How can we stop all the Bad Business Practices and Transactions on this forum!!!!!!!
- Thread starter manwon
- Start date
The title "How can we stop all the Bad Business Practices and Transactions on this forum!!!!!!" is a little strange to be on any forum.
What we have is the REPORTING of bad business practices.
If it bothers anybody, like a bad show on TV, don't watch the show, don't read the thread and your problem is solved.
But if your just bored, keep posting but it won't stop the cheaters or make any transactions between AZ'ers guaranteed to be cheater free.
What we have is the REPORTING of bad business practices.
If it bothers anybody, like a bad show on TV, don't watch the show, don't read the thread and your problem is solved.
But if your just bored, keep posting but it won't stop the cheaters or make any transactions between AZ'ers guaranteed to be cheater free.
Craig, as good an idea as this sounds, I think it's pissing in the wind. There is really no way to make it any better here imo...it's just too easy for any 'Joe Blow' to get multiple accounts here and too burdensome for the Mods to try to track all of that nonsense, who is who, which IPs, etc. and skirt around the rules.
We all have to remember that this place was not set up to be eBay or an eBay replacement as far as the multitude of transactions. Until it is (which probably will not be), it's about as good as it can get imho with eveyone doing the community self-policing. For anybody to jump on here and buy something in the blind from someone that's new or unknown without first checking references, background, or arranging an impartial escrow....well, it's just plain crazy, and it's rolling the dice. If you play with fire, sometimes you get burned. If the deal is too good to be true, usually it is. Sometimes I see people getting screwed around here and it seems to always boil down to them just not doing their homework on a seller. I feel bad for them, really I do, but don't be lazy....do damn, do some legwork. Treat it like the responsibility is on you. And try to buy from the reputable folks around here...there are a lot of them !!
We all have to remember that this place was not set up to be eBay or an eBay replacement as far as the multitude of transactions. Until it is (which probably will not be), it's about as good as it can get imho with eveyone doing the community self-policing. For anybody to jump on here and buy something in the blind from someone that's new or unknown without first checking references, background, or arranging an impartial escrow....well, it's just plain crazy, and it's rolling the dice. If you play with fire, sometimes you get burned. If the deal is too good to be true, usually it is. Sometimes I see people getting screwed around here and it seems to always boil down to them just not doing their homework on a seller. I feel bad for them, really I do, but don't be lazy....do damn, do some legwork. Treat it like the responsibility is on you. And try to buy from the reputable folks around here...there are a lot of them !!
BRKNRUN said:
It did not make any sense to continue... I am going to allow pool players I don't know elect a pool player I don't know to a position that allows them make decisions about my buying and selling transactions???
NOT!!!
Then what you are saying is because the people selected are pool players they can not be trusted to do the right thing?
It seems it would be much easier to have some sort of transaction feedback where a buyer/seller can add notes about a transaction that gets attached so that other can review for reference before deciding if they want to enter into a transaction... (just like ebay)
We already have that it called I-Trader, however, it doesn't stop the problems from occurring. Taking away some ones privileges will make people think before they act, and it will also put some rules in place all have to follow.
Just out of sheer curiosity....Once elected...who controls this board from running a muck and damaging who they want just for the sake of damaging???
For some reason......not right away maybe...but down the road...I see this ending up being morphed into....We control the buying and selling...If you want good rep to be able to sell your crap...you gotta pay us off...if you don't we will "virtually" bury your nick in the desert somewhere...
It is called integrity, and honesty, oh and by the way just because some one enjoys playing pool or buying and selling cues doesn't mean they lack those personal attributes.
They only have a few rules:
You must be a member in good standing
You must have a minumum of 50 posts before you are allowed to buy/sell
You must clearly list a item and value ($$) for that item
If the above is not met the post gets edited by a mod for notification that they do not meet the above requirements.
This forum regularly has over 2000 visitors. at any given time.
