How fast do you break?

I remember the first time they had one of those things at the BCA show and the pro's tried it out. Most were little more then 20 to 22. I think Buddy Hall was under 20. A few tried to see how had they could break with the cue ball flying all over the place. David Howard and Sammy Jones got to around 30 but the break would have been worthless in a real game, 50% of the time the cue ball went off the table.

I was at the Nashville trade show in 1989, if that is the show you're talking
about, Mac.
Mike Massey was upset that he couldn't exceed 23 mph.
I saw a kid do 32 mph, but we needed a search party to find whitey.
I took one try with a borrowed cue and broke like I would in a money session.
I broke carefully, making sure of my accuracy, and hit 21 mph. I felt that
meant I broke 23 to 25 when warmed up....I don't count any breaks where
whitey hits a rail....that is useless speed info, like golfer who hits long drives but can't keep it on the fairway.
Most amazing was Tony Ellin and Busty...33 mph, WHITEY ON THE TABLE.

That system, btw, was based on the speed of the cue-ball AS IT HIT THE
ONE-BALL.

I've seen set-ups where hackers are getting 27 mph plus, but nothing to
do with cue-ball speed AS IT HITS THE ONE-BALL.
 
Charlie Bryant has the fastest break on record still ar far as I know. He was clocked at over 34.7mph back in the 90's I think it was
 
My normal speed is about 19-20. Give me a half an hour on the break rack to get my timing down and I can get it up to 22-23.

This is pretty close for me as well and I agree with the "timing" thing as the main factor in more speed.

The pool break is alot like a golf swing, timing and good contact (tip to cueball and cueball to rack) are key to getting good results. Cue speed at contat is akin to clubhead speed and it takes smooth timing of body movement during a break and being loose to generate that type of power. Alot of the pros have exagerated leg kicks, exagerated followthroughs, ect... when breaking for power. On that video above with Brandon P you can see his followthrough was huge and the timing on that break was very good. His whole body moved into that break at the same instant so that the cue got pure forward motion from all the moving parts.

All of that said for the most part anything past 23mph is not needed. That seems to be the speed that a solid break peaks at for getting awesome action from the rack. Ramping up the break past that might make a bigger noise but your objectball action is likely not resulting in many more balls having the momentum to hit another rail and thus have a chance of going in. It is also virtually impossible past 23 MPH to control object balls in the pack and do what people like SVB and Busta and Archer are doing to the 1-ball on a 10-ball break these days.

If you really want to attempt to get more speed things I think about when breaking are a slight bend in the back knee and "springing" into the shot, a LONG followthrough, and using a slightly less then 90 degrees elbow angle on the stroking arm at contact. While 90 degrees might be good for shooting I find more like 85 or even 80 can give more power in the break and actually increase control.

Keep in mind though if you are going to work on all of the above it wont give you awesome results instantly. It is like fixing a golf swing, it will feel terrible at the start and you might see alot of wild breaks and varying results. You need to stick to trying to get the "feel" for the movement that creates the speed and then work on the control aspect after the speed is there.

<edit> Also, a really heavy break cue will hurt cueball speed. My break cue is 17 ounces. You will want 19 ounces or less to get high velocity on the cueball because cue acceleration is critical. With these light cues speed goes up but you do lose some control so you need to work hard on the break and making sure you can hit the rack square every time.
 
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About the phone app, I get better results by placing it on the rail of an adjacent table or chair. When I put it on the rail beside me (like everyone else does), the sound is too loud & the app can get confused...you can go in & manually set the end points, but it's messy that way.
 
This has probably been brought up repeatedly but does anyone know SVB's average break speed? He never seems to put anything behind it but always seems to get good breaks.
I have clocked his 10 ball break consistently at 22.5 mph
 
I'm sure it's been covered but I'm curious as to how much the table matters as far as the accuracy of that app goes. 9 foot vs 7 foot, ball type, etc. Does the app use sound or vibration? If it is reasonably accurate I may download the android version.
 
I'm right there at around 20-21. I can get it up to 24 or even higher I suppose but I lose control of whitey. My break actually sucks pretty bad but I really hate working on it. I think that's a problem a lot of the older pros run into - I think they just get bored with the break shot more than anything else. I don't really think they lose the physical ability to break the balls well once they hit 40 or 50 years old. I think they just get bored with it.

