How do you assess someones speed???

You watch everything they do and listen to everything they say, assume they are better than they are leading you to believe; it does take a long time, a lot of "street smarts" and boatloads of time around high level play to be able to do this well, spotting the fish is a hell of a lot easier than beating the hustler out of his cheese he is trying to bait you with and walking away.

For the most part the poster who says "form doen't lie" is correct, even for those guys who are trying to hide their skill it is not so easy to do playing with someone who is good at "sizing up" a player. The best I saw was this roadie who had his butt like 1ft 1.5ft in the air, he was looking for a $ game and using a house cue; I took this guys cheese and walked away laughing at him saying "you gotta be kidding me! Do you really think I don't see your ability?"

So someone in the poolroom called Roufus a local hotshot to come down and play this kid for some big $ like $500 a set I think if memory serves, I said "your stupid that kid is going to tear Roufus a new A$$(*&^." And tony says to me "Wanna bet?" and I say "I sure do, I will bet the $20 I took off that kid", and Tony says "ok think about what you're saying, a fool and his $ are soon well you know".

This is implying that if I took $ off him what do you think Roufus will do? What Tony didn't understand is that it was cheese, I said to him "why dont you think about it, a 25yo kid comes into a poolroom grabs a house cue asks someone to play for $ with his butt 2ft in the air, loses and then asks for the local shark to play for big $!!!, were you born yesterday?" Well sure enough for $500 a set his butt came down and when he missed if he missed (that was rare) it was a lockup in jail safe. Tony's jaw dropped to the floor I took the $20 out of his hand and bought him a beer.
 
bbb said:
im not talking about bangers
but if short stop is 90 and efren/shane/scott frost depending on game is 100
and a large number of guys that are 80
these are all guys that can run racks
and arent likely to do something stupid
so for the upper level guys
how you decide what kind of spot you can give someone
what clues help to distinguish the levels on the upper end??
for those who dont want to say in public
you can pm me:)
Click to expand...

In 9 and 10 balls i do not think sport works unless they go really low, say the 4 or 5 and wild 9, one miss they run the table

In one pocket it is different, in my opinion no more than 5 balls on your side and 10 or 11 their side maybe more.
 
Watch the cue ball.A players true stroke can not be hidden.pay attention to how the ball hugs the carpet when a top player strokes it.
Good players smooth the balls into the pocket regardless of speed.
Understudies punch the ball's in the hole.the smooth stroke get the cash.


bill
 
vasilios said:
Watch the cue ball.A players true stroke can not be hidden.pay attention to how the ball hugs the carpet when a top player strokes it.
Good players smooth the balls into the pocket regardless of speed.
Understudies punch the ball's in the hole.the smooth stroke get the cash.


bill
Click to expand...

i add, watch them how they break cluster of balls, especially one pocket, only very experience players can do that well, and run tables. A skill i am having problem with for more than 30 years of play, just started to get a little success in.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Personally, i think that to be able to pick out high level players, you have to have played at a high level yourself, or you have to have a tremendous amount of experience in the pool world, where you witnessed high level competition of various games.

That's way, it's easier to distinguish between what are relatively easy shots, vs much more difficult shot, as well as easy vs difficult position shots.

I see this happen in the pool room ALL the time.
Plenty of banger and novice player, think they know what everyone's speed is or can tell, when in reality, they haven't a clue. (but try telling them that)

They really have a difficult time grasping exactly how hard something might be. But if you were to ask them, they firmly believe that they are the greatest handicappers/assessors of speed that exist in the universe, where i like to leave those things to people with more experience/ability.

Do we want to distinguish between games and pressures?

You have some 9ball champs, that blow at 1pocket.
Some one pocket champs that blow at 14.1.
And some 14.1 players, that blow at both 9ball, and 1pocket.

And how do we know that this guy running out from everywhere, is going to run out from everywhere when gambling for $2, or in tournament play?

Determining someone's speed is a very intricate process.

And i don't believe that everyone possesses the qualifications/background to do that accurately.
Click to expand...

It Seems you have a good handle on your game skills..:grin:
Think I'd want the seven if we ever hooked up.
 
I used to kind of hand around with a couple of brothers that could play real sporty. I would say one was a real strong short stop and the other wasn't much behind. They had a second sense for sizing up someone pretty quickly as they had been gamblers all their lives. Mostly in the south, from Texas to Florida.

One thing is for sure, they weren't fond of getting trapped or out hustled. If a guy came in and wanted to gamble, the first thing they would do is ask the guy "who sent you". They knew someone that wanted to gamble high didn't just walk into the hall by pure luck. They then would ask "what's your name". After the guy told them his name, they would ask for I.D. to make sure he was who he said he was. I saw several guys that wouldn't show I.D. and sure enough, they would make a few phone calls and find out who the guy was and how he played. It's a small pool world with regard to top players, especially with the net and cell phones now days.

