How do these diamond tables play so badly? vid

RKC can better speak to this but the Rails need to be modified to fit Artemis cushions. If that didn’t happen then your table can’t possibly be playing correctly. Going back probably will normalize the table.
I did mention in the post that I had my rails modified. That would include sub-rails re-cut for K55 (K66 intercontinental I believe, Artemis flips the k55/k66 around on the intercontinentals for some reason) instead of the original Monarch Superspeeds and sub-rails extended for 4 3/8"ths corners. Then installed Simonis 860, I don't think I missed anything that shoulda been done.
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Brunswick still makes tables. Not all are old. Reports of 30 year old tables with original rubber on them playing perfect to this day. Brunswick produced its own cushions. Specific to its tables. In other words the table was designed originally from the ground up with the intent of using a certain cushion. Those tables have been the gold standard for a century. The biggest issue with Gold Crowns is the setup and maintenance. Also the fact that pocket size and angles have changed over the years and Bruswick didn't stay up to date with the changing industry. No one could standardize the pockets. So you ended up with shimmed, inconsistent pocket sizes and angles all around the country. In order to get current angles and size of pockets resized it required significant modifications to the table after ownership. So the slow death of Brunswick is a bummer. One thing about Diamond is they are at least consistent. Good or bad.


I can believe there are Brunswick tables 30 years old that have good rubber , in fact I own one, but you won't be finding many in pool rooms. The places I have played at , worked at , are usually frankentables.
Frankentables because the original owner 50 or 60 years ago bought 10 to 20 tables from a dealer all of the same make. usually GC 1's and 2' s and put them in a room. They get recovered a bunch of times and by a bunch of differently skilled people. { Less skilled as time goes by. The parts start getting mixed together and . 20 years later the guy dies and sells the tables , they then sell 10 to one person and 10 to another, they recover them for 20 years themselves or some local guy that fixes stuff and now they are mix and match tables, the frame from one of the originals, rails from another, slates from two or 3 different tables and some of the slates have sat flat on an uneven garage or basement floor for several years at some point in their life, and some slates are crowned. I know this happened because I was watching a guy recover a pool room with 10 tables and I don't think any of them was a completely original table. He and a partner had come in and taken half of them apart to speed up the process and even after he checked all the rails and frames and slates from the other 5 , he was still missing some original parts and had parts from other tables . Can you think of any other way this could happen?
I also knew an owner and I am sure most of them did this, several tables had bad rails , but one rail would be much worse than the others on each one so, to save money, he orders 1 set of rubber for the rails, and replaces 1 cushion on each table not the whole set. The fact that you can even play a game on most of the tables that have been pool rooms, is a testament, to how well they were made originally.
 
There was two basic cloths everyone played on Pryor to the mid 80's. Either Stevens 22oz Superweave or Brunco1 BOTH of which were a woven woolen cloth, and NOT the thick cloth produced by the MALI, WARREN, CHARLES HOUSE, or any all the other woolen cloth manufacturers back in that time, and NOT like the stupid IPT cloth either, that was the worst cloth ever made! Now look at the cloth industry today, THERE'S your answer!!!

Thank you.
I started playing in the mid 60s, so I somewhat remember the difference in the cloth. It took me about 20 years being a working father to learn any of the nuances of kicking and banking , so I don't have the memory of how that changed , but if you say that is why, then that is the answer.

I understand people disagreeing with you, even though, you would think anyone who hasn't done this for a living, as long as you have , would at least have respect for your opinion.
But they don't , in fact, they seem to think that if they back up each other that somehow trumps reality.
Oh well , Orwell told us it was coming, I would love to know how he knew.
Maybe he guessed, and his friends backed him up.
 
ALL Gold Crowns sold new have ALWAYS had a higher retail price than a Diamond!!!! In fact, NEW valleys sell for more than a Diamond bar table!!!
And I’ve heard some real bad things about the build quality of current gold crowns. That kills me to type. I may prefer diamonds but Brunswick used to be the standard and now seem to be owned by a larger company that doesn’t care. It’s just a name.
 
From Badboys Texas State Championships. Blue label 7ft Diamonds. Incredibly short rails even at slow speeds. Cue ball doesn't slow down much. I assume rails were replaced or something wrong with cloth install? Never seen anything like it on a Diamond

video link

To be clear... I love Diamond tables! Trying to figure out how they are off
Diamonds are the worst table that ever existed for pool, they literally killed the game for a very long time. I remember it all started in 2002 or 2003 when they started making their campaign by promoting themselves with putting their shitty a$$ tables in every major tournament and the pros were forced to play with them...even back then I knew the tables were so bad but the issue kept going because some sheeps kept seeing them in every tournament and they thought that they're the tables to be played on "They don't know there's something called ads" So pool halls and other people started putting diamonds in their places too....

