How do you play this shot?

I tried the shot as diagrammed both ways. With right draw it was hard to get much closer than the first diamond past the center. The CB straightens up off the rail. This left a shot I wouldn't want for a game.

With left topspin the CB ran around and sat on the 8-ball, despite having a ton of inside english on it. It would take a bit of luck to get on the 8-ball well forst shot with either of these options without some familararity with the table.

I think the smarter shot would be either to:
1. Just play the CB soft onto the 1 ball, knuckling up the opponent.
2. Cutting the 1 ball over the pocket with IE to leave the CB near the rail for only a bank shot. if he makes it, he has to make a better shot that your other shot options that are not very attractive.

Better to leave a guy a 20% shot that take on a 50% shot. The following shot you should be 80% minimum.

It's Expected Value (E.V.)
50% + (20% x 50% if he misses.) = 60%
versus
80% x 80% (80% chance of going out if he misses the bank or tries to leave a safe) = 64%

Something like that. I think I'd go the cut over the pocket and leave a tough shot on the 8.

The knuckle up allows him to dribble onto the 8-ball and you may end up potting or safing the 1-ball on the next shot as hard to go for the out.

I don't like the off the cushion snooker...as it is maybe 30% foul and loss of game shot or 20% leave a shot on the 8-ball which could be played as a in-or-over safety. Depends if you now this shot well. Then it could be the shot to play.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
I tried the shot as diagrammed both ways. With right draw it was hard to get much closer than the first diamond past the center. The CB straightens up off the rail. This left a shot I wouldn't want for a game.

With left topspin the CB ran around and sat on the 8-ball, despite having a ton of inside english on it. It would take a bit of luck to get on the 8-ball well forst shot with either of these options without some familararity with the table.
.
Click to expand...

I love the WEI table, but the answers people post without actually setting it up on a table have always left me scratching my head. It looks so much easier in 2D, but it's just not easy in 3D.

Depending on how far the one ball is off the cushion, I'd either scratch cross side, or scratch cross corner. Those that have shot this shot a million times know how right I am on this.

I could try a stiff bank, but the kiss is on.

I could sit here and type "I would try to make sure that I didn't leave myself that position," but that's an answer I detest.

If it's so bad that I think a scratch is a high percentage, and getting any decent position is low percentage, I'd play a safety... and botch it of course.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
I love the WEI table, but the answers people post without actually setting it up on a table have always left me scratching my head. It looks so much easier in 2D, but it's just not easy in 3D.

Depending on how far the one ball is off the cushion, I'd either scratch cross side, or scratch cross corner. Those that have shot this shot a million times know how right I am on this.

I could try a stiff bank, but the kiss is on.

I could sit here and type "I would try to make sure that I didn't leave myself that position," but that's an answer I detest.

If it's so bad that I think a scratch is a high percentage, and getting any decent position is low percentage, I'd play a safety... and botch it of course.

Fred
Click to expand...
Fred, you and I both know that the WEI table is tough to show exactly what you're trying to show. Whoever posts these type of threads can be off just a hair and it changes everything about the shot. Slide the CB a mm to the left and the offensive shot goes out the window. To the right a mm, and playing safe is like trying to lose when you have a chance to win. When I see these posts, I look for the run out first and the run out IS there, but it depends on what the exact position is of the CB. I like my chances of getting out with that diagram shooting it with inside english. Of course, I can't spell efas anyway so I always try to run out.:D Peace, John.
 
Im going to try this when I get home. As of looking at this though, I would cut with extreme left english and let the english carry the cue ball around table for a decent shot on the 8.

If I were to play a saftey on this shot, I would thin the 1 very easy leaving it closer to the pocket and bring the cue ball out to around the spot leaving him an impossible cut or terrible bank.
 
On a bar table, I would cinch the one getting the cue a little back up-table and bank the 8 back to one corner or the other.

On a 9' table? Depends how far the one is off the rail... Looks too close to do what people are describing with the spin/draw off the side rails... the spin through 3 or 4 rail shot won't work either... So... 9' table... shot a stop shot on the one... playing it 3 rails out to the middle of the table to get lucky-safety and block the path to the 8. If you don't block the 8, let him shoot the bank.
 
