Hopefully The Last Aiming Thread Of All-Time

A

AimingVoodoo

Banned
I’d like to open up a discussion on aiming methods that will lead to something substantial. After reading through many threads on the subject, I think many are quick to make assumptions about things that are difficult to say much about for sure.

We have seen Stan Shuffett have great success in the US Open using his Pro 1/CTE method. And of course Darren Appleton is using the SEE method, and has won the last two US Opens consecutively. This has led to a debate regarding the two methods, and certainly there are many pool players who are now interested in learning these methods after seeing players succeed in big tournaments using them.

First I would like to bring something up that I have never heard anyone else talk about. I have watched pool matches in pro tournaments extensively, I can’t put a number on it, but probably in the thousands. I am here to tell you that the top professional players are not that much better SHOT MAKERS than you or I. Yes, they are better, but not much better.

I think we can agree that an aiming system is not needed, or helpful, on many shots in a typical 9-ball match. If the shot is sufficiently straight, or if it is relatively short, we can just focus on cueball control, and not even worry about missing. So the only shots that could require an aiming method are shots of a certain difficulty. Keep that in mind.

Now consider several of the top professional players over the past few generations. Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Mika Immonen, you could name many more. Truly watch these players closely. You will find that their CUEBALL CONTROL is such that they barely ever need to shoot a shot that is difficult to pocket the ball. When the audience claps for a shot, it is most often because of their precise cueball control, not because they pocketed a difficult shot. In fact, you will notice that on those difficult shots where an aiming system could be useful, the top professionals are usually playing safe!

In fact, you will notice that when the top professionals do go after difficult shots, they are likely to miss! The reason they don’t miss much is that they simply don’t try these shots that often. Their cueball control is so good that these shots simply don’t come up very often.

The BRILLIANCE of players like Nick Varner, Alex Pagulayan, and Darren Appleton is not in their shotmaking ability, it is their cueball control. Note the importance here: When these players play bad position, they have a tendency to miss! Whatever aiming system they are using is not helping them on the most difficult shots when they arise.

If there is a time when an aiming system would be most useful, it is when you get out of line. If a top professional like Darren Appleton had an aiming system that was worth anything, they would not play safe. They would shoot the extremely difficult shot and pocket the ball. That’s what the aiming system is for! If a top professional thinks playing safe on a hard shot gives them a better chance to win than using their aiming system and trying to pocket the ball, then what good is the aiming system?

This is not an attack on any specific aiming system. My argument is that there are limitations in human coordination that make aiming systems unimportant. There are some players who use ghost ball, or play by feel. The same thing applies to these methods. They break down on difficult shots, which is precisely when you need them most! You don’t need them on the easy shots.

I know many people were excited that Stan Shuffett had great success in the US Open. And some are suggesting this could bode well for Pro 1/CTE. I have not heard the other side of the argument. Stevie Moore is capable of beating anyone, and he used Pro 1/CTE in the US Open, and I don’t believe he even cashed.

I’d like to tackle one more topic. This is not related to any one specific player. Stevie Moore and Darren Appleton play a sport with an unbelievably high level of competition. Same for all the other pros. Do you think it is in their best interest to endorse/promote a method that will assist their competition in defeating them? Does any professional pool player make enough money to be able to go around releasing important aiming techniques that could assist their opponents? Let me put it to you this way. There are many players throughout the past few generations that would point their cue at the same spot on their practice strokes for every shot. They would not let their opponent, or anyone else know how they made the shot.

Is Darren so good that he can give every other player his aiming secret, and he can still win? This is not anything against a specific player. It’s just something to think about.

But I would like you to watch these matches very closely, and notice how many difficult shots that the pros actually shoot. And yes, they have a tendency to miss them. The reason they only miss a few times per set is that they don’t leave themselves difficult shots!

I’m a little tired. I have more to say, and I know that this wasn’t constructed very well. But I will add more in the future.

Edit: I have one more thing to add. I own a video of two 10-ball ring games from the 2004 Derby City Classic. The rules were such that no intentional safeties were allowed. You needed to try and pocket a ball on every shot.

