How do you play this common shot?

[KoolKat9Lives]

Good posts gents, thanks! I was on the phone and just gave the green light to euthanize my 6 month old kitten in my avatar. :frown:

Anyway, the safety I have been using with a better outcome than my 30%bank follows and is the one that Hu mentioned. Again, my premise is this is 2 B players. If I am playing a weaker player, my safety, IMO, is more viable. The Buddy Hall one is interesting. I need to get on the table and chart it, and develop %'s. The bottom line is - try to ever avoid being in this spot, but sometimes...

With practice, this is not too hard - just a half ball hit.

CueTable Help

 

[Chris_Lynch]

In NYC you will lose to pretty much any B player you do this against. It is easy to execute though so that is in your favor.

From the original position of the 9-ball being off the rail a fair amount have you tried any shots from back-kicking the 9? You could possibly kick it in the side or downtable for the safe if you don't make it.

 

[ShootingArts]

advantages of this safety

This safety is a substantially higher percentage shot than the bank for a lot of people. No sense selecting a safety that is as tough as the bank. Making the other player bank is almost certain. The catch is that he has a fair chance of making the bank. One thing that is an option is teasing the other player into trying to bank into the side pocket. If you can make the side pocket look like the better shot then the other player is in the do or die position. Firing for the side off of that safety is an almost certain sell out if you miss.

Hu

Good posts gents, thanks! I was on the phone and just gave the green light to euthanize my 6 month old kitten in my avatar. :frown:

Anyway, the safety I have been using with a better outcome than my 30%bank follows and is the one that Hu mentioned. Again, my premise is this is 2 B players. If I am playing a weaker player, my safety, IMO, is more viable. The Buddy Hall one is interesting. I need to get on the table and chart it, and develop %'s. The bottom line is - try to ever avoid being in this spot, but sometimes...

With practice, this is not too hard - just a half ball hit.

CueTable Help

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This safety is a substantially higher percentage shot than the bank for a lot of people.

Hu

The safety's percentage is not based on whether or not you can shoot the safe as diagramed but whether or not you win the game. Even if you shoot it as diagrammed, you're going to lose a percentage of these.

 

[dabarbr]

I haven't learned this cue table thing. I need to learn.
What I normally do in the situation is to bank lets say to the bottom corner pocket. I would play the nine to hit the short rail between the pocket and the first diamond. With the proper speed the nine should come up short of the bottom side pocket and the cue ball comes up to the other side pocket. This leaves a difficult cut or bank.
In shooting this shot if I hit it bad then I have a good chance of pocketing the nine.
Maybe someone understands this and can diagram it.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

This safety is a substantially higher percentage shot than the bank for a lot of people. No sense selecting a safety that is as tough as the bank. Making the other player bank is almost certain. The catch is that he has a fair chance of making the bank. One thing that is an option is teasing the other player into trying to bank into the side pocket. If you can make the side pocket look like the better shot then the other player is in the do or die position. Firing for the side off of that safety is an almost certain sell out if you miss.

Hu

If my opponent makes the bank off my safety 50% of the time, then I am confident I have improved my winning % here as compared to shooting a 30% bank. Not much though... If the game is on a tight table, then my safety is more viable.

I was watching the Earl vs Efren '96 Hong Kong $100k takes all match. Earl had a similar shot. He missed and sold out.

I HATE being in this position, it's like losing your queen in chess for a bishop in return...

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

The safety's percentage is not based on whether or not you can shoot the safe as diagramed but whether or not you win the game. Even if you shoot it as diagrammed, you're going to lose a percentage of these.

No doubt Jude. I was trying to do mental math...

If I shoot the bank and miss 70%, but I win 20% of that 70%, then I win 44% of the time.

If I do "my" safety and my opponent goes for the side bank 80% of the time, making it 50% of the time, and when he doesn't go for the side bank (does a safety I suppose) and I win 30% of those, then my win % is (.8 x .5) + (.2 x .3) = 46%.

This is simplified math and estimations on a lot, but this is what the big boys do on some level - right?

 

[ShootingArts]

I'd say a fairly high percentage

The safety's percentage is not based on whether or not you can shoot the safe as diagramed but whether or not you win the game. Even if you shoot it as diagrammed, you're going to lose a percentage of these.

Jude,

Now I am the one agreeing with you. This is a decent but not a great safety. Considering the ways the game can play out I'd say the other player has about a 30% chance of winning on the next shot and a 50% chance of winning the game.

There is a pretty high chance of the opponent playing a safe back leaving the object ball on the end rail if they are a savvy player. I find that this seldom happens in real play though. Although they sometimes leave the object ball on the end rail after attempting to make it, the object ball isn't usually locked up as tight as it would be with a deliberate safety and usually the cue ball is where the person who played the original safe has a shot although it may be a tough one.

If we consider all serious pool players as opposed to the general population, the pool players are more aggressive. Using that natural aggression against them is a large reason this safety often works. If a person can't get comfortable with the bank, I do believe this safety offers the second best chance of winning the game.