There are currently 1542 members and 553 guests on the boards. | Most users ever online was 3106 on 03/10/2008 at 07:21 PM
They don't seem to have problems.[/QUOTE]
These are very good idea's, however, this puts additional responsibility upon the forum and the Mod's, which I would doubt they have time for.
Thanks for your opinion!!
cigardave said:How much are these judges going to make? I'm considering throwing my hat in the ring.
Vote for cigardave... Free beer and free cigars (tomorrow).
They will have that feeling that comes form doing the right thing, and that is priceless!!!!:smile:
Committees bring in personalities. There are people on this forum that are well respected that I wouldn't consider doing business with. I'm sure there are people that wouldn't consider doing business with me.
Unfortunately the moderators of the forum will delete threads that have information that may protect us all. They won't ban some users for past transgressions, but will ban others. It is fairly wide open with scammers allowed to stay around.
Personally I think people should be allowed a little rope to resolve issues, but when its obvious they will not they should be out the door with their contact information, name, and any other relevant information posted so that they have a harder time coming back under another user name. Its funny how many times scam artist forget to change their email, and their names. Its also harder to change an address. I always look up peoples addresses and make sure it is theirs before I send a cue or money. If its not then I'm probably backing out of the deal. I've yet to have a problem, I realize I will. Its the cost of doing business on the internet or anywhere else for that matter.
Unfortunately the moderators of the forum will delete threads that have information that may protect us all. They won't ban some users for past transgressions, but will ban others. It is fairly wide open with scammers allowed to stay around.
Personally I think people should be allowed a little rope to resolve issues, but when its obvious they will not they should be out the door with their contact information, name, and any other relevant information posted so that they have a harder time coming back under another user name. Its funny how many times scam artist forget to change their email, and their names. Its also harder to change an address. I always look up peoples addresses and make sure it is theirs before I send a cue or money. If its not then I'm probably backing out of the deal. I've yet to have a problem, I realize I will. Its the cost of doing business on the internet or anywhere else for that matter.
I think we ALL should become REP whores like me, ok a degererate REP whores with no shame.
I'm happy, nothing here pisses me off for more than 5 seconds-I just move on and keep AZ a happy place. :thumbup:
All this other stuff is just to complicated for me, simple, honest people will set themselfs apart and its uncumbent upon other members to chose who they do business with, if they get screwed too bad for them, forming a Govt here to stop crime wont work any better than the "War on drugs". If you make a bad deal handle it your self, assume the responsibility and handle your own problems dont look for help elsewhere personal accountability is the solution. I have bought and sold over a million $$$ worth of stuff here(to put it into prespective-not to brag-so save that accusation) and had one bad deal for $300 on a bead counter, I forgot about it, it may have shipped to my office and disappeard I forgot who I did the deal with so it was on me for losing the records. I didnt point fingers, I fvcked up and its on me. So $300/$1,000,000 aint to bad and i'm not all that smart. Why people dont want to handle their business and rely on some sort of Govt structure to holds their hands to do their business I dont understand-are they lazy or dumb. Survival of the fittest. Darwin was a sharp guy.
Ok I'm done, back to whats really important, Being a "First Class REP Whore", I'm not a cheap date.
I'm happy, nothing here pisses me off for more than 5 seconds-I just move on and keep AZ a happy place. :thumbup:
All this other stuff is just to complicated for me, simple, honest people will set themselfs apart and its uncumbent upon other members to chose who they do business with, if they get screwed too bad for them, forming a Govt here to stop crime wont work any better than the "War on drugs". If you make a bad deal handle it your self, assume the responsibility and handle your own problems dont look for help elsewhere personal accountability is the solution. I have bought and sold over a million $$$ worth of stuff here(to put it into prespective-not to brag-so save that accusation) and had one bad deal for $300 on a bead counter, I forgot about it, it may have shipped to my office and disappeard I forgot who I did the deal with so it was on me for losing the records. I didnt point fingers, I fvcked up and its on me. So $300/$1,000,000 aint to bad and i'm not all that smart. Why people dont want to handle their business and rely on some sort of Govt structure to holds their hands to do their business I dont understand-are they lazy or dumb. Survival of the fittest. Darwin was a sharp guy.
