How good did Jay play?

yobagua said:
hEY jAY GREAT MEMORIES. I beat Richard Pryor in a game of 14.1 once at the Den. Those were the best pool years of my life. Dont forget Neil Young used to come in once in a while too with the drummer of Buffalo Springfield. Dewey was his first name.
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Dewey Martin was a buddy of mine. We would toke a little together. :)
 
I gotta question which I'm sure you can provide a great answer to, but it is something that has been gnawing at me for some time. :o

To be proficient in pool, I mean play championship level, do you believe that practice makes the difference between the lions and the lambs, or is it possible that some players just have a God-given talent that makes them the best?

Also, I have had the joy of meeting quite a few pool champions in my travels, and one trait that I have noticed that many pool greats have is intelligence. I do not mean book-learned intelligence. I mean their capacity to absorb knowledge is greater than others.

What do you think? Is it possible that some pool players, no matter how much they practice, will never attain the level that today's champions play at?

In sum, do the great players have more intelligence than average, a God-given talent, or none of the above?

JAM
 
JAM said:
I gotta question which I'm sure you can provide a great answer to, but it is something that has been gnawing at me for some time. :o

To be proficient in pool, I mean play championship level, do you believe that practice makes the difference between the lions and the lambs, or is it possible that some players just have a God-given talent that makes them the best?

Also, I have had the joy of meeting quite a few pool champions in my travels, and one trait that I have noticed that many pool greats have is intelligence. I do not mean book-learned intelligence. I mean their capacity to absorb knowledge is greater than others.

What do you think? Is it possible that some pool players, no matter how much they practice, will never attain the level that today's champions play at?

In sum, do the great players have more intelligence than average, a God-given talent, or none of the above?

JAM
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This is a good question. I wish you hadn't asked. In a nutshell, it is the same reason that some athletes make it to the Majors and most don't. Millions play basketball but only a few make it to the top.

It's not just intelligence. I have a very high I.Q. and am smarter than many great pool players. Sorry, but it's true. And many guys who are smarter than me, don't play as well.

I have seen players that practice for hours every day and never get any better. They just hold their level. Pool tends to be like that. Players reach a certain level and stay there. Just like in golf. That is why we can handicap games so well. I play a certain speed and so does Keith.

Yes, I think the answer has to do with God given talent. Some have more than others. Ask your significant other this question. He had more God given talent than any pool player I ever saw, bar none!

You can always improve at pool, learn a few more shots, a few more moves. It's a little harder to improve your stroke though, and your eye for shotmaking. Anything that will improve your ability to concentrate and focus is helpful also. Being mentally strong is an absolute necessity to be a decent player.

Expert coaching can move a player up perhaps one speed. That's about it. All the coaching in the world isn't going to make a donkey into a player.
 
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jay helfert said:
This is a good question. I wish you hadn't asked. In a nutshell, it is the same reason that some athletes make it to the Majors and most don't. Millions play basketball but only a few make it to the top.

It's not just intelligence. I have a very high I.Q. and am smarter than many great pool players. Sorry, but it's true. And many guys who are smarter than me, don't play as well.

I have seen players that practice for hours every day and never get any better. They just hold their level. Pool tends to be like that. Players reach a certain level and stay there. Just like in golf. That is why we can handicap games so well. I play a certain speed and so does Keith.

Yes, I think the answer has to do with God given talent. Some have more than others. Ask your significant other this question. He had more God given talent than any pool player I ever saw, bar none!

You can always improve at pool, learn a few more shots, a few more moves. It's a little harder to improve your stroke though, and your eye for shotmaking. Anything that will improve your ability to concentrate and focus is helpful also. Being mentally strong is an absolute necessity to be a decent player.

Expert coaching can move a player up perhaps one speed. That's about it. All the coaching in the world isn't going to make a donkey into a player.
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I think you are right. It is the drive that some players have that may be greater than others, or in pool parlance, it's the "killer instinct."

Jimmy Reid scored the highest SAT score ever, as an example of intelligence in tandem with playing pool.

I have talked to Keith about this topic a lot. When he came in third at the 2003 U.S. Open, he hadn't picked up a cue stick or hit a ball in over a month. His "killer instinct" is strong.

Today, I am inclined to believe that desire, just wanting to be great, isn't going to make one a pool champion, no matter how many hours of practice.

Once you acquire the mechanical skills of pool, i.e., lessons, coaching, fundamentals, practice, the rest is mental. I think self-confidence goes a long way. There is something to be said about the POWER of believing. Most great players do seem to have a little ego to them, some more so than others. :D

This comment by you, Jay, says it in a nutshell: Being mentally strong is an absolute necessity to be a decent player.