I used to love to watch them size someone up, bark and woof for a while, and then play for high $$$. There is an art to sizing up a really good player, and they had years of experience doing just that.

It's kind of like using a circular saw. A finished carpenter can cut a perfectly straight line and make it look easy. A rookie gets up there and the cut is about as straight as a dog's hind leg.:)
 
This is the best post in the thread.

Also, I'll add that I feel that for a large majority of players, that it is hard to clock someone who plays more than 2-3 levels above your speed.


Eric

SUPERSTAR said:
Personally, i think that to be able to pick out high level players, you have to have played at a high level yourself, or you have to have a tremendous amount of experience in the pool world, where you witnessed high level competition of various games.

That's way, it's easier to distinguish between what are relatively easy shots, vs much more difficult shot, as well as easy vs difficult position shots.

I see this happen in the pool room ALL the time.
Plenty of banger and novice player, think they know what everyone's speed is or can tell, when in reality, they haven't a clue. (but try telling them that)

They really have a difficult time grasping exactly how hard something might be. But if you were to ask them, they firmly believe that they are the greatest handicappers/assessors of speed that exist in the universe, where i like to leave those things to people with more experience/ability.

Do we want to distinguish between games and pressures?

You have some 9ball champs, that blow at 1pocket.
Some one pocket champs that blow at 14.1.
And some 14.1 players, that blow at both 9ball, and 1pocket.

And how do we know that this guy running out from everywhere, is going to run out from everywhere when gambling for $2, or in tournament play?

Determining someone's speed is a very intricate process.

And i don't believe that everyone possesses the qualifications/background to do that accurately.
Click to expand...
 
I think you just look at them. I mean look at this guy, he obviously is an accountant and can't run three balls.

IMG_9998.JPG


Of course I heard he learns quick......
 
Personally I have always liked the story in Buddy's book. As I remember it went something like Buddy had a standing offer to give up the 7 ball to anyone he didn't know. He figured that if he didn't know them then they weren't good enough to beat him with the seven. Amazingly he said he beat Louie Roberts three times this way. He said Louie would go out and pump up beating champions and come back and ask if he could still get the 7 and Buddy said sure. Buddy said he couldn't understand why a guy wouldn't think he would get the same weight he already lost with.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Personally, i think that to be able to pick out high level players, you have to have played at a high level yourself, or you have to have a tremendous amount of experience in the pool world, where you witnessed high level competition of various games.

That's way, it's easier to distinguish between what are relatively easy shots, vs much more difficult shot, as well as easy vs difficult position shots.

I see this happen in the pool room ALL the time.
Plenty of banger and novice player, think they know what everyone's speed is or can tell, when in reality, they haven't a clue. (but try telling them that)

They really have a difficult time grasping exactly how hard something might be. But if you were to ask them, they firmly believe that they are the greatest handicappers/assessors of speed that exist in the universe, where i like to leave those things to people with more experience/ability.

Do we want to distinguish between games and pressures?

You have some 9ball champs, that blow at 1pocket.
Some one pocket champs that blow at 14.1.
And some 14.1 players, that blow at both 9ball, and 1pocket.

And how do we know that this guy running out from everywhere, is going to run out from everywhere when gambling for $2, or in tournament play?

Determining someone's speed is a very intricate process.

And i don't believe that everyone possesses the qualifications/background to do that accurately.
Click to expand...

an intricate process indeed.... like "fine wine tasting" :wink:
 
JB Cases said:
Personally I have always liked the story in Buddy's book. As I remember it went something like Buddy had a standing offer to give up the 7 ball to anyone he didn't know. He figured that if he didn't know them then they weren't good enough to beat him with the seven. Amazingly he said he beat Louie Roberts three times this way. He said Louie would go out and pump up beating champions and come back and ask if he could still get the 7 and Buddy said sure. Buddy said he couldn't understand why a guy wouldn't think he would get the same weight he already lost with.
Click to expand...

What did he say! He, he, he.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
Most people just go by a general impression, which is good up to a point, but it's easy to get a false reading if you pay attention to the wrong things.

I mean, we usually take it as a good sign if a player seems confident, like they've been in a thousand big money matches... they have a pretty stroke, they don't seem to rattle... they have that rep as the best in the area... all that intangible stuff leaves a favorable impression.

On the other side of the fence you might have a guy with a short jabby stroke, lots of nervous practice strokes, gets up off his shot a lot, smacks his forehead after every miss, and looks like he couldn't get laid in prison.

But how does any of it translate to hard numbers like racks run, average number of innings needed to finish the game, successful kicks or position errors?

Obviously trying to keep full accustats-style spreadsheets on players is asking a lot. But if I could boil it down to a single number, moneyball-style, I'd look at this: how often do they get out of an open table (assuming 8/9/10b)?

