How Do We Aim?

[8pack]

I imagine these "helping" effects of putting spin on the cue ball for nearly-straight-in shots (like that in your pic) are only for fairly close shots -- e.g. a couple diamonds or so.

But crank out that distance to a longer shot ("longer" = distance between cue ball and object ball, and between object ball and pocket), and the "beneficial" effects of the spin will be negated, as the real effects of spin start to take over.

-Sean

Sean i think when you stay at a certain speed(not slow)the throw effect is not a lot.I play a lot of long shots that are almost straight in this way.
I make sure i hit it with good speed straight at the ball.I also play with a 314 to which really helps me.

 

[sfleinen]

Even on longer shots he uses 1/2 tip of outside when possible. He says then you know if you miss it's because of speed. Too hard and you will undercut the shot, not hard enough and you overcut it.
Get the speed right and it goes in everytime. Again, this is how he plays and thinks.

Very unique. I mean, I get it, and I understand why it "works," it's just so foreign to me to put spin on the cue ball to make up for any inaccuracies in aiming.

But like they say, to each his/her own! It obviously works very well for Mike!

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Sean i think when you stay at a certain speed(not slow)the throw effect is not a lot.I play a lot of long shots that are almost straight in this way.
I make sure i hit it with good speed straight at the ball.I also play with a 314 to which really helps me.

Yep, I'm sure when you (royal "you") get this technique down pat, you can kind of "feel" how much you can get away with it.

Having an LD shaft helps as well -- I'm sure a normal solid/one-piece maple shaft that deflects normally (such as what I use) the "beneficial" effect is decreased.

Wanna read something interesting, that may or may not be related? In his column for Billiards Digest, Bob Jewett wrote an article entitled "stroke fiddling" -- where he explored the reasons why certain pros use such tremendously long bridges:

http://sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2011r.pdf
(Go to Page 7 -- the "Stroke Fiddling" article)

In it, he explains why the deflection of the shaft is cancelled out by the sheer length of the bridge. Check it out.

A lot of the "beneficial" effects of using spin like this are actually easily explainable. And quite interesting, too!

-Sean

 

[Shaky1]

Very unique. I mean, I get it, and I understand why it "works," it's just so foreign to me to put spin on the cue ball to make up for any inaccuracies in aiming.

But like they say, to each his/her own! It obviously works very well for Mike!

-Sean

the half tip eliminates ball throw for the most part. It is an interesting way to play. This I guess is why he likes to use the rails as well. the ball has running english most of the time. It is more predictable coming off the rails and you can use less force to get from place to place.

 

[8pack]

Yep, I'm sure when you (royal "you") get this technique down pat, you can kind of "feel" how much you can get away with it.

Having an LD shaft helps as well -- I'm sure a normal solid/one-piece maple shaft that deflects normally (such as what I use) the "beneficial" effect is decreased.

Wanna read something interesting, that may or may not be related? In his column for Billiards Digest, Bob Jewett wrote an article entitled "stroke fiddling" -- where he explored the reasons why certain pros use such tremendously long bridges:

http://sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2011r.pdf
(Go to Page 7 -- the "Stroke Fiddling" article)

In it, he explains why the deflection of the shaft is cancelled out by the sheer length of the bridge. Check it out.

A lot of the "beneficial" effects of using spin like this are actually easily explainable. And quite interesting, too!

-Sean

I didn't know that,I'll have to check it out.Maybe I'll go back to shooting with my standard shafts.I can see it now ,bridging clear back to the joint on certain shots.:grin: Thanks

 

[AtLarge]

... In his column for Billiards Digest, Bob Jewett wrote an article entitled "stroke fiddling" -- where he explored the reasons why certain pros use such tremendously long bridges:

http://sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2011r.pdf
(Go to Page 7 -- the "Stroke Fiddling" article)

In it, he explains why the deflection of the shaft is cancelled out by the sheer length of the bridge. Check it out. ...