And I will tell you that whatever aiming system these pros were using at the time did not work. Their runs broke down when they came up to difficult shots (they could not play safe). They missed just like you and I do. When they were left a long shot, their percentages were not very good. And this is when they needed the aiming system to work most! Nobody was running racks. If any of their aiming systems were doing them any good, at some point they would have stepped up and ran at least a few racks.

I think the 10-ball ring game is an eye opener for shot making skills. And I would hope to see one for the 2012 Derby City Classic.
 
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Just so people are not mixed up, aiming voodoo is not me. I use the that term to describe the aiming system I use and help share... so I didn't want anyone to think this is me.

But I do not think this will be the last aiming thread. Nice try though.
 
I played 20 years without a formal aiming system, played with them a bit but started using CTE/Pro1 in February or so. For me, I can say that it helped my approach to shots and increased my overall ball pocketing percentage.

True, a lot of your standard 0 - 20 degree cuts are pretty easy to aim by ghost ball, contact point, feel, or whatever method you choose with enough repetition. What I like about the system approach is the consistency and the fact that I shoot a 50 degree backcut in the same manner as I shoot those 10 degree cut shots. My percentage is not as high because of the mechanics of delivering the cue where intended and the inherent smaller margin of error on those types of shots, but certainly much higher than my old method, and I have no feeling of "guessing" as I used to.

That being said, I certainly don't believe it's a necessity to playing pool at a high level. I don't believe Archer, Strickland, Varner, Buddy, etc. used any sort of aiming system, maybe many of today's players don't either. Natural talent and brilliant eye/hand coordination and thousands of hours of practice will do wonders all on their own. I do believe for some players it does help breed confidence and promote some of the things that have been discussed numerous times here before - preshot routine, consistency in alignment, etc. But aiming is really only a small part of playing at a high level.

I have actually been in a slump lately - my playing time went down a bit, and I think I lost my way a bit as I was fine tuning my approach to things, and then I think I changed some things on top of that instead of just weathering the storm, so now I'm all confused. I've noticed that because of using CTE/Pro1 I at least have a defined method to approach and aim the shots, even though I'm missing them due to poor mechanics or focus. Although on the flip side, I'm almost dependent on approaching the shots in that manner, it's tougher as time goes on to just aim by feel using my old method with the same degree of confidence. Then again, the CTE approach is so ingrained at this point that I don't really feel like I'm studying the lines, aim points, etc., it all comes very naturally.

I look at the systems - aiming, banking, kicking, etc. - as knowledge and tools to potentially help your game. Sometimes I think people (me for sure) can overcomplicate things and worry about tweaking things all the time because of new information, but in general I think knowledge is power and is a good thing. And compared to when I learned the game, when everything was so secretive and hard to come by, I appreciate seeing different ways of doing things and incorporating the things that make sense and work for me into my game.

Scott
 
1. There will never be an end to aiming threads unless the moderators decide to aggressively ban them. Which is unlikely since they generate a lot of traffic for the forum.

2. There are many ways to Rome. For amateurs who do NOT have the benefit of playing 8 hours a day and being mentored by champions there are many techniques to play around with to get the most out of the time they do have to spend on pool.

3. Darren is not releasing secrets that only he knows. Ekkes developed the content which itself is a compilation of many systems with perhaps a few refinements here and there. Darren has stated that what Ekkes put out there is what he uses now but is very similar to what he used before meeting Ekkes. Darren knows that all top players have reached Rome when it comes to the mechanics of the game. He knows just as the rest of us do that getting down on the right line is ONLY the first step to making the shot. The next step is the much more important one and that is actually hitting the cue ball correctly.

4. This statement is incorrect:

This is not an attack on any specific aiming system. My argument is that there are limitations in human coordination that make aiming systems unimportant. There are some players who use ghost ball, or play by feel. The same thing applies to these methods. They break down on difficult shots, which is precisely when you need them most! You don’t need them on the easy shots.

As Mosconi is reported to have said, the difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional knows that there are no easy shots.

I am speaking of my own experience here and not for anyone else. For ME using an aiming system allows me to make the "difficult" shots with much more consistency. I proved this yesterday yet again for my guests.

And Darren himself said that using the system helped him especially under pressure.

