the break, you certainly don't need to in order to generate a fair amount of power. And usually medium speed and accuracy is more important than trying to gain a few mph at the expense of accuracy.

Scott
 
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