Ok I'm done, back to whats really important, Being a "First Class REP Whore", I'm not a cheap date.
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Caveat Emptor
I think sending money, especially a large amount to anyone that is not known either thru reputation or the rating system already in place would be foolish to do so.
Caveat Emptor. It's one of the tricky parts of the freedoms we enjoy.
It is actually a responsibility of the buyer to beware.
I've had two great biz transactions here. I studied my purchase, then sought out the reputation of the seller, and then made the buy.
The BUYERS must be responsible for taking care as to not be scammed.
I think sending money, especially a large amount to anyone that is not known either thru reputation or the rating system already in place would be foolish to do so.
Caveat Emptor. It's one of the tricky parts of the freedoms we enjoy.
It is actually a responsibility of the buyer to beware.
I've had two great biz transactions here. I studied my purchase, then sought out the reputation of the seller, and then made the buy.
The BUYERS must be responsible for taking care as to not be scammed.
craig, i have to begin by saying i like you. we had some nice conversations when i was thinking about opening up a pool hall and you had some great ideas. now, i consider myself to be a "well respected" member of the board and have done numerous transactions both here and on ebay. i just had a transaction with a newbie, his first transaction, and i sent him a cue and trusted him to send a check.
that said, i am not a big fan of "rules" and if something like this goes into effect i will not participate. does that make me a bad seller or buyer???and how could you legislate that i had to follow your rules to do a transaction. i could just pm another member and make our own deals. this is a public forum, not somebody's personal playground. yes, it is run by mike, but it is still public. if everyone just was careful in who they dealt with and searched the boards to see history, most of this would go away. i do not need a guardian to watch over my transactions and there a number of upstanding members who offer escrow service which should be utilized more often.
i don't normally get involved in these arguments but i think there are a lot who think like this. this is just my one-time personal opinionand no debate will change my mind.
thank you.
guy
that said, i am not a big fan of "rules" and if something like this goes into effect i will not participate. does that make me a bad seller or buyer???and how could you legislate that i had to follow your rules to do a transaction. i could just pm another member and make our own deals. this is a public forum, not somebody's personal playground. yes, it is run by mike, but it is still public. if everyone just was careful in who they dealt with and searched the boards to see history, most of this would go away. i do not need a guardian to watch over my transactions and there a number of upstanding members who offer escrow service which should be utilized more often.
i don't normally get involved in these arguments but i think there are a lot who think like this. this is just my one-time personal opinionand no debate will change my mind.
thank you.
guy
i will say it again, pperhaps its just to simple...
All this other stuff is just to complicated for me, simple, honest people will set themselfs apart and its uncumbent upon other members to chose who they do business with, if they get screwed too bad for them, forming a Govt here to stop crime wont work any better than the "War on drugs". If you make a bad deal handle it your self, assume the responsibility and handle your own problems dont look for help elsewhere personal accountability is the solution.
I have bought and sold over a million $$$ worth of stuff here(to put it into prespective-not to brag-so save that accusation) and had one bad deal for $300 on a bead counter, I forgot about it, it may have shipped to my office and disappeard I forgot who I did the deal with so it was on me for losing the records. I didnt point fingers, I fvcked up and its on me. So $300/$1,000,000 aint to bad and i'm not all that smart. Why people dont want to handle their business and rely on some sort of Govt structure to holds their hands to do their business I dont understand-are they lazy or dumb. Survival of the fittest. Darwin was a sharp guy.