...There are lots of other things a high speed player should be good at, kicking and safeties and whatnot. But I'm willing to bet the guy who gets out of open racks more consistently is always the better player.
 
CreeDo said:
Most people just go by a general impression, which is good up to a point, but it's easy to get a false reading if you pay attention to the wrong things.

I mean, we usually take it as a good sign if a player seems confident, like they've been in a thousand big money matches... they have a pretty stroke, they don't seem to rattle... they have that rep as the best in the area... all that intangible stuff leaves a favorable impression.

On the other side of the fence you might have a guy with a short jabby stroke, lots of nervous practice strokes, gets up off his shot a lot, smacks his forehead after every miss, and looks like he couldn't get laid in prison.

But how does any of it translate to hard numbers like racks run, average number of innings needed to finish the game, successful kicks or position errors?

Obviously trying to keep full accustats-style spreadsheets on players is asking a lot. But if I could boil it down to a single number, moneyball-style, I'd look at this: how often do they get out of an open table (assuming 8/9/10b)?

...There are lots of other things a high speed player should be good at, kicking and safeties and whatnot. But I'm willing to bet the guy who gets out of open racks more consistently is always the better player.
Click to expand...

What you may be overlooking is this person is hiding their true speed. While they are easier to gauge once they are in the match the OP was asking how do you tell BEFORE they lock horns with a player.

I go back to mechanics and table presence or lack there of. I would have been curious as to how CJ would gauge a potential opponent the opposite way since he would have been more likely to give up a spot. How does the road player give back and still win?
 
iusedtoberich said:
I'm just a banger, so take the following with a grain of salt... When comparing high level players, I look at their facial expressions. A player who is in command of the game will be almost expressionless the entire time they play. He's seen it all, nothing surprises him, and he's there to do a job.
Click to expand...

Agreed here. Also, I find that high level players really know the lines well, may opt for a certain kick just because of the way the balls will react... throw a few safeties his way before playing just to see how they think.
 
assessing speed

I am pretty new to this forum , so I thought to post,.........

My real speed is :.................... oh wait ! the little lady with the red stop sign is letting the kids cross now ! :embarrassed2:



Seriously, there is no real way IMO to accurately assess speed of someone you don't know. Some of the "tells" several have listed I have seen A's & AA'S mask easily. It is (to me) more mental than physical. A Shark is going to lull you into a false sense of security. He's had you the moment you walked in. What he doesn't know,(and will find out) is how good You think YOU are. :wink:
 
Knowledge.
Experience
Ability
Observation

and the rarely talked about...

Intuition.

If you are one of those people who have all of these qualities, clocking someone's speed isn't that hard.
If you know what to look for.

Obviously, someone who hasn't even hit a ball, is basically impossible to judge.

But once they are on the table, strengths and weaknesses will jump out to an astute observer, after watching different situations.

Could be mechanics.
Might be their decisions, such as a particular shot, safety, or positional play.
Could even be in how they look at the pattern of the table (difficult or easy) and how they choose to proceed.
Could be their body language before a really difficult shot, or before dogging it.
There are lots of tells.

But you really have to be one of those people that is "in tune", to form the right picture.
 
Take 10 racks of 10 ball, Break and run out. Go through the racks until you miss or scratch. Count all the balls pocketed.
Pro- 70+
Open/Shortstop -60-69
A- 50-59
B-40-49
C-30
D-20
Below 20- APA 3 or 4....or something like that
When your looking for a game I would always watch the room, you can gage after awhile where you think someone fits on here.
 
When I lived Tulsa the first thing they did was look at your license plate, (not kidding) and if you were from out of state they assume your a 10.
 
bbb said:
im not talking about bangers
but if short stop is 90 and efren/shane/scott frost depending on game is 100
and a large number of guys that are 80
these are all guys that can run racks
and arent likely to do something stupid
so for the upper level guys
how you decide what kind of spot you can give someone
what clues help to distinguish the levels on the upper end??
for those who dont want to say in public
you can pm me:)
Click to expand...

If you're GIVING weight to upper level players you probably already have a good idea on how to gauge their speed, no?

A couple of things I always looked for (in gauging anyone's speed) is paying attention to those critical situations - how often they make shots they HAVE to make and how often they get shape when shape is difficult or critical and they really need to. Are they almost always on the correct side and do they have the speed control to get the correct angles in these important situations when they really need to get be there?
 
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mattb said:
What you may be overlooking is this person is hiding their true speed. While they are easier to gauge once they are in the match the OP was asking how do you tell BEFORE they lock horns with a player.
Click to expand...

Before? You can't. Not without them hitting a ball. That's true whether they bother to hide it or not. And if they're hiding it, you can watch them play ten racks and at best you can say "well, he's not as bad as he pretends to be". But good luck figuring out whether you're looking at B, A, AA, shortstop, pro, etc.
 
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