JAM
 
Pancho tossed to Marvin

jay helfert said:
Wow, you go back a long ways. I probably got more action in that joint (Ye Billiard Den) than any of the above. I played someone in there every day. Everyone knew I wasn't a top player, so they matched up with me. I gave up a lot of weight to non players, like 10-5 in One Pocket. Several of the young kids who hung out in there went on to become successful lawyers and doctors. And they all still like pool.

I played Jimmy Caan, John Brescia, Jack Ackerman and many more entertainers on a regular basis. Even a young Don Johnson once, until his buddy Sean came in and told him to get off the table (his exact words). Arizona Sean was a very good player and put the name Toupee Jay on me. He was a double for Warren Beatty, and a renowned cat burglar....
...The guy on trial for murder, Phil Spector, came in more than once. He liked pool and was friends with Eddie Kelly. He once dumped $25,000 on a pool table to prove a point. They finally took him off for fifteen thousand. I think Pancho engineered it. Phil's bodyguard/driver was George Travell from New York. No one to mess with, carried a gun at all times. George loved to play Straight Pool, his only game. He came in often, parking Phil's limo outside along the wall. George and I were friendly because I knew all his New York 14.1 heroes. He loved to talk about Ervolino and Jersey Red. This gangster looked up to them. Life is funny huh. Okay, enough reminiscing.
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Arizona Sean was the boyfriend of Geri McGee, the beauty who gained fame by Sharon Stone's portrayal of her in the movie "Casino." I was madly in love with her, and often fantasized bopping Sean and running off with Geri.
Pancho dumped Spector to Marvin Henderson playing straight pool, with Jimmy Caan looking on as a spectator, in Spector's house. Pancho heated up the score badly when he ran a bunch of balls trying to make it look good. Marvin became helpless and barely took it off. It's a miracle they werent both killed over it. Jay, you never mentioned how many good looking girls hung out in Ye Billiard Den. Reminiscing is all we have left now.
To a tough old short-stop, The Jaybird,

the Beard
 
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jay helfert said:
Another recent thread on here was demeaning to Freddie and made me decide to put this information on here before I too get bombed from the rear.

I am officially the Bob Uecker of Pool. I was barely on the radar when I played. My poolroom was always a "spot" for all roadmen to stop and try to get pumped up. I am proud to say that I was a lifetime "shortstop", never destined for greatness in anyone's book. That was not all bad though. To be called a shortstop meant that you could play. Maybe a couple of balls below the top players but so what.

I make no claims to pool greatness, but do consider myself a decent player who was willing to mix it up with other non champions. Like Freddie I have a few notches on my belt, with wins over good players. Mostly these came in tournaments where the matches are relatively short. But I also have beaten hundreds (yes I said hundreds) of other lesser players in poolrooms and bars across America. And I ain't done yet. So be careful who you bark at.

Typically, wherever I lived and hung out, I was the best player around. So when a good player came to town, they called me. If I didn't know him I would play him, and more often then not I did okay. If I knew him to be a top player, I either took a pass or asked for weight. Not so hard to figure out. I would get the 7 ball from strong players and the 5 or 6 from top players. At One Pocket, I would play strong players with 8-6 or 9-7 and the champions with 9-6 or 8-5. Ronnie gave me 8-4, and I could hold my own.

Bank Pool was a little different. That was my "road" game. When all else failed, I would try to get my man to play some Banks. At this game, I had a reputation. I beat quite a few good players, some of them "names". Unlike Freddie, I will not put those names on here. No reason to do that. They are all better players then me. I just happened to catch them on an off day.

I remember many players I beat, but many more I have forgotten. Sometimes I have been at a tournament and some guy comes up to me and asks me If I remember him. I usually don't. Then they tell me we played somewhere. My stock answer is "How much did it cost me?" That usually elicits a laugh, and they tell me I won.

So my secondary purpose in posting this, is to hear from some of the guys I played. If any of you are on here, give me a shout.
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I think that was very well written, Jay. You have to try and be humble in this game to get anywhere, but on the same hand not a "PUNK"......It was a pleasure reading this.

Frankie "THE KID"
 
100% Correct

JAM said:
I gotta question which I'm sure you can provide a great answer to, but it is something that has been gnawing at me for some time. :o

To be proficient in pool, I mean play championship level, do you believe that practice makes the difference between the lions and the lambs, or is it possible that some players just have a God-given talent that makes them the best?