All this other stuff is just to complicated for me, simple, honest people will set themselfs apart and its uncumbent upon other members to chose who they do business with, if they get screwed too bad for them, forming a Govt here to stop crime wont work any better than the "War on drugs". If you make a bad deal handle it your self, assume the responsibility and handle your own problems dont look for help elsewhere personal accountability is the solution.
I have bought and sold over a million $$$ worth of stuff here(to put it into prespective-not to brag-so save that accusation) and had one bad deal for $300 on a bead counter, I forgot about it, it may have shipped to my office and disappeard I forgot who I did the deal with so it was on me for losing the records. I didnt point fingers, I fvcked up and its on me. So $300/$1,000,000 aint to bad and i'm not all that smart. Why people dont want to handle their business and rely on some sort of Govt structure to holds their hands to do their business I dont understand-are they lazy or dumb. Survival of the fittest. Darwin was a sharp guy.
setting up accouts with SS# will open up more cans of worms than you guys even begin to undrstand,
also the FCRA fari crerdit reporting act might come into play,
stick to what you know, I know about this stuff and using descriminatory tools is just a problem looking for a site to attach itself from.
its on the buyer, if the buyer makes a bad deal, tough shit on him for picking the wrong guy to do biz with.
also the FCRA fari crerdit reporting act might come into play,
stick to what you know, I know about this stuff and using descriminatory tools is just a problem looking for a site to attach itself from.
its on the buyer, if the buyer makes a bad deal, tough shit on him for picking the wrong guy to do biz with.
Fatboy said:
Thank for your comments Fatboy, this is exactly the kind of input I was looking for in this thread, and in my opinion everyones opinion is important. I totally respect your stance on the subject and for most of the membership it is not a major problem, so in the end I think you are right!!
I also totally agree that Darwin was a sharp guy, but his concept of reality was incomplete and by todays standards a little antiquated!!!!!!!!
Take Care
manwon said:
These are very good idea's, however, this puts additional responsibility upon the forum and the Mod's, which I would doubt they have time for.
Thanks for your opinion!![/QUOTE]
You are right...there are pool players with integrity and honesty... and actually if you knew me in person you would probably find out that I give most people the benefit of the doubt.....but you don't you are only able to determine what you know about me through a few posts I have made....which is exactly my point...how can you really know what kind of person I am with out ever meeting me???
But there is also a reason why you here so many sayings and one liners about pool players...I did not make those up so don't blame me for the sterotype.
The other thing is...You baseing your decision of honesty and integrity on posts on a forum board...get real...
I would bet top dollar I could come on here and make a fake nick and make you "think" I am the most honest John you have (NEVER) met.
Sure it is a waste of time for me and probably you and 1000s of others that would not go through all the trouble...but how do you really know that Mr. 1 out of a 1000 is seeing a thread like this and plotting his sceme.
So does Itrader allow you to leave comments that others can review prior to doing business......or is it just like the green dots....???
Again...I applaud you efforts in making the forum a better place...I just think there are much easier ways of doing it and have less chance of collusion.
It seems to me that if you are going to offer something to the public then you should be publically available.
I have sold seven ball polishers through AZB to date five were prepaid through PayPal. One of the two remaining people paid by check before the machine was sent. The last person said he would pay when he received it and we had to dog him to get the money. It took awhile but he paid through PayPal with no problem when our understanding was explained.
One person bought a ball polisher that was damaged in shipment and it did not work. After a few attempts to fix it through emails he returned it for a full refund through PayPal. I fixed the machine and sent it back to him as a gift because he trusted us and he got let down. A few weeks later the fellow sent me a payment through PayPal anyway because he knew that we had time and money invested in the project.
After making the first batch of machines I learned that the handle was too short on three of the machine and these were replaced.
We have sold at least four portable counters through the forum using PayPal and there have been no problems with any of the transactions.
Using PayPal and a publicly stated guarantee has been helpful. In addition it is very easy to contact me at home, by phone or through my web site. I think that the net is like a telephone book and there is or should be no problem with being listed.