I do have a question for everybody:

Why is it that most of the best breakers (SVB, Bustamante, Orcullo, Archer, and others) start out low and then rise up during the break shot? Why don't they just start out high to begin with? The only thing I can think of is they like to be low to aim, but if that's all it was then they would just aim low then adjust their body higher, then shoot (sort us like a jump shot). But that's not what they do. Instead they rise up on that last backstroke and continue to rise until they make contact. I can't quite figure that out.
 
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I got into a break speed contest a few years back.I won the 40 and over (won a jump stick)contest with a 28.7 .I hit 29 but whitey went air born.
If you where to ask me before the contest what my speed would be,I would of told you around 75..lol. I thought we all broke faster then what we really do.
 
I break REALLY fast. I RUN to the table and fire straight into the break with no warmup strokes. My ass is back in the seat before the balls stop rolling. The whole process takes less than 5 seconds. :grin:
 
Break speed

My brother broke a 34 out in vegas! When it matters he's doing about 18-19 side break haha.
 
I do have a question for everybody:

Why is it that most of the best breakers (SVB, Bustamante, Orcullo, Archer, and others) start out low and then rise up during the break shot? Why don't they just start out high to begin with? The only thing I can think of is they like to be low to aim, but if that's all it was then they would just aim low then adjust their body higher, then shoot (sort us like a jump shot). But that's not what they do. Instead they rise up on that last backstroke and continue to rise until they make contact. I can't quite figure that out.

I feel that their tip is raising because they're dropping their elbow.
Mike Sigel, in his prime, did the opposite....he cued high and stroked from
his elbow, and the tip dropped to center.
Basically, the modern breaker are hitting from their armpit.
 
I'm sure it's been covered but I'm curious as to how much the table matters as far as the accuracy of that app goes. 9 foot vs 7 foot, ball type, etc. Does the app use sound or vibration? If it is reasonably accurate I may download the android version.

It arrives at a figure by you inputting what size table it is and where you're breaking from so it has distance, then it measures the sound of the tip hitting the cueball and the sound of the cueball hitting the 1st ball which gives it time.

Thus you have time it took to travel a certain distance equals mph.
 
I feel that their tip is raising because they're dropping their elbow.
Mike Sigel, in his prime, did the opposite....he cued high and stroked from
his elbow, and the tip dropped to center.
Basically, the modern breaker are hitting from their armpit.

That part makes sense but I wasn't really talking about that. After rereading my post I see it wasn't very clear. What I was wondering about is their actual body positions. They all seem to rise up out of their stance on their final backstroke and continue rising until they strike the ball. Why not just have a more upright stance to begin with???
 
Break Hypothesis

Joey A,

What a great thread topic. I have been meaning to write something similar to this exact question. I personally think you are onto something regarding fast-twitch muscle ability.

I have been weight training for 17 years. At my strongest, I weighed 180 lbs., and I was able to deadlift 320 lbs., squat 300 lbs., and bench 270. During this time in my life, I trained for a “slower-twitch” strength, or the ability to lift heavy weights for a few repetitions. Also, during this time, I think my break was seriously underwhelming. While I no longer train as seriously as I used to, I still have the ability to bench weights that are significantly higher than my body weight.

Once I downloaded the break speed app., we had a session at our pool hall which sounds similar to what happened at your pool hall, in which various people tried their hand at finding out their top break speed.

There is a fifteen-year old that recently started playing at the pool hall. Provided his mixture is right he might be able to run a rack of nine-ball on a 9foot, but he has yet to do so. In any case, I bet this kid a soda that I would beat him on break mph. I go first and clock in consistently at 19.5 (controlling the cue ball). This kid, who cannot do one single push-up, and who is on a steady diet of fast-food, chips, and soda, on his first try, clocks in at 25.6 mph. He then proceeds to lay down a 26 mph on his second try. Since then, I have seen him hit 27mph.

Because of this experience, my hypothesis is as follows:

Break speed has little to do with brute strength. It would seem break speed has more to do with a technique that allows someone to generate tip speed. In observing many pro-level-players it seems that many of them have some movement in which their body lifts up. SVB does this in a way that is probably the most pronounced, however almost all of the pros with big breaks do this. I also think this process might be aided by lighter arms as they are less muscle laden and easier to accelerate.