Also, I have had the joy of meeting quite a few pool champions in my travels, and one trait that I have noticed that many pool greats have is intelligence. I do not mean book-learned intelligence. I mean their capacity to absorb knowledge is greater than others.

What do you think? Is it possible that some pool players, no matter how much they practice, will never attain the level that today's champions play at?

In sum, do the great players have more intelligence than average, a God-given talent, or none of the above?

JAM
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I think your 100% correct Jenny. I took a very long layoff when I was about 23 years old. I was hanging around the NYC pool scene since I was about 14 or so. It was me, GINKY, Frankie H., Tony R., Flaco, Joey K., Spanish Pete, Gypsy, ect. ect. I played just as well if not better then some, anyhow, I meet my "GIRLFRIEND" then and just stopped playing. It was to a point were if we went to a bar I would not even play. That went on for 5 years, when I came back on the scene, WOW everyone's a champ. I go play in my first tourny after this five years and fell right on my face. Could'nt even make three balls in a row, I knew what to do but just coudnt execute it. I went crazy, practicing every day for hours. I just could'nt get to where I was before I took that layoff, and still can't get there. I mean I don't play as much anymore with work and everything, but the moral of this story is everybody I played with became a champ, wonder were I would have been If I did not take that layoff............:( :confused:
 
Jay, in your road days, did you travel alone? If not, who were some of your road partners?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Ardeno
Ktown, I like that a lot. I've heard of Jay since he was pictured in the National Billiard News in the late 1970's or early 1980's. But I've never seen him hit a ball either.

And Jay, your initial post in this thread gave the exact description of your speed that I figured you are. A strong shortstop who's best game is banks. Although, you do have a losing percentage in banks against Fatboy.

But take heart, my friend. You probably play stronger than 90%-95% of the 10,000+ registered posters here at AZB. And I would venture to say that your probably in every veteran posters top 10 list of favorite posters.


jay helfert said:
That compliment will get you the 8 Ball if we play.
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Thanks Jay. I printed a copy of this and stuck it in my glove box. :D
 
Smorgass Bored Has A 147 I.Q.

jay helfert said:
I have seen players that practice for hours every day and never get any better. They just hold their level. Pool tends to be like that. Players reach a certain level and stay there.
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That sounds like The Peter Principle to me.
Doug

The Peter Principle is a colloquial principle of poolplaying, stated as "In poolplaying every player tends to rise to his level of incompetence."
 
jay helfert said:
Okay, enough reminiscing.
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I GUESS. Save some for the book, man.

I like reading them for free just like the next guy on AZ but I don't have to snack before a good meal. The fabric of your stories and the names of the people you have played and the ones you have simply passed in the night come across as an incredible journey so please save a little for the book.
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
freddy the beard said:
Arizona Sean was the boyfriend of Geri McGee, the beauty who gained fame by Sharon Stone's portrayal of her in the movie "Casino." I was madly in love with her, and often fantasized bopping Sean and running off with Geri.
Pancho dumped Spector to Marvin Henderson playing straight pool, with Jimmy Caan looking on as a spectator, in Spector's house. Pancho heated up the score badly when he ran a bunch of balls trying to make it look good. Marvin became helpless and barely took it off. It's a miracle they werent both killed over it. Jay, you never mentioned how many good looking girls hung out in Ye Billiard Den. Reminiscing is all we have left now.
To a tough old short-stop, The Jaybird,

the Beard
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Sean always had all the girls. He was probably my best friend around there. He was one unique character, but a stone thief. A high line one too, I might add. His best buddy was Don Johnson, and they hung around for years. I haven't seen Sean in over ten years. He may be in the joint for all I know. He did some time before.

Last time I saw Sean he was living on the beach in Malibu with two dolls. And we worked on Don Johnson's script for Harley Davidson & The Marlboro Man together. If you ever see this movie the opening scene is a Bar Pool game that Don wins. Sean and I wrote all the dialogue for this scene, and Don used a cue I gave him. He still owes me $500 for the rewrite.

If you google his name (Sean Walsh), you will see the movies he worked on with Warren Beatty. Yeah, it was the Pancheroo and Marvin. They would have been killed for sure. Spector was a dangerous guy, with gun toting side kicks. And the dames at the The Den were beauties too. I got Sean's leftovers which wasn't all bad. I had a pad up on top of the hill on King's Road, with a view of all L.A. I'd bring the girls up there, get high and have fun.