I asked Charlie Bryant to play this shot on my table as if he were playing for mucho cheese. He said he would absolutely try to leave the cue ball on the foot rail and take the bottom half of the cue ball away from the opponent. The idea is to force your opponent to shoot an uncommon shot (cue stuck to the rail). The second goal is to block the eight with your ball, but again most important is to make sure you freeze the cue to the foot rail. Stun the cue to the foot rail and duck behind the object ball. You accomplish several things. You hide behind your ball for a safety and at the same time take the bottom half of the cue away from the opponent.

START(
%AF4D3%Hr5O7%PI6L6%WF8F0%XI1K8%YI1E9%ZF8C4%]D2E1%^F1E0

)END
 
TX Poolnut said:
I asked Charlie Bryant to play this shot on my table as if he were playing for mucho cheese. He said he would absolutely try to leave the cue ball on the foot rail and take the bottom half of the cue ball away from the opponent. The idea is to force your opponent to shoot an uncommon shot (cue stuck to the rail). The second goal is to block the eight with your ball, but again most important is to make sure you freeze the cue to the foot rail. Stun the cue to the foot rail and duck behind the object ball. You accomplish several things. You hide behind your ball for a safety and at the same time take the bottom half of the cue away from the opponent.

START(
%AF4D3%Hr5O7%PI6L6%WF8F0%XI1K8%YI1E9%ZF8C4%]D2E1%^F1E0

)END
Click to expand...
Well, that's nice to know that Charlie wouldn't go for it in that spot. I'll say it again, move the CB 1 mm to the right and see what he says. Why he wouldn't go for the out there is beyond me. Oh well, he's the pro.
 
Rude Dog said:
Why he wouldn't go for the out there is beyond me.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't understand what the problem is here...it's a routine out. Someone mentioned they didn't like cutting the 8. I think any decent player is supposed to make that shot consistently...especially with the 8 so far off the rail.
 
i'm looking at this shot, and i think i agree with 3 rails reverse english (inside), but i think i'd hit it with low inside. the CB would grab the 1st rail, adding angle in a way that high inside would not.

CueTable Help



of course, 2D is no way to make decisions...

-s
 
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Certain touch ...o

jsp said:
Hey Scott, are you sure about the low-left spin on the CB? With left spin, I doubt the CB will come off the first rail the way you drew it up.

I personally like the soft one rail kick into the 1 with right spin.
Click to expand...

I didn't say left spin, that was in reference to Grinder's shot. I would cut
the ball just a little thin, with lots and lots of low right spin. I shoot spin
shots pretty well, and thinning the 1 jsut a little keeps it out of the side
pocket, for sure. The cueball spinning so much on the 2nd rail deadhits,
killing the spin, but rebounds with the angle needed to get back across.
Even if the cueball ends up 1 diamond up from the side pocket (uptable),
the 8 ball shot is very makeable.

Yes, I do like the safety too, but a touch too left or right when hitting the
1 leaves an open shot for an 'A' player, and he should make it. I'll put it
this way, if it was a top pro I was playing, I would go for the out because
even if they hac to kick, they could kick soft, and barely hit the 8 leaving
you with about a straight in shot on the 1 ball off the rail, and you would
have to get clear back uptable for shape on the 8, and I do not want a
'bite the bullet' shot on the 8 (long bank), or to have to play a safety with just the 8. Always think 2 shots ahead at all times.
 
Snapshot9 said:
I didn't say left spin, .
Click to expand...

You didn't mean to, but you did. I think you must have used someone else's diagram and didn't realize that they had put low left english on the cueball (lower left corner of the WEI Table). Hence, the confusion.

Fred
 
straybullet said:
Scott

I just tried your shot like 10 times, and the cue ball kept doing something like this (with the low left English)... what am I doing wrong?

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

If you are at the table now, try the safe I pointed out earlier assuming the one is on the rail.

Play a soft shot to carom the CB off the one in the corner. The CB will not scratch because a double kiss will occur. Play it "slow roll". The result SHOULD be as follows.

START(
%AG3E9%Hr3O3%PE2E6%QA7[3%eC2a0

)END

I am not at a table to try it, but it should work quite well. You must shoot it as if you would scratch which means hitting left center of the one ball.
 