Hu

 

[i4pool]

I haven't learned this cue table thing. I need to learn.
What I normally do in the situation is to bank lets say to the bottom corner pocket. I would play the nine to hit the short rail between the pocket and the first diamond. With the proper speed the nine should come up short of the bottom side pocket and the cue ball comes up to the other side pocket. This leaves a difficult cut or bank.
In shooting this shot if I hit it bad then I have a good chance of pocketing the nine.
Maybe someone understands this and can diagram it.

I agree with dabarbr on this shot. Frank, is this what you were trying to explain?

Regards,
Abe

CueTable Help

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

No doubt Jude. I was trying to do mental math...

If I shoot the bank and miss 70%, but I win 20% of that 70%, then I win 44% of the time.

If I do "my" safety and my opponent goes for the side bank 80% of the time, making it 50% of the time, and when he doesn't go for the side bank (does a safety I suppose) and I win 30% of those, then my win % is (.8 x .5) + (.2 x .3) = 46%.

This is simplified math and estimations on a lot, but this is what the big boys do on some level - right?

On the whole, I think most pros will admit the situation is not pretty. Each will have a sort of strategy they've developed over the years and each is prepared for a percentage of failures. Truth be told, if your opponent left you this, your opponent should feel pretty fortunate.

 

[Neil]

................

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

KoolKat9Lives: Not meaning to sound crass, but if you spent the same amount of time practicing that bank that you have spent on this thread, your percentage of making it would go way up.:wink:

LMAO, so true.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

In NYC you will lose to pretty much any B player you do this against. It is easy to execute though so that is in your favor.

From the original position of the 9-ball being off the rail a fair amount have you tried any shots from back-kicking the 9? You could possibly kick it in the side or downtable for the safe if you don't make it.

This is exactly what I was thinking from the first post. The CB and OB are far enough off the rail to do what you want. I like the kick towards the side pocket and firm. The CB sticks and either makes the 9 or puts it on the "brunswick" on the short rail.

 

[ShootingArts]

I suspect it is mostly gut

I doubt that they are doing any cyphering on a conscious level but they have played out the scenario so many times they know how things are likely to go. That safe is moderately tough, I'd guess the odds of the other player winning on the next shot at maybe one in three or roughly the 30% I used in another post. If he misses going for the side, odds are you win on the next shot. If he goes for the corner and misses the odds are still decent that you have a shot. If he plays a strong safety to the end rail with either ball then the cat and mouse game begins and he is probably the cat!

Hu

No doubt Jude. I was trying to do mental math...

If I shoot the bank and miss 70%, but I win 20% of that 70%, then I win 44% of the time.

If I do "my" safety and my opponent goes for the side bank 80% of the time, making it 50% of the time, and when he doesn't go for the side bank (does a safety I suppose) and I win 30% of those, then my win % is (.8 x .5) + (.2 x .3) = 46%.

This is simplified math and estimations on a lot, but this is what the big boys do on some level - right?

 

[dabarbr]

I agree with dabarbr on this shot. Frank, is this what you were trying to explain?

Regards,
Abe

CueTable Help

This is it. Thanks

 

[Black-Balled]

...Honestly, I LOVE IT when they play safe...

ME too. 'specially when they play that bunt safe that leaves a cross-side bang.

bang=bank

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Depending on who you're playing, you really wanna avoid a cross side/corner bank. The %s are just too high. I think the ideal solution is to obviously make it, but if you can't--- you wanna leave someone with a straight-back for the win.

You must also balance whatever it is you do with your ability to pull it off. If you feel most comfy hitting 1/2 ball and going rail-rail and can execute it 95% of the time - do it - even if you're playing a monster.

I know I might be in the minority here when I say don't go for the win unless you're some kind of banker. If you're 20% in making that bank, why fire at it and try to get lucky? The 1/2 ball hit should be within anyone's ability who posts here. You might live to see another shot as opposed to putting on the Captain Blaster cape.

Experiment with the kick....kicking behind balls is a great move. Lots of good things happen.

I know you guys love it when they play safe, but you prob REAAAAAALLY love it when they go for it and dog out with the OB hanging within lay-up distance. (i.e. people should do what they're capable of vs. the odds of the shot)

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

KoolKat9Lives: Not meaning to sound crass, but if you spent the same amount of time practicing that bank that you have spent on this thread, your percentage of making it would go way up.:wink:

But I don't have a table at home. I work out of my home most days, and I am working dam it! :smile:


I've also done what dabarbar mentions here (as cuetabled by innovative4pool), and as a result of all the fine furry posters' input, I may use it more often.

The kick option is interesting, but having to go 2 rails from this distance is a bit too risky for my blood.

One thing is for sure, I'm not doing no pussy bunt safeties on Black-Balled! I hear he is the 2009 DCC banks champ!

 

[Black-Balled]

...I know you guys love it when they play safe, but you prob REAAAAAALLY love it when they go for it and dog out with the OB hanging within lay-up distance. ...

Ahh yes, I love that more.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I know you guys love it when they play safe, but you prob REAAAAAALLY love it when they go for it and dog out with the OB hanging within lay-up distance. (i.e. people should do what they're capable of vs. the odds of the shot)

Truth be told, no matter what your strategy is, you're going to have a fair amount of exchange over the long run. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you'll lose. I think showing an ability to be aggressive has a lot of advantages, especially early on in a set. Everyone is a little afraid of the shotmaker (even if he's a bit lucky).