Diamonds make all players shoot softly and cueball keep running non-stop, nowadays you don't need any stroke to move the cueball because you don't have to move the cueball, it will move by itself....you have guys with BAD stroke and weak punches do wonders in diamond where in other real table they would struggle to actually move the cueball

The best tables that ever existed are Brunswick and Goldcrown. We should continue playing in these classics they're so good even tournaments were more enjoyable to watch with Brunswick.
 
Diamonds are the worst table that ever existed for pool, they literally killed the game for a very long time. I remember it all started in 2002 or 2003 when they started making their campaign by promoting themselves with putting their shitty a$$ tables in every major tournament and the pros were forced to play with them...even back then I knew the tables were so bad but the issue kept going because some sheeps kept seeing them in every tournament and they thought that they're the tables to be played on "They don't know there's something called ads" So pool halls and other people started putting diamonds in their places too....

Diamonds make all players shoot softly and cueball keep running non-stop, nowadays you don't need any stroke to move the cueball because you don't have to move the cueball, it will move by itself....you have guys with BAD stroke and weak punches do wonders in diamond where in other real table they would struggle to actually move the cueball

The best tables that ever existed are Brunswick and Goldcrown. We should continue playing in these classics they're so good even tournaments were more enjoyable to watch with Brunswick.
The cloth has more to do with the speed than the table itself. If Diamond was that piss poor of a table Matchroom wouldn't use them , they would use all Rasson tables as they use them as well. The pros would also complain.

I got nothing against a good GC but they are not what they used to be and even the the fit and finish was never that great.
 
Diamonds are the worst table that ever existed for pool, they literally killed the game for a very long time. I remember it all started in 2002 or 2003 when they started making their campaign by promoting themselves with putting their shitty a$$ tables in every major tournament and the pros were forced to play with them...even back then I knew the tables were so bad but the issue kept going because some sheeps kept seeing them in every tournament and they thought that they're the tables to be played on "They don't know there's something called ads" So pool halls and other people started putting diamonds in their places too....

Diamonds make all players shoot softly and cueball keep running non-stop, nowadays you don't need any stroke to move the cueball because you don't have to move the cueball, it will move by itself....you have guys with BAD stroke and weak punches do wonders in diamond where in other real table they would struggle to actually move the cueball

The best tables that ever existed are Brunswick and Goldcrown. We should continue playing in these classics they're so good even tournaments were more enjoyable to watch with Brunswick.
Well hell, all you need to do is call up Escalade and tell them how you feel, I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms!
 
The cloth has more to do with the speed than the table itself. If Diamond was that piss poor of a table Matchroom wouldn't use them , they would use all Rasson tables as they use them as well. The pros would also complain.

I got nothing against a good GC but they are not what they used to be and even the the fit and finish was never that great.
You're kinda off, matchroom would use anything that gives them $$ -- its all about $$ here.

And I do acknowledge cloth has to do with the speed of the balls but also the table plays a massive role in it, especially how the rails play...in diamonds they play like crap, the pockets are crap, and the speed of the rails and table will be super-crap adding up all things into perspective.

Matchroom loves $$ more than loving to grow pool, if they want to grow the game of pool they'd bring back the classics such as
1- Green cloth.
2- Classical ball colors.
3- Goldcrown tables.
4- Normal racks (Not this shady paper racks).
5- Classic cueball without the stupid "red dots".
6- Players should wear classic ties or bowties.
7- the arena on the tv table should be massive and the crowd should be seated at least 10 meters away (Not like the new arena where ppl surrounding the players and table like crazy make the game look so cheap).

I know I have more suggestions but why should I bother, ppl won't listen to me and then there are other people who would have different opinions.
 
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I actually just emailed them again 3 days ago to get back into the pro game that they abandoned 20 years ago. No reply.
No, THEY didn't abandon pool, THEY are not BRUNSWICK anymore, didn't you get the message, Brunswick SOLD off their billiards business several years back, then was SOLD again to Escalade Sports almost 2 years ago. Escalade Sports don't support pool, they SELL sporting equipment, like pool tables as well as Archery, cornhole, and quite a few other sports equipment!

So, you're barking at a dead horse buddy!!!
 
You're kinda off, matchroom would use anything that gives them $$ -- its all about $$ here.

And I do acknowledge cloth has to do with the speed of the balls but also the table plays a massive role in it, especially how the rails play...in diamonds they play like crap, the pockets are crap, and the speed of the rails and table will be super-crap adding up all things into perspective.

Matchroom loves $$ more than loving to grow pool, if they want to grow the game of pool they'd bring back the classics such as
1- Green cloth.
2- Classical ball colors.
3- Goldcrown tables.
4- Normal racks (Not this shady paper racks).
5- Classic cueball without the stupid "red dots".
6- Players should wear classic ties or bowties.
7- the arena on the tv table should be massive and the crowd should be seated at least 10 meters away (Not like the new arena where ppl surrounding the players and table like crazy make the game look so cheap).