Sean -- Just a follow-up on Bob's article. He isn't saying that a really long bridge length cancels out squirt. All he's really talking about is that if your bridge length matches the natural pivot point of your shaft, then the squirt resulting from an unintentional off-center hit compensates for the off-center hit, and the CB goes straight down the originally intended line of aim. This is the same principle used for back-hand english.

Each shaft has its own natural pivot point, with "LD" shafts normally having a longer pivot point than regular-deflection maple shafts. That means, for Bob's principle or for BHE to work, the bridge needs to be farther from the tip with an LD shaft than with a regular maple shaft. But if you go too far back with the bridge, you go beyond that natural pivot point and you actually undercompensate for the squirt. Bridge too close to the tip and you overcompensate for the squirt.

Edit: This principle works best for fairly short shots at a fairly crisp speed. For longer and/or slower shots, you may need to bridge behind the natural pivot point for effective squirt compensation.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[Sigel] does not like to use center ball. He calls center ball a knuckle ball.

He may mean that, like a knuckle ball, trying to hit the CB centerball can produce a less predictable outcome. This is mostly true with straight shots with no sidespin, which are most sensitive to throw caused by unintentional sidespin. It's less true with cut shots.

By the same principle, adding outside sidespin to eliminate throw on cut shots can be dangerous because adding slightly too much or too little can create more throw than you're trying to avoid.


pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

8pack:
Just wondering do you do this on all your shots?

Me:
Do what?

8pack:
This.lol

Me (from before):
I aim contact point-to-contact point, so my target is a point (the OB contact point). But I have to hit that point with another point (the CB contact point) which I can't see. Because I can't see the CB point, I can't actually "aim" it directly at the OB point - I have to construct a "shot picture" (an amount of CB/OB overlap, a doubled offset from OB center, etc., etc.) that I calculate (or estimate or guess or whatever) will make the CB point hit the OB point.

This isn't a description of an aiming technique; it's a description of what we all have to work with when aiming and how that limits what can be done.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We can see centerball on both the CB and OB, but we only aim them at each other on straight shots. On all cut shots we're unable to see one thing or another - we're aiming CB center at some estimated target or CB contact point (which we can't see) at OB contact point (assuming we can "see" that).

pj
chgo

Not Dead Ted:
On a 30-degree shot, one can see both the CB center and OB edge, can't they?

Sure, but how do you know when a cut is 30 degrees? I think that in practice it looks like just another cut angle in the continuum of cut angles and you aim it like any other shot, not by purposely aiming center-to-edge.

pj
chgo

 

[Not Dead Ted]

Sure, but how do you know when a cut is 30 degrees? I think that in practice it looks like just another cut angle in the continuum of cut angles and you aim it like any other shot, not by purposely aiming center-to-edge.

pj
chgo

I realize that I am in the minority, but I actually do estimate the cut angle. A 28 degree cut is distinctly different to me than a 30 or 33 and I choose my aim point accordingly. It is true that such angle estimations have an error that increases with the magnitude of the cut angle, but my point is that aiming a set CB point (typically center) to a specific point on the OB is a legit approach, relatively immune to "feel".

 

[8pack]

This isn't a description of an aiming technique; it's a description of what we all have to work with when aiming and how that limits what can be done.

pj
chgo

Sorry Sir,I thought you was describing how you aim.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A 28 degree cut is distinctly different to me than a 30 or 33 and I choose my aim point accordingly.

What "aim points" do you choose for cuts from 1-28 degrees and 33-90 degrees? Do you change your aiming technique just for 30-degree cuts? I think you aim them all the same way and 30 degrees is just another one, even if you can really "see" 30 degrees accurately.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What "aim points" do you choose for cuts from 1-28 degrees and 33-90 degrees? Do you change your aiming technique just for 30-degree cuts? I think you aim them all the same way and 30 degrees is just another one, even if you can really "see" 30 degrees accurately.

pj
chgo

Now that those infected with the Aiming Delusion Virus (ADV) are quarantined and the general population is more or less safe I can take off my hazmat suit and relax a little.