Now I've tamed down. A little. :)
 
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JoeyA said:
I GUESS. Save some for the book, man.

I like reading them for free just like the next guy on AZ but I don't have to snack before a good meal. The fabric of your stories and the names of the people you have played and the ones you have simply passed in the night come across as an incredible journey so please save a little for the book.
Thanks,
JoeyA
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Don't worry. There's a lot more where that came from. Almost too much for one book. There I will name names.
 
jay helfert said:
Once I started running tournaments, I basically gave up playing. After a few years people would come up and ask me if I play pool. I liked that.
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Jay, it's kind of funny about spending so much time running tourneys. Most of the players don't think you can't hit a lick because they never get to see you play. It's one of the best hustles around.

Stones
 
Stones said:
Jay, it's kind of funny about spending so much time running tourneys. Most of the players don't think you can't hit a lick because they never get to see you play. It's one of the best hustles around.

Stones
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Yeah, Harry used to hustle me at every tournament. I told him many times he couldn't beat me. But he kept it up until we played. He tried to high roll me. It was a very costly mistake. NEXT!
 
Charlie Williams came to my poolroom with Tang a couple of years back. I was gambling with someone. After we were done Charlie said, "I didn't know you could play like that." I just laughed.
 
punter said:
Jay, in your road days, did you travel alone? If not, who were some of your road partners?
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Mostly alone or with a girlfriend. It was easier that way. I could go where I wanted, bet what I wanted, and keep whatever I won.

I did do some traveling with Jimmy Reid and more with Ronnie Allen. Jimmy would play anyone at any game. Even if it was the wrong game at the wrong time. He could not resist a challenge. Ronnie was double smart on the other hand. He played the right guy at the right time for the right price. He always maxed out every situation.

Oh and of course Keith and I went to quite a few tournaments, and gambled on the side. Keith scared everybody, that's all I have to say. He didn't just beat pool players. He devoured them! And then Tang and I traveled to many events too. Tang played good in tourneys and for the cash.

Boy, I'm remembering all the guys I traveled with now. I made a couple of trips with Louie. We went to Texas together, and one ill fated trip to Chicago. He beat everyone but managed to get broke anyway. Don't ask. He lived with me in L.A. for a few months after that. Danny Medina and I went thru Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois for about a month in the 80's. It was a very profitable trip. VERY!

Took Bob Hunter to a couple of spots and staked him in some tourneys. He did fine also. Put Chris MacDonald in action and he took it off too. And Jr. Harris and I hung around for a while too. He kept butting heads with Bill Mielke, and I told him not to. Bill was steady, too steady.

That's about it for now.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Cecil and I did a lot of traveling up and down California in the 80's. We always won money too. I even took him to the McDermott Masters in '87 or '88. He finished 3rd or 4th. Maybe won $2,000, just enough to get us even for the trip.
 
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Jay leaned over and said, "I hear you've been looking for me."

Where I come from, they say that ol' Jay just shoots the numbers clean off those balls.

:rolleyes:

The Woim

P.S. - Ask Keith about The Woim next time you see him. I played him back before his potbelly got so large and I'm the first one to use the line "It's like a nightmare isn't it." as I broke him so bad I actually felt sorry for him.
 
Thoughts

JAM said:
I gotta question which I'm sure you can provide a great answer to, but it is something that has been gnawing at me for some time. :o

To be proficient in pool, I mean play championship level, do you believe that practice makes the difference between the lions and the lambs, or is it possible that some players just have a God-given talent that makes them the best?

Also, I have had the joy of meeting quite a few pool champions in my travels, and one trait that I have noticed that many pool greats have is intelligence. I do not mean book-learned intelligence. I mean their capacity to absorb knowledge is greater than others.

What do you think? Is it possible that some pool players, no matter how much they practice, will never attain the level that today's champions play at?

In sum, do the great players have more intelligence than average, a God-given talent, or none of the above?

JAM
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This is one subject I have given a lot of thought to over 46 years of playing and these are my thoughts:

1) What I think most real good players possess, especially the ones that get good in a short amount of time, is mechanical ability first, with Mathematical abilities showing up, although I have played quite a few real good players that couldn't add 2 digit numbers in their head.

2) Next is imagination, or vision. The ability to see it before you execute it, and all the components of it. The 'Natural' players have a lot of imagination, and strive to achieve it. When they are on, they can be nearly impossible to beat, but they have a tendency to be nearly all offensive type players, and a real good 'Logic' player that is defensively
minded can defeat them.

3) I think most players become more 'Logic' oriented as they become older, most not all.
 
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