Take banking and kicking as an example. There are systems for both that are indisputable. By that I mean that they diagram 100% correctly. Using them a decent amateur can improve his kicking and banking make percentages significantly. The top players don't actively use these systems but many of them know them well. When they step to the table for a kick or bank shot they simply see the shot in it's entirely without having to measure anything. BUT sometimes when things are not going well or it's a little tricky you will see them measure the shot using whatever system they are comfortable with.

So to me these methods are very useful as a way to check yourself and give the player a little bit extra way to be consistent in their approach. When I am playing good then the method I use doesn't look mechanical or weird. I look very free flowing, playing quick and decisively without agonizing over shots.

5. Cue ball control follows proper aim.
 
JB Cases said:
1. There will never be an end to aiming threads unless the moderators decide to aggressively ban them. Which is unlikely since they generate a lot of traffic for the forum.

2. There are many ways to Rome. For amateurs who do NOT have the benefit of playing 8 hours a day and being mentored by champions there are many techniques to play around with to get the most out of the time they do have to spend on pool.

3. Darren is not releasing secrets that only he knows. Ekkes developed the content which itself is a compilation of many systems with perhaps a few refinements here and there. Darren has stated that what Ekkes put out there is what he uses now but is very similar to what he used before meeting Ekkes. Darren knows that all top players have reached Rome when it comes to the mechanics of the game. He knows just as the rest of us do that getting down on the right line is ONLY the first step to making the shot. The next step is the much more important one and that is actually hitting the cue ball correctly.

4. This statement is incorrect:

This is not an attack on any specific aiming system. My argument is that there are limitations in human coordination that make aiming systems unimportant. There are some players who use ghost ball, or play by feel. The same thing applies to these methods. They break down on difficult shots, which is precisely when you need them most! You don’t need them on the easy shots.

As Mosconi is reported to have said, the difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional knows that there are no easy shots.

I am speaking of my own experience here and not for anyone else. For ME using an aiming system allows me to make the "difficult" shots with much more consistency. I proved this yesterday yet again for my guests.

And Darren himself said that using the system helped him especially under pressure.

Take banking and kicking as an example. There are systems for both that are indisputable. By that I mean that they diagram 100% correctly. Using them a decent amateur can improve his kicking and banking make percentages significantly. The top players don't actively use these systems but many of them know them well. When they step to the table for a kick or bank shot they simply see the shot in it's entirely without having to measure anything. BUT sometimes when things are not going well or it's a little tricky you will see them measure the shot using whatever system they are comfortable with.

So to me these methods are very useful as a way to check yourself and give the player a little bit extra way to be consistent in their approach. When I am playing good then the method I use doesn't look mechanical or weird. I look very free flowing, playing quick and decisively without agonizing over shots.

5. Cue ball control follows proper aim.
Click to expand...

Points all well taken, thank you for the reply.

I feel that I disagree with Mosconi regarding easy shots, at least in his game of straight pool. And I think that maybe if he had the opportunity to expand on what he said, it might not come out sounding the same, let me explain......

Straight pool could require you to hit 200 shots if you are a top professional. IF you happen to break them wide open on the break shot, it could be advisable to clear 5,6 or 7 balls before beginning to focus on your end pattern. In the beginning shots, you are simply making the ball without exerting maximum mental effort. If you put maximum mental anguish into every shot, you are likely to become mentally fatigued.

So it is common for straight pool players to just loosely hit in the first few balls. You can ask Beard about this, and I am sure he would have more to add. I do fully believe that there are "easy" shots that do not require maximum mental exertion. I think it is comparable to a hockey player. A hockey player has a 45 second shift, but if he skated with full effort for the entire 45 seconds, he would break down later in the game. Instead, he expertly locates opportunities to "take it easy." I think the pool player will do this as well.

Even in 9-ball there are opportunities to save your mental fatigue. Especially in TAR matches when racing to 100. I can certainly guarantee that Shane, Alex, Earl and others are finding opportunities where they can just "take it easy." Maybe it's an easy 7-8-9 pattern. They are just staying loose and taking it easy. If they anguished over every shot, they might blow themselves out before the end of the match.

In one pocket and bank pool the situation is more difficult. Pretty much every shot taken in these games is critical. I think this is because cueball placement is so important on every shot.