Believe it or not, I have no interest in even looking over there, so have a party. Nice knowin' ya.

pj
chgo



---
From someone who vowed to never show up to the aiming forum, you're here quite often.

You remind me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zh1M3wwdSI

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Now that those infected with the Aiming Delusion Virus (ADV) are quarantined and the general population is more or less safe I can take off my hazmat suit and relax a little.

Believe it or not, I have no interest in even looking over there, so have a party. Nice knowin' ya.

pj
chgo


---
From someone who vowed to never show up to the aiming forum, you're here quite often.

Surprised me a little too. I'm still not interested in much on the aiming forum, but these days there's even less of interest on the main forum.

You remind me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zh1M3wwdSI

Until you learn to express yourself in words, I guess links to YouTube will have to do for you. Spend a lot of time there, huh?

pj
chgo

 

[Not Dead Ted]

What "aim points" do you choose for cuts from 1-28 degrees and 33-90 degrees? Do you change your aiming technique just for 30-degree cuts? I think you aim them all the same way and 30 degrees is just another one, even if you can really "see" 30 degrees accurately.

pj
chgo

For 0-30 degrees 1mm off centerball per degree of cut angle.

For 31-60 degrees, .8mm per degree over 30 (or 4mm for every 5 degrees)

You get some help by knowing things like a 15 degree cut clears the felt by about 4mm and is at 5:00 o'clock or 7:00 o'clock. Standard paperclip is 5mm wide, large 10mm. Thickness of a nickel is 2mm, a penny 1.5mm.

Not for everyone, but I just can't find the inner shot circle about which to pivot.

 

[dr_dave]

I personally feel cte is silly and had a cte user show me how it works just out of morbid curiosity.
I am an anti-"purchasing an aiming system" guy but I'm also a pro "lets stop having the same argument over and over" guy.

If your threads save some people money then keep posting I suppose but damn...

Did you really mean DAM? :grin-square:

Now the aiming system thread is complete ... it contains ads for Pro-One and Perfect Aim, it stirred up the CTE guys, and it has a link to DAM. What more could one ask for?

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Yep, I'm sure when you (royal "you") get this technique down pat, you can kind of "feel" how much you can get away with it.

Having an LD shaft helps as well -- I'm sure a normal solid/one-piece maple shaft that deflects normally (such as what I use) the "beneficial" effect is decreased.

Wanna read something interesting, that may or may not be related? In his column for Billiards Digest, Bob Jewett wrote an article entitled "stroke fiddling" -- where he explored the reasons why certain pros use such tremendously long bridges:

http://sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2011r.pdf
(Go to Page 7 -- the "Stroke Fiddling" article)

In it, he explains why the deflection of the shaft is cancelled out by the sheer length of the bridge. Check it out.

A lot of the "beneficial" effects of using spin like this are actually easily explainable. And quite interesting, too!

An LD shaft has a long natural pivot length, so a long bridge is beneficial on most shots. The benefits are the same as those provided by the back-hand English (BHE) squirt-compensation method. However, these benefits apply only for shots of certain distances, speeds, and cue elevations; and conditions (cloth slickness) also have an effect. For demonstrations and more info, see:

squirt, swerve, and throw effects
aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw
shaft natural pivot length
backhand English (BHE) and front-hand English (FHE) resource page​

Regards,
Dave

 

[justadub]

Did you really mean DAM? :grin-square:

Now the aiming system thread is complete ... it contains ads for Pro-One and Perfect Aim, it stirred up the CTE guys, and it has a link to DAM. What more could one ask for?

Regards,
Dave

And now it has a lot of links to your site, too.

Just like old times. Same as it ever was....

 

[C.Milian]

We make it a subconscious thing through repetition. At a high level, most of the perceive action that was once false information, is no longer holding us back from proper execution.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We make it a subconscious thing through repetition.

I think aiming is always a subconscious thing - we get better at using it through repetition.

pj
chgo