I know I have more suggestions but why should I bother, ppl won't listen to me and then there are other people who would have different opinions.
I Think your in the wrong generation.
I've never cared for green cloth, I prefer the blue or grey, easier on the eyes.
Goldcrowns would need some proper updating and fix the fit and finish and QC problems
Ball colors I can get behind that
Racks I got nothing against the template racks
What is wrong with the cue balls?
I think having to dress like going to church or a wedding to play pool is a stupid idea. Stick with snooker.
 
You're kinda off, matchroom would use anything that gives them $$ -- its all about $$ here.

And I do acknowledge cloth has to do with the speed of the balls but also the table plays a massive role in it, especially how the rails play...in diamonds they play like crap, the pockets are crap, and the speed of the rails and table will be super-crap adding up all things into perspective.

Matchroom loves $$ more than loving to grow pool, if they want to grow the game of pool they'd bring back the classics such as
1- Green cloth.
2- Classical ball colors.
Both of which have been criticized roundly in the past for making it extremely hard to see which balls are where on the table, when streaming or on television.

3- Goldcrown tables.
Yeahhhh... No thanks.

4- Normal racks (Not this shady paper racks).
Which slowed the game down and resulted in a ton of clusters. Also, one player or the other often gets the chance to manipulate the rack to their favor, whether rack your own, or rack for opponent. You hate template racks because you probably never did the work to build a repeatable break.

5- Classic cueball without the stupid "red dots".
The entire point of this was to make it easier to see what english the player is putting on the ball, and they are fantastic for this, and increases enjoyability of watching the matches.

6- Players should wear classic ties or bowties.
Mmmm, maybe. Maybe the only remotely helpful suggestion you have made so far.

7- the arena on the tv table should be massive and the crowd should be seated at least 10 meters away (Not like the new arena where ppl surrounding the players and table like crazy make the game look so cheap).
This is the way it was set up at the European Open Championship, and fans HATED it. I took my wife up for the tournament, and ended up leaving the same day to drive back home (2 1/2 hours), because it was difficult to really watch the matches.

I know I have more suggestions but why should I bother, ppl won't listen to me and then there are other people who would have different opinions.
Well, they're generally not gonna listen, be ause so many of these are hot takes that in so many words, equates to "I want pool to be exactly what it was when I was a young man, and I want the tables to play exactly like they did when I was competitive."

I grew up playing on Gold Crowns too. The difference is, at 48, is that I am still competitive. Gold Crowns back in the day tended to have slower cloth, so they were hard to break and make a ball in unless you had a VERY good break. As such, more balls stayed on the table, and the layouts were more random, so THAT part of the game was good, from a player's perspective, but NOT from a viewer's perspective.

Fast forward to the modern "Diamondized" game. Faster cloth, faster rails, smaller pockets to make up for the rails/cloth, results in table layouts just as challenging as playing Gold Crowns. I was watching a bunch of European Open matches on the 4" pockets, and noted that the nature of the game kinda reminded me of playing on Gold Crowns when I was in my early 20's. Less balls made, and 1 ball not just sitting up in front of a pocket off the break. Requiring one to play safe off the lowest ball right after the break, sending the CB multiple rails to safety as the first shot after the break. Dumb players who shoot dumb shots get punished pretty severely. Players are forced to LEARN to play the game properly, because despite what you say, when taken as a whole, it is NOT easier to play on Diamonds as compared to older Gold Crowns.

And as far as "making the game look cheap"? Playing on old arse tables on TV/stream is what makes the game look cheap.
 
No, THEY didn't abandon pool, THEY are not BRUNSWICK anymore, didn't you get the message, Brunswick SOLD off their billiards business several years back, then was SOLD again to Escalade Sports almost 2 years ago. Escalade Sports don't support pool, they SELL sporting equipment, like pool tables as well as Archery, cornhole, and quite a few other sports equipment!

So, you're barking at a dead horse buddy!!!
What are you smoking man? We all know “Brunswick Billiards” has been sold several times over the years. As long as they are still selling tables, it would be in their best interest to sell many tables. It does not matter who their corporate parent changes to. I even bought Escalade stock when they acquired Brunswick Billiards. I just sold it a couple months ago for a loss as it doesn’t seem they are doing anything whatsoever to advance the brand.

I emailed the contact us email on Brunswickbilliards.com. I also private messaged the Brunswick billiards Facebook page maybe 4 times in the past 2 years. All have gone unanswered.

Your tirades don’t make any sense.
 
What are you smoking man? We all know “Brunswick Billiards” has been sold several times over the years. As long as they are still selling tables, it would be in their best interest to sell many tables. It does not matter who their corporate parent changes to. I even bought Escalade stock when they acquired Brunswick Billiards. I just sold it a couple months ago for a loss as it doesn’t seem they are doing anything whatsoever to advance the brand.

I emailed the contact us email on Brunswickbilliards.com. I also private messaged the Brunswick billiards Facebook page maybe 4 times in the past 2 years. All have gone unanswered.

Your tirades don’t make any sense.
You basically repeated exactly what he said, using different words.
 
The only thing I can figure to warrant his tirade is he thought I emailed Brunswick Corporation, the boating company.
 
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