I have more to add on this topic, and I have something to say about confidence and fear that I will add later on.
 
We are in full agreement that pool is SO MUCH MORE than aiming. And of course there are "easy" shots. But to me Mosconi's quote says that a pro does not (or should not) take any shots for granted. Maybe this attitude comes from the fact that Mosconi did not win the very first world championship he entered because he slammed an "easy" shot out of arrogance and missed it and the resulting match defeat cost him the title after he had dominated all his other matches.

But I do agree that there are "Cosmo" outs where it's connect the dots without a lot of mental energy expended. And it's very interesting that you bring this up because my guest yesterday coincidentally brought up the same point about conservation of energy. He said that to him using an aiming system would seem to be better to conserve mental energy because it prescribes the line. We traded "tough" shots and he did his by feel and I did mine by system. Some he sliced right in and others he labored over. For every one of mine I simply got down and into position without hesitation and shot them in.

Confidence and Fear: There is no doubt in my mind that these two aspect are PROBABLY responsible for more good play and bad play than anything else. Anyone who gambles on pool in a serious way, and by serious I mean where losing HURTS, knows this. I have played guys where I was so afraid of missing that I could not pull the trigger on the simplest shots and where my arm felt like jelly. Conversely I have played at times where I have made shots from places that are unreal over and over again for hours, freewheeling because I felt no fear whatsoever. All decent players know both states. I don't want to make this another drugs debate but we all know that MANY players turn to drugs to regulate their mood and attempt to get them into the no fear zone. In any case having no confidence can destroy all chance of making any shot.

But for me personally when the chips are down and I am facing a tough shot that will cost me the game or the set if I miss then having and using an aiming system has definitely been the rock to get me through it. For myself it's the knowing (or trusting) that I am on the right shot line which has freed my mind to focus on the proper stroke, follow through, staying down etc....
 
Thank god somebody brings postional play into the point of aim systems. Did Mosconi and all the other greats have a need or "quick fix" systems to up their play?? No they just played the game with great position and cueball control with safety play if they missed their postion...

Great post and I hope most take this to heart... Yes we can all have this great (and they are great) aiming methods but without great postional play they are worthless and that is the driving point.

Learn how to eye the ball... Hit it with a solid storke with a finer touch and your golden!!! Nobody in the WORLD can show or teach you HOW to hit a ball with finese and touch. Sure yoru aim is SPOT ON but if you dont have a solid dependable stroke with that light but beautiful touch your shit!! Well maybe not shit but you know where im going with this :lol:
 
RunoutJJ said:
Thank god somebody brings postional play into the point of aim systems. Did Mosconi and all the other greats have a need or "quick fix" systems to up their play?? No they just played the game with great position and cueball control with safety play if they missed their postion...

Great post and I hope most take this to heart... Yes we can all have this great (and they are great) aiming methods but without great postional play they are worthless and that is the driving point.

Learn how to eye the ball... Hit it with a solid storke with a finer touch and your golden!!! Nobody in the WORLD can show or teach you HOW to hit a ball with finese and touch. Sure yoru aim is SPOT ON but if you dont have a solid dependable stroke with that light but beautiful touch your shit!! Well maybe not shit but you know where im going with this :lol:
Click to expand...

Speaking ONLY for myself: My position play is WAY better after learning to aim using an aiming system. I have said this same thing a thousand times and it ALWAYS gets ignored.

How about thinking about it like this, the best position is shit if you don't make the shot. So before you can play position you MUST learn to aim accurately if you intend to become a runout player.

In pocket billiards we keep score by who drops the winning balls not be who gets position on them.

Aiming has NOTHING to do with stroke, finesse, touch, speed control, how to read a table, draw, follow, stop or any of the other hundred aspects that make a great player. Aiming is only the ability to drop the bridge hand and the cue on the shot line. If I played you a match where we both had to shoot ONLY center ball and I was able to aim better than you then I would make more shots than you and most likely would win more games and more sets.

If you and I were perfectly matched in every other aspect of pool BUT aiming then the one of us that could put the stick on the shot line better wins.

That's what aiming is and what aiming systems are about. Nothing else.

What follows proper aiming though is the ability to play better position, to develop a better touch, to better understand speed control etc....
 