While the sentiment may be buyer beware, there is a need for some form of social responsibility on the part of buyer and seller. Allowing a buyer or seller to stand behind an anonymous name and identification is fraught with problem.
The net has evolved with the use of PayPal and similar services given prior fraudulent behavior. The way to stop this behavior is to insure that users must be socially responsible. The lowest common denominator is not necessarily ethical and so it is necessary to implement policies that require a minimum of honesty.
At the end of the day, we are our brother's keeper, by choice and to maintain our way of life. I too believe in as little law as possible but as new ways of working with the public emerge, new ways of maintaining the integrity of our ways are needed for the common good.
It is not much to ask a person who offers something for sale to the public to present his legal identification so that he can be held responsible for his actions.
One way to insure a minimum of integrity is to state that AZB's policy is that all transactions should go through PayPal. PayPal requires full identification and bank information. One does not need to subscibe to PayPal and can use their credit card information to make a transaction. If you are on the net and have a credit / debit card then you can proceed. If you do not have these minimal requirements then one wonders if the person is fiscally responsible. This policy will not stop all frauds but it will be a beginning.
In my family's several thousand transactions on the net most people are responsible and have access to PayPal or a related service. We did have a problem a few years ago when a person bought a used $300.00 wood planer and then said that they did not receive it. Their money was returned and we later tracked through the US Mail that their machine was probably delivered to their door step. Now all expensive items are signed for before they are delivered.
I have sold seven ball polishers through AZB to date five were prepaid through PayPal. One of the two remaining people paid by check before the machine was sent. The last person said he would pay when he received it and we had to dog him to get the money. It took awhile but he paid through PayPal with no problem when our understanding was explained.
One person bought a ball polisher that was damaged in shipment and it did not work. After a few attempts to fix it through emails he returned it for a full refund through PayPal. I fixed the machine and sent it back to him as a gift because he trusted us and he got let down. A few weeks later the fellow sent me a payment through PayPal anyway because he knew that we had time and money invested in the project.
After making the first batch of machines I learned that the handle was too short on three of the machine and these were replaced.
We have sold at least four portable counters through the forum using PayPal and there have been no problems with any of the transactions.
Using PayPal and a publicly stated guarantee has been helpful. In addition it is very easy to contact me at home, by phone or through my web site. I think that the net is like a telephone book and there is or should be no problem with being listed.
While the sentiment may be buyer beware, there is a need for some form of social responsibility on the part of buyer and seller. Allowing a buyer or seller to stand behind an anonymous name and identification is fraught with problem.
The net has evolved with the use of PayPal and similar services given prior fraudulent behavior. The way to stop this behavior is to insure that users must be socially responsible. The lowest common denominator is not necessarily ethical and so it is necessary to implement policies that require a minimum of honesty.
At the end of the day, we are our brother's keeper, by choice and to maintain our way of life. I too believe in as little law as possible but as new ways of working with the public emerge, new ways of maintaining the integrity of our ways are needed for the common good.
It is not much to ask a person who offers something for sale to the public to present his legal identification so that he can be held responsible for his actions.
One way to insure a minimum of integrity is to state that AZB's policy is that all transactions should go through PayPal. PayPal requires full identification and bank information. One does not need to subscibe to PayPal and can use their credit card information to make a transaction. If you are on the net and have a credit / debit card then you can proceed. If you do not have these minimal requirements then one wonders if the person is fiscally responsible. This policy will not stop all frauds but it will be a beginning.
In my family's several thousand transactions on the net most people are responsible and have access to PayPal or a related service. We did have a problem a few years ago when a person bought a used $300.00 wood planer and then said that they did not receive it. Their money was returned and we later tracked through the US Mail that their machine was probably delivered to their door step. Now all expensive items are signed for before they are delivered.