I have spent sometime practicing in a way in which I try to mimic the motion of SVB. Using this method, I have been able to, at times, generate speeds between 20.5 and 21.5mph. In doing my best SVB impression, I have noticed that I have a much harder time getting an accurate hit on the cue ball and rack. Interestingly, even when my speeds have been lower (in the 19 mph range) whilst working on my SVB technique, I think the results have been MUCH better on the occasions when I have been able to get accurate hits on the cue ball and rack. Maybe there is something to this “lifting up technique” that helps apart from speed?

I hope this long post adds to the discussion, and I am interested to hear what others say.

Some here have simply posted speeds, and I think it is more interesting to think about some of the following questions:

What techniques and abilities lead to increased speed?

Is more speed necessarily better? (one poster suggested that SVB's breaks are in the 22mph range, and he is widely considered to be the best breaker, or at least one of the best).

What training can someone do to improve break RESULTS and maybe speed?

kollegedave
 
Break speed has little to do with brute strength.
This is a point that needs to be emphasized. Loose=fast. Tight=slow. The harder you "try" (tensing the wrong muscles), the slower you go.

In doing my best SVB impression, I have noticed that I have a much harder time getting an accurate hit on the cue ball and rack.
It's the timing that is important. SVB starts his body transition far in advance of releasing his hand/cue into the CB. Think of it this way: your big body (relatively to your cue) will stay on a particular line once moving along it. Naturally, your arm will follow that line once its set. Visualize your body as a train charging down the tracks. Those that release their body & cue at the same time (or the cue to early) will suffer from lack of precision (repeatability).
 
That part makes sense but I wasn't really talking about that. After rereading my post I see it wasn't very clear. What I was wondering about is their actual body positions. They all seem to rise up out of their stance on their final backstroke and continue rising until they strike the ball. Why not just have a more upright stance to begin with???
I think all good breaks are hit from the feet....so they start their stroke from
their foundation....rising is partly adding transferred motion to the cue
action....and partly getting out of their own way for the exaggerated
follow-through...like golfers do.

..personally, I like the ones who squat and stand as the cue hits the cue-ball.
 
I break with an 18.5 oz Poison VX2.9 J/B. Using the Iphone app @ a year ago I averaged @ 21-22 when playing 10 ball (I'll break a little slower in 9 ball if I have a consistent tight rack and can dial in the wing ball and get on the one). The fastest I ever recorded was 28.6.

Since then I have incorporated a bit of SVB's "stand up" move and I'm confident I've picked up a little speed without sacrificing control of whitey. I should measure my speed again... The stand up move definitely can help generate more speed, you just have to work on it.

[...]
I do have a question for everybody:

Why is it that most of the best breakers (SVB, Bustamante, Orcullo, Archer, and others) start out low and then rise up during the break shot? Why don't they just start out high to begin with? The only thing I can think of is they like to be low to aim, but if that's all it was then they would just aim low then adjust their body higher, then shoot (sort us like a jump shot). But that's not what they do. Instead they rise up on that last backstroke and continue to rise until they make contact. I can't quite figure that out.

That part makes sense but I wasn't really talking about that. After rereading my post I see it wasn't very clear. What I was wondering about is their actual body positions. They all seem to rise up out of their stance on their final backstroke and continue rising until they strike the ball. Why not just have a more upright stance to begin with???

An oldie but a goodie:

Colin Colenso's primer on power-breaking:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

The reason for the starting out low, and then "standing up" during the delivery of the cue, has to do with two main concepts in power-breaking. One is the "long-lever" concept. See if you can guess the other one.

-Sean
 
I do have a question for everybody:

Why is it that most of the best breakers (SVB, Bustamante, Orcullo, Archer, and others) start out low and then rise up during the break shot? Why don't they just start out high to begin with? The only thing I can think of is they like to be low to aim, but if that's all it was then they would just aim low then adjust their body higher, then shoot (sort us like a jump shot). But that's not what they do. Instead they rise up on that last backstroke and continue to rise until they make contact. I can't quite figure that out.


I believe there's a couple reasons. First though, by standing up you get the grip arm straighter and longer - a longer lever can build more speed. Additionally, by standing up you are creating momentum and rhythm. And then on follow through you are "uncoiling", including a rotation of the hips and torso.

Think of a golf swing. Why don't we just start our golf swing at the top - why even have a back swing?
 
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