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I asked a local player that can be considered a pro player how he got to be so good. His answer: "You have to ask the man upstairs. I honestly dont know the answer. I have always been able to play great. It is just a gift.".

I think his answer is the reason that many of the top pros cannot be teachers at the game. They really don't know the answer to what, why or how they became so great, and this is not limited to pool players. For some reason they just have that "natural" talent. Granted they have at sometime practiced something but just have that feel.


I have Stan's DVD's and his system does help but as the OP stated and as I have always heard that you need to fall in love with the cue ball because cue ball control is the secret to the game. That is why the pros can make such remarkable safties. They can and know how to control whitey. Efren was a billiard champ. That is cue ball control, no pockets involved.

Players that can make shots are known as shot makers or ball bangers and they are good to an extent but never reach the next level. They will always be ball bangers.

14.1, banks, and one pocket are real test of ability and those games really seperate the pros because of the other skills involved besides pocketing balls. That is what makes the Derby so great.

.
 
This is a good thread. Best of all, all postings have been civil and there is a lot of good points being made by many posters. I hope it continues this way as I have read some stuff that I do not think I have ever read before on the subject of aiming, and it has got my mind to working. Let's keep posting opinions and please, for the sake of enlightenment and education, let's continue to respect each others opinions and comments.

Maniac
 
RunoutJJ said:
Thank god somebody brings postional play into the point of aim systems. Did Mosconi and all the other greats have a need or "quick fix" systems to up their play?? No they just played the game with great position and cueball control with safety play if they missed their postion...

Great post and I hope most take this to heart... Yes we can all have this great (and they are great) aiming methods but without great postional play they are worthless and that is the driving point.

Learn how to eye the ball... Hit it with a solid storke with a finer touch and your golden!!! Nobody in the WORLD can show or teach you HOW to hit a ball with finese and touch. Sure yoru aim is SPOT ON but if you dont have a solid dependable stroke with that light but beautiful touch your shit!! Well maybe not shit but you know where im going with this :lol:
Click to expand...

Forgive this beginner, but isn't the point of these aiming systems about being able to hit the cueball in such a way that you not only make the object ball, but also give yourself a better chance at position for your next shot?

Even a rank novice like myself can usually see a point to make the object ball. The real trick to advancement in this game is cue ball position, and that is the trick to aiming, at least to me. Hitting that cue ball in such a way that you not only make the object ball but also gives you shape on the next one is the key to the whole damn thing.

Now if only I could manage that.
 
JB Cases said:
Speaking ONLY for myself: My position play is WAY better after learning to aim using an aiming system. I have said this same thing a thousand times and it ALWAYS gets ignored.

How about thinking about it like this, the best position is shit if you don't make the shot. So before you can play position you MUST learn to aim accurately if you intend to become a runout player.

In pocket billiards we keep score by who drops the winning balls not be who gets position on them.

Aiming has NOTHING to do with stroke, finesse, touch, speed control, how to read a table, draw, follow, stop or any of the other hundred aspects that make a great player. Aiming is only the ability to drop the bridge hand and the cue on the shot line. If I played you a match where we both had to shoot ONLY center ball and I was able to aim better than you then I would make more shots than you and most likely would win more games and more sets.

If you and I were perfectly matched in every other aspect of pool BUT aiming then the one of us that could put the stick on the shot line better wins.

That's what aiming is and what aiming systems are about. Nothing else.

What follows proper aiming though is the ability to play better position, to develop a better touch, to better understand speed control etc....
Click to expand...


I hold hardly agree with you on your points but what I was getting at is you should just know HOW to hit a ball. Thats why I dug all those dead players out of their graves... Did they have all these types of aiming systems back in the day?? No they didnt they played on feel alone and got to the level they did by playing day in and day out!! In no way (which i said in my post) are these systems not great and useful but ULTIMATELY whether you have the sight you need the TOUCH to make it happen. You can only acheive this with constant play and practice. Just agreeing with the OP on this... Aiming system are great but are shit if you dont have the touch. Its pretty black and white IMHOGDOTDMS!!! Figure that one out :p
 
RunoutJJ said:
I hold hardly agree with you on your points but what I was getting at is you should just know HOW to hit a ball. Thats why I dug all those dead players out of their graves... Did they have all these types of aiming systems back in the day?? No they didnt they played on feel alone and got to the level they did by playing day in and day out!! In no way (which i said in my post) are these systems not great and useful but ULTIMATELY whether you have the sight you need the TOUCH to make it happen. You can only acheive this with constant play and practice. Just agreeing with the OP on this... Aiming system are great but are shit if you dont have the touch. Its pretty black and white IMHOGDOTDMS!!! Figure that one out :p
Click to expand...