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one of the rubs
One of the rubs with lynching the seller when things go wrong. I typically receive two to six packages a year dropped off at my doorstep by mistake often with totally different addresses. Likewise I have packages sent to me dropped off at neighbor's or other locations by accident occasionally. I also discovered that the UPS driver could electronically "sign" my signature if I had ever signed their little box before!
Maybe one package in hundreds goes to the wrong place but it happens. You want to ban the seller from selling and file charges with the police if the buyer doesn't get what he wanted. Ultimately the shipper should have insured the package and included that in the shipping charges but if the shipping company shows a package as received they won't pay off.
Thousands of transactions a year on AZB, this is a real scenario. I had it happen to me repeatedly when I only received maybe a hundred packages a year. Long distance transactions incur some risk for both parties. If both are private individuals or one is a private individual and the other is a struggling small business then "the customer is always right" may not be practical.
One of my packages that was shown as delivered that I hadn't received was over three thousand dollars. Another package that I "received" and "electronically signed for" was over two thousand dollars. The driver pried open an unused back door of an outbuilding and placed the package there because it was raining. That was an unused door with shelves and much stuff stacked in front of it on the other side. I reported the package undelivered and had quite a stink about that one. I could have been months or years finding that package. I would have been acting in total good faith had I claimed I didn't receive the package. Would the seller have been banned and turned over to the police had this been an AZB deal? Two grand is serious money to many of us.
Just a few thoughts. Things in this world aren't nearly as black and white as some see them.
Hu
JoeW said:
One of the rubs with lynching the seller when things go wrong. I typically receive two to six packages a year dropped off at my doorstep by mistake often with totally different addresses. Likewise I have packages sent to me dropped off at neighbor's or other locations by accident occasionally. I also discovered that the UPS driver could electronically "sign" my signature if I had ever signed their little box before!
Maybe one package in hundreds goes to the wrong place but it happens. You want to ban the seller from selling and file charges with the police if the buyer doesn't get what he wanted. Ultimately the shipper should have insured the package and included that in the shipping charges but if the shipping company shows a package as received they won't pay off.
Thousands of transactions a year on AZB, this is a real scenario. I had it happen to me repeatedly when I only received maybe a hundred packages a year. Long distance transactions incur some risk for both parties. If both are private individuals or one is a private individual and the other is a struggling small business then "the customer is always right" may not be practical.
One of my packages that was shown as delivered that I hadn't received was over three thousand dollars. Another package that I "received" and "electronically signed for" was over two thousand dollars. The driver pried open an unused back door of an outbuilding and placed the package there because it was raining. That was an unused door with shelves and much stuff stacked in front of it on the other side. I reported the package undelivered and had quite a stink about that one. I could have been months or years finding that package. I would have been acting in total good faith had I claimed I didn't receive the package. Would the seller have been banned and turned over to the police had this been an AZB deal? Two grand is serious money to many of us.
Just a few thoughts. Things in this world aren't nearly as black and white as some see them.
Hu
Although anything can help, you can't simply rely on the Itrader feedback, and the green rep system. All of that can be manipulated.
What we need is an ombudsman to send information on bad deals, or potentially bad deals to, who keeps it private until a "3-strikes and your out" rule is invoked. There seems to be more attempted rip-offs that actual rip-offs. Nobody wants to out a guy if they weren't actually burned, so a lot of potentially bad deals go unreported. The other thing the ombudsman can do is look for and take information on people with multiple usernames. That is a big problem and should not be allowed. A lot of problems could be avoided if only one username is allowed. jmo
What we need is an ombudsman to send information on bad deals, or potentially bad deals to, who keeps it private until a "3-strikes and your out" rule is invoked. There seems to be more attempted rip-offs that actual rip-offs. Nobody wants to out a guy if they weren't actually burned, so a lot of potentially bad deals go unreported. The other thing the ombudsman can do is look for and take information on people with multiple usernames. That is a big problem and should not be allowed. A lot of problems could be avoided if only one username is allowed. jmo