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TX Poolnut said:
I asked Charlie Bryant to play this shot on my table as if he were playing for mucho cheese. He said he would absolutely try to leave the cue ball on the foot rail and take the bottom half of the cue ball away from the opponent. The idea is to force your opponent to shoot an uncommon shot (cue stuck to the rail). The second goal is to block the eight with your ball, but again most important is to make sure you freeze the cue to the foot rail. Stun the cue to the foot rail and duck behind the object ball. You accomplish several things. You hide behind your ball for a safety and at the same time take the bottom half of the cue away from the opponent.

START(
%AF4D3%Hr5O7%PI6L6%WF8F0%XI1K8%YI1E9%ZF8C4%]D2E1%^F1E0

)END
Click to expand...
That looks like a crazy ...impossible shot to me. Especially on the line that 1 is drawn.

Hitting the CB had enough to draw and avoid the scratch would send the 1-ball across to the other rail.

Pete's double kiss safe doesn't work either...at least as far as I could understand his description.

The fine cut soft hook shot can work but it's very easy to scratch.

After trying a few shots, I think I'd call safe and cut the 1-ball to sit it over the pocket and leave the opponent a horrible bank shot.
 
Colin Colenso said:
That looks like a crazy ...impossible shot to me. Especially on the line that 1 is drawn.

Hitting the CB had enough to draw and avoid the scratch would send the 1-ball across to the other rail.

Pete's double kiss safe doesn't work either...at least as far as I could understand his description.

The fine cut soft hook shot can work but it's very easy to scratch.

After trying a few shots, I think I'd call safe and cut the 1-ball to sit it over the pocket and leave the opponent a horrible bank shot.
Click to expand...

Try it, it should work quite well. Make sure you hit it soft. The CB will hit the bottom rail after the dbl kiss and start up table about 2 " or more. The one will come off the rail 2".
 
Snapshot9 said:
I would shoot it like this: I, personally, don't think it
would be a problem.

START(
%AF4D3%Hr5O7%PI6L6%UT6[8%VF7C6%WG5E6%XI2K7%[d2E6%\T7[8%]D8D0
%^E4D1%eA5b2
)END

Grinder ... I really don'[t see you getting there with your shot. Getting to
the foot rail angle you show is difficult, to say the least, and even if you
did, you would lose 'speed' and just have a spinning cue ball that would
come up way short of where you showing it going.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. No excuse for not getting out here, and I'm not letting an A player get another shot. This may not get you really tight shape on the eight, but it's plenty good enough for a good player.
 
pete lafond said:
Try it, it should work quite well. Make sure you hit it soft. The CB will hit the bottom rail after the dbl kiss and start up table about 2 " or more. The one will come off the rail 2".
Click to expand...
I didn't realise you meant for it to bounce off the bottom rail.

I played the shot several times just then. Got the hook a couple of times, one perfectly behind the 1-ball. Made a few scratches and a couple of double kisses with no hook.

The double kiss needs to hit very fine on the way back. The margin for error is pretty small. A small roll will ruin the shot and many tables roll around the pocket entrances.

So it works...but the scratch likelihood makes it a pass for me in a match unless I had nothing else.
Colin
 
At my skill level, I would make the cut about 90% of the time or get down the table about 90% of the time, but only do both <50%.

Depending on the perceived banking skill of my opponent, I would either try

1) The safe of the short rail as described earlier. which leaves some rosk of a foul if not properly ecxecuted.

2) Call "safe", cut the ball softly toward the pocket trying to miss and leave it hanging, using left English to leave the cue ball on the short rail just past the center, as below

START(
%AD7D6%Hr6O8%PD1Q9%WG0D5%XL0N8%YD4P4%ZF7C9

)END

If he missed the bank, hopefully I could use the position of the one ball to get sahpe on the 8 almost anywhere on the table.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I didn't realise you meant for it to bounce off the bottom rail.

I played the shot several times just then. Got the hook a couple of times, one perfectly behind the 1-ball. Made a few scratches and a couple of double kisses with no hook.

The double kiss needs to hit very fine on the way back. The margin for error is pretty small. A small roll will ruin the shot and many tables roll around the pocket entrances.

So it works...but the scratch likelihood makes it a pass for me in a match unless I had nothing else.
Colin
Click to expand...

I played tonight and tried the shot a few times. Worked pretty good. I think it is just being familiar with this sort of shot. Again, as I stated in my first post - I would opt for the out.
 
Cut the one into the corner with 36 degree draw,bringing the cue ball past the center pocket on opposite side of table,and cut the eight to the corner.
 
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