Well actually the only way we could know for sure what any now dead player did is if we had candid and convincing information from that player written down somewhere. Hal Houle is from Greenleaf's era and he claims that Greenleaf showed him stuff that became the basis of the systems Hal developed. Now, since we aren't able to dig up Greenleaf and ask him we can only take Hal's word for it.

I have uncovered writings form the 20s where people have talked about ways to aim that are what you would consider alternatives to Ghost Ball.

I firmly believe that most authors chose to use Ghost Ball when discussing aiming in print because it is easy to diagram. However there is plenty of evidence to suggest that alternatives to Ghost Ball have existed for a hundred years or more.

But we shouldn't concern ourselves with what Mosconi did or did not use. We should focus on what is available today. Today you have many methods available to you to choose from and try. And of course none of them are going to get you very far along if you don't develop the rest of your game.

Again though this is all a red herring because aiming system proponents have NEVER ever said that aiming systems are the magic bullet that makes a beginner into a champion. In fact, I would argue that people who try aiming systems are even better students of the game than those who rely only on "feel". They may not always be better players than so-called feel players (of course this is hard to measure) but they certainly study the game in a much deeper way and suffer no illusion than any given method of aiming makes them a champion.

An aiming system is neither great nor shit. It just is. Ghost Ball jsut exists and it's only how well someone can use or see it that determines it's usefulness to them. It is 100% completely separated from touch. Touch is what you do when you hit the ball. Aiming is what you do before you hit the ball. You can have the greatest touch and lousy aim and miss every ball. Conversely you can have great aiming and lousy touch and still make a lot of balls but your position play will be weak.
 
Now I would like to expand upon confidence and fear as they apply to aiming systems. Many other people have a good understanding about what I am going to say here, but I think the majority don't.

When you are getting down to shoot a ball, if you are confident that you will pocket the ball, that will actually raise your chances of successfully pocketing the ball. If you actually imagine the object ball going into the pocket before you shoot, you will find your success rate will increase. Your aim, stroke, and everything that your brain controls is affected by your confidence.

If you approach a shot with an idea in your head that you are going to miss, then you are more likely to miss than normal. When you imagine missing a ball, your brain is likely to follow suit, and you will end up missing.

It sounds like a far stretch to say these things, but it is certainly true. And it applies to more than just cuesports. Before a field goal kicker kicks, he imagines the path the ball will travel through the goal posts. If he is kicking a 55 yard field goal and has it in his head that it is too far, he is much more likely to miss.

This idea is taught in almost every sport. It is very important that you actually imagine in your head making the ball, prior to actually taking the shot.

Now, it is simple to apply this idea to aiming systems. If an aiming system gives you the confidence that you will make a tough shot, then the aiming system has done some good, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY ASSIST IN AIMING.

The same could be said for anything at all that gives you confidence. If your mind tells you that you play really on Tuesdays, then you probably will play better on Tuesdays. But Tuesday doesn't have anything to do with it, the only important thing is that you have more confidence on Tuesdays.

So, even if an aiming system doesn't provide any assistance in pocketing the ball, IF IT GIVES YOU ADDITIONAL CONFIDENCE THAT YOU NORMALLY WOULDN'T HAVE, then it is worthwhile to use.

I think some people won't believe this idea, but it is well known and has been written about in pocket billiard literature before.
 
@JB great post in "Posting No 10" !

To know several aiming-systems helps a lot-especially if you re not in stroke or feeling uncomfortable.
And just for example the *see system* helps you to go ready aligned into the shot. So you also learn to make this a part of your pre-shot-routine.

Next to those many stupid aggressive postings i really liked some interesting postings,

keep shooting,

Ingo
 
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